Haleigh's little brother "Man in black took my sissy."

[elle1919]

The bottom line is that Jr. was interviewed by professionals within hours of the 911 call. We don't know what, if anything, he was able to tell them about Haleigh's disappearance. During visitation, Jr. told CS and Connie something about the perp. One story was a black man in squeaky shoes, a man in black and somewhere it evolved to a black man in black, a ski mask was tossed in as was the bouncing sofa and the man coming out of the wall to take Haleigh. CS took Jr. to the media and he said nothing, CS did all the talking; telling what Jr. said to her.

LE said that whatever information they were able to glean from Jr. was investigated/being investgated. They did not elaborate on the information nor confirm anything that Jr. told the professionals that morning or whether it was consistent with what CS was saying.

I don't see CS or Connie patiently waiting for Jr. to talk about that night, I think they questioned him.

RC was pretty mad at CS for taking Jr. on tv and telling what Jr. allegedly told her. It was stupid on her part for if it was a black man, or a man in black, or a black man in black - whatever - then the perp knows that he was seen and Jr. is the only living witness. This kind of information gives the perp an advantage to get out of dodge, kill and dispose, seek out the witness, etc. etc. But, it seemed that RC thought the whole "Jr. told me this" was bull. I suppose he heard from Jr. too.

Dots, you say that RC was pretty mad that CS took JR on tv. Did he ever make a statement about it, I might have missed it.

I wouldn't blame Crystal one bit if she asked Jr what happened that night, I am sure RC probably asked him that too. But Connie is a completely different story, she had no reason, in my opinion to be questioning this little boy about what he saw. Nevertheless, Law Enforcement interviewed him before GGS, Connie, or anyone else. I am hopeful they have a accurate depiction of what Jr saw before his memory might have been corrupted in anyway.

 

[Whisperer]

Depending on jr's level of development, he is old enough to know what happened to Haleigh that night if he witnessed it..imo.

I have no idea of his ability to comprehend due to no kge of his behavior. From my recollection, his personality has been completed...it has been said that part of development is complete by the age of four. Reasoning starts at about age seven. There have been cases where children this young have been helpful in giving information. For some reason, I don't think so in this case. He may not have been there or he is not able to express himself. Maybe in time, he will be able to describe something helpful.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

We just don't know how a child is going to react in a situation like that...Remember Elizabeth Smart. Her sister waited over 2 hours before going to her parents. If Jr was only partially awake he could have dozed right back off to sleep and may not have relized what he was witnessing. Children react in different ways when they are being abducted or witnessing an abduction...we can't say for certain how they will or will not react, or what they would or would not do. JMO

Yes, and it took Elizabeth's sister many months before she recalled exactly who the intruder was; she has seen him but didn't remember she had seen him before. Junior is a little guy; He might not even have understood the significance of what he saw.

As to child reasoning, as in all child development issues, there is a range for how and when kids develop reasoning skills of various types. Here is a passage from a child development site that features Piaget's theories; the focus here is on what is called the "preoperational stage," from ages 2-7, quite a big gap:

Speech becomes more social, less egocentric. The child has an intuitive grasp of logical concepts in some areas. However, there is still a tendency to focus attention on one aspect of an object while ignoring others. Concepts formed are crude and irreversible. Easy to believe in magical increase, decrease, disappearance. Reality not firm. Perceptions dominate judgment. (my bold)

He might have seen something but not been able to interpret it correctly, if it was a new phenomena and he was afraid. I doubt he has the concept "kidnapping."

 

[Whisperer]

If JR was at a normal level of development, he could have been helpful to LE, If he were there and awake at time of the crime.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

I believe that Junior saw the abduction, in the absence of any reason to doubt his statement. Certainly, he probably could give his own account of what happened that evening insofar regarding his own whereabouts and likely his sister's.

 

[kamky]

I believe that Junior saw the abduction, in the absence of any reason to doubt his statement. Certainly, he probably could give his own account of what happened that evening insofar regarding his own whereabouts and likely his sister's.

It sounds like that to me also. Something that just occurred to me, though, is if Jr saw the abduction, wouldn't he also know whether Misty was or was not in the Motor Home at the time?

And since LE has repeatedly asked if anyone can verify that Misty was not in the MH, this implies to me that LE thinks she was not. This tells me that Jr told LE that Misty was not in the MH, which means that Misty did leave the children alone in the MH.

Moreover, since we know that Tommy has been placed at the MH at 10 - 10:30ish and he said that Misty was not home, this implies that he was there when the two children were alone. I wonder what else he knows that he might not be telling?

 

[txsvicki]

I believe what Jr. had to say, but just wish we knew if he said Misty was in the trailer at the time. Even if a man in black did take Haleigh, Misty still has the inconsistencies and the business with the blankets. She, herself even places Jr. as being awake in her story. That can't be just a coincidence. Surely Misty could have been charged with something if Jr. said that she left the kids home alone. I think she may have been at the trailer the whole time unless she left to run over to Tommy's not long before 10:00.

 

[kamky]

I believe what Jr. had to say, but just wish we knew if he said Misty was in the trailer at the time. Even if a man in black did take Haleigh, Misty still has the inconsistencies and the business with the blankets. She, herself even places Jr. as being awake in her story. That can't be just a coincidence. Surely Misty could have been charged with something if Jr. said that she left the kids home alone. I think she may have been at the trailer the whole time unless she left to run over to Tommy's not long before 10:00.

I think the problem LE is has with being able to charge Misty with leaving the children alone in the MH is having proof. Deductive reasoning tells us that it is likely that she did (Assume that if Jr told LE that a man in black took Sissy, then Jr was in MH and would know that Misty was not in MH. LE thinks Misty was not in MH because they have asked for witnesses. Therefore, LE thinks Misty was not in MH & left children alone.) But LE needs some proof to verify and act on what they believe.

 

[pittsburghgirl]

Well, bingo, kamky and txsvicki, that's the ticket. Putting aside the man in black for a moment--Junior could have been half asleep or fell back asleep and dreamed about what he did see. Who knows? But he surely has to know something about that evening, and particularly if he woke up at ANY point and Misty was not there.

Regarding Tommy's trip to the MH, maybe Ron called him and he never went, because he very well knew that Misty wasn't home. This is really a very easy point to debate. There have to be phone records about the Ron/Tommy conversation. We know Misty's phone was off. It makes sense that Ron would call around to check on her. (Let's for once not shift this discussion to Ron and look at Tommy and Misty.) Now, there are three possibilities:
1. He went over to check on Misty and the kids and told the truth.
2. He didn't go over to check on them.
3. He was already there.

If #1, that would mean that he didn't know where Misty was.
If #2, that would mean either that:

• He knew that she was not at the MH (or was there with someone who shouldn't be there), or didn't know and didn't care enough to go. If he knew where she was, he might be covering for her. It's worth thinking about that by implying that she knows more than she is telling, or that it's odd that she didn't she hear someone pounding on the door, they actually deflect attention from what THEY know, rather like how Misty has gone about deflecting attention to her brother and Crystal's family. If he's covering for her, he's covering for something worse than leaving the kids unattended, because his story about his trip to the MH leaves that possibility wide open.
• If he DIDN'T go over and lied to Ron about that, he might be making up the only story he could make up, which is that he went there and nobody answered the door--because he couldn't claim that he saw or talked to anyone.

If #3, well, that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish. I would be very interested to know when the "friends" who were at the MH left. And if all of them left.

Kamky, take your reasoning and put it with Elle's observation that it's odd that Misty would turn the phone all the way off, when she could have just silenced it or put it away. Most young women do not cut off all of their friends and contacts likely, especially if they are at home with no other young person or adult around. (We keep our cells on and in our bedroom at night, for the obvious reasons.) And of course what if a friend wanted to call or text her? I think it is very likely that she turned the phone off, left it there, came back and found Haleigh missing. Since I am officially believing Junior today, Haleigh and Junior would have to be at the MH if Junior's story is correct, so if Misty left, she left the kids. And LE can't prove it. Yet.

I've always thought the Misty timeline was bogus because Mark McLish, the statement analysis expert, calls 3 the "liar's number." I think whatever happened to Haleigh happened between 10 and 2; if she was out of the MH, then who knows when the abduction happened?

 

[txsvicki]

I can't see Misty going off and leaving her cell phone at the trailer if she were just going and expected all to be fine when she got back before Ron came home from work. She'd have no reason to not want her pings tracked or to leave her phone behind. If Misty left and didn't take her cell phone there's got to be a very good reason she didn't want to be tracked to where ever she went.

Also: Did Misty call her brother after Ron got home from work or just before?

 

[kamky]

Well, bingo, kamky and txsvicki, that's the ticket. Putting aside the man in black for a moment--Junior could have been half asleep or fell back asleep and dreamed about what he did see. Who knows? But he surely has to know something about that evening, and particularly if he woke up at ANY point and Misty was not there.

Regarding Tommy's trip to the MH, maybe Ron called him and he never went, because he very well knew that Misty wasn't home. This is really a very easy point to debate. There have to be phone records about the Ron/Tommy conversation. We know Misty's phone was off. It makes sense that Ron would call around to check on her. (Let's for once not shift this discussion to Ron and look at Tommy and Misty.) Now, there are three possibilities:
1. He went over to check on Misty and the kids and told the truth.
2. He didn't go over to check on them.
3. He was already there.

If #1, that would mean that he didn't know where Misty was.
If #2, that would mean either that:

• He knew that she was not at the MH (or was there with someone who shouldn't be there), or didn't know and didn't care enough to go. If he knew where she was, he might be covering for her. It's worth thinking about that by implying that she knows more than she is telling, or that it's odd that she didn't she hear someone pounding on the door, they actually deflect attention from what THEY know, rather like how Misty has gone about deflecting attention to her brother and Crystal's family. If he's covering for her, he's covering for something worse than leaving the kids unattended, because his story about his trip to the MH leaves that possibility wide open.
• If he DIDN'T go over and lied to Ron about that, he might be making up the only story he could make up, which is that he went there and nobody answered the door--because he couldn't claim that he saw or talked to anyone.

If #3, well, that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish. I would be very interested to know when the "friends" who were at the MH left. And if all of them left.

Kamky, take your reasoning and put it with Elle's observation that it's odd that Misty would turn the phone all the way off, when she could have just silenced it or put it away. Most young women do not cut off all of their friends and contacts likely, especially if they are at home with no other young person or adult around. (We keep our cells on and in our bedroom at night, for the obvious reasons.) And of course what if a friend wanted to call or text her? I think it is very likely that she turned the phone off, left it there, came back and found Haleigh missing. Since I am officially believing Junior today, Haleigh and Junior would have to be at the MH if Junior's story is correct, so if Misty left, she left the kids. And LE can't prove it. Yet.

Seems to me, Pittsburghgirl, that there could be a number of variants of Possibility #1:
1A - Tommy went over to check on Misty and the kids and told the truth.
1B - He realized Misty was gone and he took advantage of the situation by entering the MH, (either alone or with an accomplice).
1C - Misty was there, but then she and Tommy did something they shouldn't have (e.g., drugs).
1D - Misty was there but then she and Tommy both left the MH and did something they shouldn't have (e.g., drugs).
1E - Misty was gone and Tommy was in cahoots with someone else who wanted to gain access to the kids, so he supplied the means by letting them know that Misty was not in the MH and that it was unlocked. His motive would have been money or drugs.

Tommy only revealed to LE that he had gone to the MH after he was jailed with a high bond. There could be much more he's not telling.

LE said that Ron called Tommy after 8:30 to ask if Misty was at the Croslins, since he had not been able to get ahold of her, so I think this rules out #3 (He was already there.)

Re: Possibility #2, we do not know if Tommy called Ron back because LE hasn't told us this, but LE would have phone records to say if he did call him back or not. I assume Tommy would have realized this and not fibbed about this to LE. If Tommy already knew Misty had left the MH and knew where she was, then either there would have been an earlier phone call between him & Misty OR maybe she talked about where she wanted to go that night when Tommy was at the MH around 5-ish. In fact, maybe her "babysitting" of a "relative's" kids was her planned alibi, but then Ron nixed that which shot her alibi and started the fight at 8:30 that night over the phone with Ron....hmmm.

Misty may have turned off her phone for a while due to irritation with Ron (like hanging up on a boyfriend in the old days & not answering the phone). And, if she left it off with this as her excuse, it would have provided a coverup for her being out of the MH.

I agree with you completely that whatever happened to Haleigh happened between 10 and 2 because that fits with a neighbor saying they heard a woman calling loudly at around 2 - 2:30-ish.

I think everybody's phone records tell a lot about what happened and hope that LE has done a real good job digging into these and analyzing them!

 

[txsvicki]

None of the scenarios account for the blanket washing story, taking blanket off the window, and the cleaning though. Sometimes troubled kids and teens will add bits of truth to their "inconsistencies". If Misty had big plans to go out why would she be doing all the things that Jr. probably saw her doing with blankets and some type of cleaning up. She even places him as being awake and up just as she got into bed and crashed. Only now, she places him coming back at some point and being on the other side of her when she woke up to find Haleigh gone.

 

[Whisperer]

Where was the little guy, anyway. Not one mention of him or sound of him that early morning. It would be natural to ask him where his sister was....the first thing...wake him up and ASK. Stories do not add up. Too many deflections, too many coincidences.

 

[debs]

Where was the little guy, anyway. Not one mention of him or sound of him that early morning. It would be natural to ask him where his sister was....the first thing...wake him up and ASK. Stories do not add up. Too many deflections, too many coincidences.

According to GGM, she asked him if he saw anything.

 

[elle1919]

It sounds like that to me also. Something that just occurred to me, though, is if Jr saw the abduction, wouldn't he also know whether Misty was or was not in the Motor Home at the time?

And since LE has repeatedly asked if anyone can verify that Misty was not in the MH, this implies to me that LE thinks she was not. This tells me that Jr told LE that Misty was not in the MH, which means that Misty did leave the children alone in the MH.

Moreover, since we know that Tommy has been placed at the MH at 10 - 10:30ish and he said that Misty was not home, this implies that he was there when the two children were alone. I wonder what else he knows that he might not be telling?

Good Morning Kam

Bold by me...What we have is Junior's statement that A man in black took his sissy. A visual report, right? Junior would have needed to absolutely see the abductor to make a statement about a man(rather than a woman) in black( rather than red). So we know Junior saw something on the night his sister disappeared because he reports the color and sex of the perpetrator.....what else does he report along with the man in black? HEARING...he "heard" his couch bouncing (and I bet the couch in RC's house does make a noise when you bounce on it) and he "heard" shoes squeaking, what do you bet that the linoleum in the kitchen or in the hall out the back door makes a noise when you walk on it with rubber soled shoes? So did Junior tell Law Enforcement if he saw Misty when he saw and heard the man in black? Maybe or maybe not but in my opinion even if Junior didn't see Misty he wouldn't say that she wasn't in the house because as far as he knew she was when he went to sleep right? And unless he saw her leave I doubt he would say she was gone because he didn't mention seeing or hearing that.

Know what else I wonder, Remember the grandfather clock chime that law Enforcement made a statement about back in the beginning? I wonder if the origin of that tip came from Junior as well. maybe sometime in the night he heard what he described as a grandfather clock? Didn't one of RC's neighbors say that LE came to his home asking if he had a doorbell that sounded like a grandfather clock or a cell phone with a grandfather chime?

 

[debs]

The grandfather clock was JBean's, I believe. It was picked up on the audio as she was recording.

 

[elle1919]

The grandfather clock was JBean's, I believe. It was picked up on the audio as she was recording.

I disagree. It was initially thought that the chime was heard on a recording that was posted of Patty G's. However, after reading the entire doorbell chime thread it, is evident that the question raised by authorities was never answered.

http://www.clickorlando.com/news/18842351/detail.html

snip~POSTED: Tuesday, March 3, 2009
UPDATED: 1:23 pm EST March 3, 2009
JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- A tip led investigators on Monday to a mobile home located down the road from where missing 5-year-old Haleigh Cummings was last seen.

The homeowner there said detectives questioned him about a doorbell, WJXT-TV reported.

"It was just another tip they're following up on, which is good. They have to follow up on every tip. The only thing everybody cares about is this child that's missing, so it's not any inconvenience to me or my family. They're more than welcome to come any time they need to. A tip is a tip," said neighbor Marty Hubbard.

He said the investigators were looking specifically for a doorbell that chimed like a grandfather clock, and that some tip or lead led them to his house. Hubbard said he doesn't have a doorbell. ~ end snip

Discussion on Doorbell chime begins here: Investigators Looking for Doorbell That Chimes Like a Grandfather Clock - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[debs]

Thanks........I meant PattyG. She has reaffirmed this many times.

 

[elle1919]

Thanks........I meant PattyG. She has reaffirmed this many times.

Bold by me...what did Patty G reaffirm?

 

[debs]

Bold by me...what did Patty G reaffirm?

That it was her chimes. You could probably PM her and ask.