GA - Jonah, 3, & Nicole Payne, 2, Warrenton, 23 April 2005

[Timex]

Darlin, just make sure you cry real tears. That should do.

LOL would never happen

 

[Miss Daisey]

I think the kids could have made it to the pond by themselves. What doesn't sound right is the length of time the Mom said she was in the bathroom. I've heard 5 minutes...then 15 minutes. If either was the case, she could have probably found them before they got very far....had she started looking for them. Maybe she just didn't start searching for them until much later than she said she did.

I hope she didn't (do) anything to the kids. We will know soon enough.

 

[Lesleegp]

Did you see the mom on tv? She was acting like she was crying, but there were no tears. What was there, though, was eye make up. Not to mention a bow in her hair. Not that I would wear a bow in my hair anyway (not since the 1960s), but I really don't think if my children had been found dead I would have bothered to do the makeup and hair thing.
Very hinky. And I agree with Nan, very Susan Smith.

I can still hear/see Susan Smith in my mind....."Yo mama loves you and yo daddy loves you." Sends chills over me.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I think the kids could have made it to the pond by themselves. What doesn't sound right is the length of time the Mom said she was in the bathroom. I've heard 5 minutes...then 15 minutes. If either was the case, she could have probably found them before they got very far....had she started looking for them. Maybe she just didn't start searching for them until much later than she said she did.

I hope she didn't (do) anything to the kids. We will know soon enough.

Five minutes is too long to leave children that age unattended. My youngest two were only a year apart and I would bring them with me, put them in a dry tub with some toys and let them play while I did whatever it was that I needed to do. If I was showering, they played on the floor of the bathroom.

Regarding the mother going out in public . . . why? Why go outside? I'll never understand why people feel they "owe" it to the media to expose thier grief for the world to see.

 

[Lesleegp]

In cases where it is a tragedy/accident, etc., I don't think you can fairly ask why parents do what they do. They are numb, in shock. They are doing whatever they think will help bring their child home. Now, after they have been found deceases, I have no idea why they would come out like that, other than being in shock.

In cases where parents are involved, then I think they try to appear "normal" and do what they think others have done in the past.

 

[Sally]

Regarding the mother going out in public . . . why? Why go outside? I'll never understand why people feel they "owe" it to the media to expose thier grief for the world to see.

Maybe because the public is a bunch of vultures, just salivating for the next "good" story. If she didn't come out she'd be criticized as having something to hide.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

In cases where it is a tragedy/accident, etc., I don't think you can fairly ask why parents do what they do. They are numb, in shock. They are doing whatever they think will help bring their child home. Now, after they have been found deceases, I have no idea why they would come out like that, other than being in shock.

In cases where parents are involved, then I think they try to appear "normal" and do what they think others have done in the past.

In the "Lunsford" disappearance/murder, I could understand why Mark came out and spoke. There were so many people from the surrounding area searching and so many "media" were truly concerned and not (in my opinion) simply looking for ratings.

As for cases where parents are involved, remember Darlie Routier? I'll betcha no mother ever sprays silly string on her child's grave 8 days after he/she is murdered. :innocent: :innocent:

 

[Miss Daisey]

Five minutes is too long to leave children that age unattended. My youngest two were only a year apart and I would bring them with me, put them in a dry tub with some toys and let them play while I did whatever it was that I needed to do. If I was showering, they played on the floor of the bathroom.

Regarding the mother going out in public . . . why? Why go outside? I'll never understand why people feel they "owe" it to the media to expose thier grief for the world to see.

I don't argue that, Jeana. I did that too...locking them in with me in the bathroom. They'd often start flushing the Q-tips...or anything else they got their little paws on before I'd even gotten wet in the shower. I started waiting until my husband was home to watch them before I did anything for myself of a..ahhh...personal nature???
My youngest 2 are less than 2 yrs apart. It's an absolute fact that they can be gone in a second...or get hurt in the time it takes to just answer the phone. Everyday was a foot race keeping up with them.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

....the algae was so thick and so green that he'd thought it was a solid surface like grass. He could not believe he'd gone into the water. These little ones may have thought the same thing.

Sorry, Kgeaux ... did not read this far into the thread before posting my speculation this morning! :doh:

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I don't argue that, Jeana. I did that too...locking them in with me in the bathroom. They'd often start flushing the Q-tips...or anything else they got their little paws on before I'd even gotten wet in the shower. I started waiting until my husband was home to watch them before I did anything for myself of a..ahhh...personal nature???
My youngest 2 are less than 2 yrs apart. It's an absolute fact that they can be gone in a second...or get hurt in the time it takes to just answer the phone. Everyday was a foot race keeping up with them.

Here's a story my husband still teases me about. One time my husband was out of town. My daughter was crawling age (about 10-11 months????), our live-in nanny was sweeping up the kitchen and then going out with friends. She yelled goodbye to me while I was in the laundry room and then went out the front door, but I didn't see who she was with. My living room was such that there were two ways into and out of hallways and the kitchen, but I had baby gates so there was no way the kids could get out. I went into the living room and only my 1 1/2 year old son was in there. I couldn't find my daughter anywhere. Since my nanny was fairly new to our home (6 months or so), my first thought was that she took her OR left the door open and my daughter was crawling down the block. I ran all over the house looking for her and couldn't find her anywhere. Within about 1 minute, I called 911 and the dispatcher was telling me to check in the toilets , dryer, etc. I don't even think I took a breath. I could barely hold the telephone I was shaking so hard. I didn't go into the master bedroom/bathroom because the door was shut and I knew she couldn't have gotten in there. Finally, the dispatcher told me to go check each room one more time while I was waiting for the police. I went into my bedroom and she wasn't there. I proceeded into my bathroom and there she was. Sitting there happy as anything playing with a box of tampons. Right then, the door bell rang and it was the police. I opened the door with her in my arms, handed her to one of the cops and passed out cold. To this day, I can't tell that story out loud because I cry so hard I can't finish.

This is ALL it took for me to make sure I knew where my kids were ALWAYS and why at ages 10 and 11, I still don't let them play outside without me or another adult.

 

[tezi]

I can still hear/see Susan Smith in my mind....."Yo mama loves you and yo daddy loves you." Sends chills over me.

Leslee, that still sends chills down my spine. That woman changed the way I look at any mother who says her child is missing.

BTW, great to see you!!!!! :blowkiss:

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Jersey, This is an EXCELLENT thing to do. I am going to pass this system along to everyone I know with small children. I was reading Katherine's post just a minute ago and when she mentioned that it's often when there are MANY adults around that tragedies happen,I realized she was so right, but I hadn't come up with a "plan" for how we could change that....your system is perfect. Thanks so much for sharing how you and your family handle this!

You're very welcome, kgeaux. It was a solution I had come up with when the baby was first starting to climb the stairs. I was doing some dishes while she was playing on the floor behind me. My husband had come into the kitchen, and then left again. The baby was also gone so I had assumed that he took her. Meanwhile, he assumed she was still playing on the floor behind me. In reality, she was almost at the top of the steps. Thank God she didn't get hurt. It was at that point that I imposed my new "system" on everyone - lol. I'm very glad to share it if it can help!

P.S. When we first started doing this, if my son was playing with the baby, and she crawled off to a room where my older daughter was, he would simply yell to my older daughter that the baby was in there, and that she had to watch her. BUT he didn't bother to get a response! So I had to explain to him that you MUST get verification from the other person that THEY KNOW that they are now watching the baby or it does no good. I think we've worked out the kinks now.

 

[browneyes]

Because things happen...we sometimes forget when we are tired or sick or just distracted...life takes over. And in the Lunsford case I wonder if it is similar to my daughters BF's household. He lives in a similar setup and NEVER uses his front door. The door stays locked at all times, he feels no need to check it everynight because they never use it. I've often wondered if this was the case in the Lunsford household...that the door that was unlocked was a seldom used door. I do recall Mark saying when he found it open something to the effect that "this door isn't unlocked"...making me wonder if Couey didn't break in at some point and unlock the door in anticipation of his crime. We may never know.

At any rate, I don't think we can blame the mom for taking a bathroom break...and remember that a lot of people who live in rural areas like this just don't feel the need to be as cautious as those of us who live in more populated areas. Doesn't mean the shouldn't, just means they have a different way of life.

I am not blaming the Mom at all for taking a bathroom break. And you are right, parents can't be with their children all the time. However, if the Mom knew those young children could open the door, I think she should have used extra precaution when leaving them in the living room. It's sorta like why parents use baby gates at stairs and other places to keep children safe.

I also wish the neighbors who saw the the children outside alone, would have gathered them up to make sure their Mom knew they were outside. Oh well, what if, what if, what if.

But, like you said, things happen. And I am so sad about this outcome.

 

[Timex]

I have to admit, I must be a bad mother, as I just dont even try to watch my kids every minute of their lives. I didnt take them to the bathroom with me. I let them play outside. I let them get out of my sight. They've spent hours building forts and tree houses in the woods with their buddies. Ive packed them lunches and let them head off on an adventure looking for snakes and horned toads. They've "camped out" in our back yard, as well as in their friends back yards. Last summer, my then 16 year old went on his first camping trip with just he and his buddies, no adults, some 100 miles away. Of course I worried, but it was something they needed to do, and something I, as a parent, needed to let them do. The experiences they gain from such adventures are priceless. My daughter has gone away to band camp since grade 6. Do I know everyone at the camp? no way...it's just not possible to do so. Again, I worried, but felt the experience was one she will remember forever.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

I just feel that children today are missing so much in the way of exploring their world

With that, I have to agree. And kids should be allowed to get into a little trouble now and again, but with parents always right up on them, they never have the chance to be presented with choices that they have to make themselves. It really is very sad.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/0405/26warren.html

... Brenda Johnson, who said she has known the family for about four years, said she and her husband went to the couple's home Saturday night after they learned the children were missing. She said she stayed with Kain while her husband joined the search that included 150 people, heat-seeking devices, infrared radar and dogs.

"She didn't seem emotional," Johnson said. She said Kain told her she thought a vindictive neighbor had taken the children and hidden them as a way to get back at her.

Johnson, who said she had baby-sat for the two children, said the mother would leave them unattended and that she did not keep a clean house...


(Nice friend. Telling this stuff to investigators is one thing. Telling it to reporters is quite another.)

 

[browneyes]

I can understand your point... but two hours?? 6pm? That's close to dinner and little kids at the age of 2 and 3 running around all day with shoes on? I guess I'm making too much out of it.

My girlfriend has left shoes on her daughter all day since she was about 3 months old....she also makes her wear slippers if she doesn't have shoes on. She just turned one last week and I never see her without shoes.

My kids did not wear their shoes in the house....except when they were learning to walk and needed the support.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

They were little, they wouldn't just walk up to the fence and see a hole ahead of time and try to get through it. again jmho.

I won't say that I'm not at all curious about the details coming out today, or that I didn't have questions even yesterday. I am just trying to reserve judgement until I've heard more. But here's a story for you about kids & memory:

When my baby was very little, we never allowed her to have any fast food, (and I still don't allow her to have it very often). I wouldn't allow my other children to have it around her, and we never bought fast food for the older ones while the baby was with us because I felt it would be unfair for her to watch her siblings enjoying something that she couldn't have.

When she was about 16 months old, we had been doing some Christmas shopping, and my older two were complaining that they were starving. So we stopped at Wendy's. I told the older two not to give her any, and that I would stop at 7-11 to buy the baby a banana to hold her over until we got home. Well, needless to say, the older kids just had to see if the baby would like french fries, and snuck a few to her before I noticed.

A couple of weeks later, I was driving down the same road with just my baby in the back seat. As we drove by, I heard her shout "Wendy's"! And when I looked in my rear-view mirror, she was smiling and pointing at Wendy's.

I've been continuously amazed ever since at the strength of that little girl's memory. When even a very young child enjoys something or is curious about something, I don't know that it EVER leaves their memory!

 

[Julie]

Timex,
I only think the mother was negligent in this case because of the age of the kids. My son is 3 therefore I keep a tighter reign on him than I do my 11 year old daughter. She runs around the neighborhood, climbs trees, rides her bike, and just basically acts like a kid. I have one rule though, she must always be with a friend when she does this, plus our neighborhood is mostly families with kids so we all mostly know each other and keep an eye out on each others kids.
I just can't condone a mother who has a 2 year old and a 3 year old letting them play outside alone and knowing that they can open the door and go into another part of the house for 15 minutes.

 

[Julie]

I won't say that I'm not at all curious about the details coming out today, or that I didn't have questions even yesterday. I am just trying to reserve judgement until I've heard more. But here's a story for you about kids & memory:

When my baby was very little, we never allowed her to have any fast food, (and I still don't allow her to have it very often). I wouldn't allow my other children to have it around her, and we never bought fast food for the older ones while the baby was with us because I felt it would be unfair for her to watch her siblings enjoying something that she couldn't have.

When she was about 16 months old, we had been doing some Christmas shopping, and my older two were complaining that they were starving. So we stopped at Wendy's. I told the older two not to give her any, and that I would stop at 7-11 to buy the baby a banana to hold her over until we got home. Well, needless to say, the older kids just had to see if the baby would like french fries, and snuck a few to her before I noticed.

A couple of weeks later, I was driving down the same road with just my baby in the back seat. As we drove by, I heard her shout "Wendy's"! And when I looked in my rear-view mirror, she was smiling and pointing at Wendy's.

I've been continuously amazed ever since at the strength of that little girl's memory. When even a very young child enjoys something or is curious about something, I don't know that it EVER leaves their memory!

I'm not saying that kids that young don't have good memories, but to know exactly where to go?? Has it been said that their parents took them there? Wasn't that place some kind of sanitation pond or something?? Not someplace parents would usually take their kids. IMO