For Those Who Do Think Avery was Framed & Evidence Planted - Discuss

[shadowraiths]

So, I see a headline that says Buting is writing a book and I can't help but think "uggh", after reading the article... it's not so bad LOL

http://wbay.com/2016/03/07/former-s...ok-on-dysfunction-of-criminal-justice-system/

lol. Yeah, I had a similar reaction, then learned that he is focusing upon the broken CJS. Which, imho, is pretty awesome. Hopefully the documentary has primed people to pay attention, and in the end, do something about it... for example pushing for changes in various laws.

 

[Sustained]

Kratz' job was to prosecute the case, not investigate the case. The evidence amassed more than implicated SA. Ultimately it was the jury's decision.

Then what was he doing at the Avery Salvage Yard during the investigation ?

 

[Madeleine74]

Then what was he doing at the Avery Salvage Yard during the investigation ?

The same thing prosecutor Juan Martinez was doing when he went to Travis Alexander's house during the murder investigation.

 

[Sustained]

The same thing prosecutor Juan Martinez was doing when he went to Travis Alexander's house during the murder investigation.

Juan was an assistant district attorney for Maricopa County and was @ Travis' house after Travis had already been found dead. IIRC, Kratz was on the police check-in log for the RAV4 on 11/5 before TH was even found. Why would he have been there with no body, no evidence of a crime yet, and him being the district attorney from another county ?

 

[Hippiemomof5]

Then what was he doing at the Avery Salvage Yard during the investigation ?

Yes I found that really odd. Is it common for prosecutors to take part in the investigation so early on???

 

[Jaiddie]

http://gmancasefile.com/moore-to-th...erer-an-fbi-agents-take-episode-6-part-1-of-3

"Moore to the Story: An FBI Agent's Take on MaM: Episode 6 Testing the Evidence Part 1"

I swear, I absolutely love this guy....he even takes INVESTIGATION NOTES as he goes along (just like REAL investigators do in REAL investigations...wink wink MCSD!) and that is what makes his analysis so enlightening to me (the fact that he uses his real career training to come to his conclusions). I have to also admit that I get some pleasure in finding out that MANY of his questions have been raised here first and discussed at length.

 

[missy1974]

from the link Jaiddie posted:

Because of Kratz’ incomprehensible decision to expose his case file like an exhibitionist in a trench coat, family and friends of Teresa Halbach were subjected to a horrific (though fictional) description of her death. “Stabbed in the stomach with a butcher knife….throat slit….still begging for her life…..not dying…” are gut-wrenching, heartbreaking mental images I doubt her loved ones will ever forget.

And why did they have to endure this? Why was this unverified, unsupported lie trotted out to the public before the first attempts to corroborate it were launched? If Kratz and Pagel had been willing to wait just a few days, the apocryphal ‘confession’ of Brendan Dassey would have been proven false. There was no hurry. In their minds, there was no threat to the public, they had their suspect, Steven Avery in custody. There was no reason, legally, forensically, or morally, not to wait until the outlandish fantasy dragged out of Brendan Dassey was tested. They didn’t even wait 24 hours.

 

[missy1974]

http://kcur.org/post/after-making-m...e-project-says-people-are-eager-help#stream/0

Interview with Midwest Innocence Project's Executive Director Oliver Burnette.

You know there are so many points along an investigation where something can go wrong or something warrants another look. And I used to think once a judgment was rendered, you know, it was so definitive...

It's because we want to trust the justice system. There is a lot of trust we put into judges, prosecutors, or investigators. It's really disconcerting when you see that trust broken, not if something went wrong by a horrible mistake but by something nefarious. That's where the ground swell of support is coming from, people want to make sure we don't have an individual prosecutor or a bad eyewitness manipulate the system. When we get it wrong and falsely convict someone, for that time — and in Floyd's case it was 15 years — for that 15 years someone is out there who did commit the crime. Who doesn't want to get it right? Nobody is for the wrong person in jail.

 

[Madeleine74]

Checks and balances are built into the system because people are human and mistakes can (and do) get made even when everyone is trying their very best.

That's why the burden is 100% on the state to prove the charges, the defendant never has to prove anything at all, the jury has to be unanimous to convict, every conviction can be appealed and the state pays, there are multiple appeal levels possible. If a constitutional right has been violated the accused will (often) prevail, eventually.

All those checks and balances make many families of victims feel like their loved one didn't get the same consideration and everyone is bending over backwards to protect the rights of the "killer." Ironic, that.

No system is perfect and if there is one that's perfect I'd like someone to tell us what that is and who has that system.

 

[shadowraiths]

Checks and balances are built into the system because people are human and mistakes can (and do) get made even when everyone is trying their very best.

That's why the burden is 100% on the state to prove the charges, the defendant never has to prove anything at all, the jury has to be unanimous to convict, every conviction can be appealed and the state pays, there are multiple appeal levels possible. If a constitutional right has been violated the accused will (often) prevail, eventually.

All those checks and balances make many families of victims feel like their loved one didn't get the same consideration and everyone is bending over backwards to protect the rights of the "killer." Ironic, that.

No system is perfect and if there is one that's perfect I'd like someone to tell us what that is and who has that system.

I totally agree. No system is perfect, some are far from perfect, and some are simply corrupt. This one, to my mind, appears to fall into the latter.

 

[AutumnDawn]

Very interesting take. The tail lights were seen in the field in front, not in the back though....

There is a street that dead ends into the field--I wonder if someone was coming home at that time. The thought also occurred to me that it was a kid playing on a 4 wheeler.

Based on November 5/6, 11:30am interview with SA (http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Report-Reviewed-by-Detective-ONeill.pdf), the following was reported by SA: 'on Thursday night at about 8:00 p.M. when he was with his brother Chuck leaving-the driveway to go to Menards that steven had seen lights (tail- lights) back by his home. steven said that he had told chuck what he had seen and that they turned around and went back to Steve's residence where Steve said that he got a flashlight out of the flat bed truck they were in and steve checked behind his trailer and along the tree line'

 

[missy1974]

I totally agree. No system is perfect, some are far from perfect, and some are simply corrupt. This one, to my mind, appears to fall into the latter.

I agree.

And even when the system is not perfect and 'mistakes' are made, it doesn't mean we should just sit back and say "meh, it's not perfect, nothing I can do", and accept it. I'm not sure there is anything I can do from Canada, in my house, sitting on my couch with a laptop, but I do think that the attention that this series has received has seriously highlighted the issue with not only this case, but so many others.

How many of Zellner's cases had no one heard of before she came along? Her tweets being ripped apart and reposted and news stories that have been generated from simple cryptic tweets has highlighted the issues.... the conferences that Strang has been a part of with lawmakers (I know of Minnesota for sure, and I think a few other states.... NOT Wisconsin though)...... Buting planning on writing a book about the issues he has run into over his years being a lawyer..... there is some good that has come out of this already...... awareness.

 

[Jaiddie]

I agree.

And even when the system is not perfect and 'mistakes' are made, it doesn't mean we should just sit back and say "meh, it's not perfect, nothing I can do", and accept it. I'm not sure there is anything I can do from Canada, in my house, sitting on my couch with a laptop, but I do think that the attention that this series has received has seriously highlighted the issue with not only this case, but so many others.

How many of Zellner's cases had no one heard of before she came along? Her tweets being ripped apart and reposted and news stories that have been generated from simple cryptic tweets has highlighted the issues.... the conferences that Strang has been a part of with lawmakers (I know of Minnesota for sure, and I think a few other states.... NOT Wisconsin though)...... Buting planning on writing a book about the issues he has run into over his years being a lawyer..... there is some good that has come out of this already...... awareness.

:clap:

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Based on November 5/6, 11:30am interview with SA (http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Report-Reviewed-by-Detective-ONeill.pdf), the following was reported by SA: 'on Thursday night at about 8:00 p.M. when he was with his brother Chuck leaving-the driveway to go to Menards that steven had seen lights (tail- lights) back by his home. steven said that he had told chuck what he had seen and that they turned around and went back to Steve's residence where Steve said that he got a flashlight out of the flat bed truck they were in and steve checked behind his trailer and along the tree line'

Yes, I read that but then O'Neil had SA do a drawing and that drawing shows an arrow in the field in FRONT of SA's house. They totally contradict each other..and they were in the same interview!

 

[Jaiddie]

[video=youtube;1rrvmwRVcxA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=1rrvmwRVcxA&app=desktop[/video]

This is an excellent Last Stop timeline analysis for TH movements on 10/31. The poster uses the phone records, eye witness accounts, maps, and probable travel time to show viewers how he reached his conclusions.

 

[Wendy101]

wow!!
Have to admit tho... Its was painful to listen to the music in the beginning!

 

[shadowraiths]

wow!!
Have to admit tho... Its was painful to listen to the music in the beginning!

Yeah, no kidding!

Eta ~ I admittedly hate characterizing Brendan as "lying" during the Nov 6th interview bc he initially said he did not remember seeing Ms. Halbach and it wasn't until they continued pushing him, saying the bus driver saw her, so why wouldn't he have noticed. Their tone inflection, everything changes... becomes more menacing.

Also, this is one reason I just wish they would have used pings. Remembering exact times, or for that matter, days? I, personally, would be a horrible witness... unless I managed to snap a pic with my cell phone. Simply bc getting exact times is really... well, near impossible. Again, imho.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Am I reading this right? There was a Sippel that signed in on the property on 11-05-05?

On top of that, there is a court case in 2005 between the Sippels and Halbachs. Not necessarily TH immediate family, but possibly extended family. Then on top of that--a KS, that was convicted in 2002 of 3rd Degree Sexual Assault. I wonder if any of that is related to TH's disappearance and murder.

https://wcca.wicourts.gov/pager.do;...19F&offset=50&sortColumn=0&sortDirection=DESC

 

[Sarah]

Posting this here because it’s probably not big enough to deserve its own thread and it fits more with the framing scenarios than in the ‘SA did it camp’

I don’t think I’ve seen much discussion here about the tip-line call with the sighting of TH pulled over at the side of the road photographing a cow. For anyone who hasn't heard it, it’s mentioned in the Remiker/Weigart phone call that can be found here : http://stevenaverycase.com/phone-calls-between-investigators/#sthash.XF9z47aZ.ELa1wH1T.dpbs

I’ve always dismissed it because it never seems to have been followed up to either confirm or eliminate and there’s simply not enough information to draw any conclusions. Anyway, it came to my mind again yesterday when I found this old article from 2005 http://host.madison.com/news/local/...al&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=user-share

Relevant section :

Sarah Kluth now lives in Chicago but has remained close to Halbach since the two met in college in Green Bay.
"I'll never forget her genuineness, her sincerity, and how she honestly loved people," Kluth said Saturday. "And she was such a faithful friend. I remember once I had to visit dairy farms for my job and I called Teresa and asked if she would go along and take some photographs. And there she was with her camera tromping through manure with me. It was just so cool to have a friend like that, who would laugh and say, I don't care where we are or what we're doing, I'm with you and that's what is important.”

It seems such a bizarre activity for TH to have been sighted doing even with her farming upbringing, but the above lends it a bit more credibility IMO. I can imagine her thinking her friend might get a kick out of seeing such a photo especially if it was a particular breed or reminiscent of something from back at that time. Kind of : “Hey, I spotted this and I thought of you. Remember when we were out on those dairy farms, tromping through manure to photograph those cows”

It’s not enough to change my opinion on the case, but thought it was interesting enough to share here.

 

[missy1974]

BCA ~ doing a quick search of the transcripts, there is/was a Lt. Sippel with Calumet County. From what I am reading, he was the dispatch lieutenant for the Calumet Sheriff's Department and he shared the responsibility for the perimeter security with Lt. Bowe. It looks like maybe he has something to do with the open area and vehicle searches in the yard too.

The other Sippel.... is Craig Sippel, he called in to AutoTrader for the first appointment she had that day, but it was Schmitz's address because that is where the car was located.

Again... it seems to be a 1 or 2 degrees of separation LOL

Sarah ~ thanks for sharing again, I know it's been shared on here before but sometimes it gets buried and we forget! I do remember reading that and then hearing that "sighting", it really didn't seem that out of the ordinary to me that she would stop and take photo's of a cow LOL I'm also a prairie girl.... and I have a husband (who is not a photographer but always has his camera with him lol) who stops on the highway all the time to take pictures of cows, horses, deer, moose, storms.... you name it, he's got a pic of it... it's annoying to be honest LOL

We have very little information about TH, and the article you found is one of the few that actually talk about TH. I wonder if this would have been something out of the ordinary for her to do?