IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #15

[SapphireSteel]

I still think the quickest and easiest way to deal with DM would have been a bullet...apart from anything else, there would only be one body to hide, not two.

:moo:

 

[cindersoot]

I have thought the same thing. I don't know; maybe someone missed the cancellation memo.

I agree. I also believe the families are all innocent. I mean why would they go through this just have all their dirty laundry broadcasted to the world.:bump::bump:

 

[roseofsharon]

The gate/s were not locked at the time.

The bikes were found in the trail by the gate leading to a rock jetty and water outlet on the lake. The gate wasn’t locked at the time, Abben said.
There’s a chain link fence on both sides of the trail. The purse was on the lake-side of the fence, about 10 feet to the east of the bikes and about 2 feet from the fence, officials said.

http://wcfcourier.com/news/local/au...cle_87408126-d217-11e1-aec0-0019bb2963f4.html

Dan Morrissey speaking -

“The area the bikes were found is fenced on both sides,” Dan Morrissey said. “It was right where the maintenance gate was, so that is a spot to me that looks like a trap, you know, for an abduction to happen; for someone to just come along right there and follow them down or whatever.

“It would probably be the worst spot for them to be, that little area right there,” he said.

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/ar...-believe-cousins-were-abducted?nclick_check=1

Do we know how this gate is normally locked; is it with a padlock and if so, is the gate locked as of this date and who is responsible for the actual lock and keeping the gate locked or unlocked?

More thoughts: Where is the key kept? Are there multiple keys?

 

[cindersoot]

I still think the quickest and easiest way to deal with DM would have been a bullet...apart from anything else, there would only be one body to hide, not two.

:moo:

Wow! Thats kinda harsh don't ya think?:what:

 

[iamnotagolem]

Which ones dont make sense if I may ask?

Why dont you think they were legitimate kidnapping attempts?

It isnt just this summer........attempted kidnappings of minors have been going on for years. It didnt just start happening this summer. I have read numerous articles for years about attempted abductions even those that have happened in my local area.

thanks

Again this is just my personal opinion, I could be way off base.

The report of the man on a motorcycle who was following his 5 y/o who was on a bicycle, reported the incident 3 hours after it allegedly happened. I feel like there are plausible explanations other than an attempted kidnapping.

The girl who was "touched" by a man outside a laundry mat.

Those specific ones I'm skeptical of believing, but they could be exactly what happened.

I honestly believe that hysteria causes a lot of reporting of attempted abductions. Say I had a floral shop and used a white van for deliveries, I see some people outside in their front yard and pull to the curb and ask "which way to Washington Street?" adult in yard points me in the right direction then they later see on the news that a white van has been linked to an abduction, they call the police and say that a white van tried to talk to their kids. It's true, I had a white van, I talked to the kids in the yard, but also the adult. It just isn't an incident related to the abductions.

Hopefully that scenario makes sense.

While I do feel that a lot of reported abduction attempts were misconstrued, or exaggerated, I still feel it's in the best interest of the public to report such things.

I do agree this isn't the first summer reports of abductions have been made, my guess there is a combination of media sensationalizing the stories because of Lizzie & Lyric that otherwise wouldn't hit the news and misunderstanding/misconstruing a situation.

 

[Thespyma]

Apparently not everyone screams.

Carlie Brucia Abduction - YouTube

In the video, the girl seems not to be afraid of her abductor. She seems to be convinced to go with him. We are not privy to what he said to her but she shows no fear and fear is what triggers the instinct to yell or cry out. She also is closer to teenage than an 8 year old. One of the girls was 8, not a teen and from what I could see she was not emotionally like a teen either. Lyric seemed older than her years and was using social media which is for teens and adults. I still believe the children went with someone they felt they could trust which is why no one noticed. It may also have some part in why the FBI thinks they are alive.
Of course I think it is quite possible a ring is involved and they were groomed and thus showed no fear or noticeable reaction. :moo:

 

[sreshowtime]

What do the 2 girls have in common? Their mothers are sisters. Could that have any bearing at all on this case. Just pondering.

 

[CoeTrawk]

Concerning the Maiden Woods and my thoughts thereto, Part 1.

Pic 1: the east end of the north fence. Look how easy it is to enter the woods. This is at "Curve 1" from my blind curves gallery.

Pic 2: the open field between the nature trail and Arbutus. There are tire tracks visible, but I'm sure the police drove down this to access the nature trail. What this should show is that there are plenty of houses here from where someone COULD have seen anything untoward happening in this area of the trail. Of course, could does not equal did, especially during work hours.

Pic 3 is one of the many little worn down areas in the woods. I will say that it is very easy to move around back there. The only annoying things are the spider webs you tend to run into. The woods are not very dense on the east half of them, nor is the whole wooded area particularly big. There is also some amount of trash. People use these woods.

Pic 4: from a similar vantage point as Pic 3, one can easily see the pump house. This side of the woods is anything but dense.

Pic 5 is a different story. This was taken from Maiden Lane. Can you see the pump house in this picture? It's there, I promise. The woods around Maiden Lane are fairly dense. Anything happening here could occur unseen.

Stay tuned for more woods pictures

 

[GrainneDhu]

My new theory is a gun was involved. The girls are riding, a man steps out of the gate with a gun. The girls stop right where they are, lay down the bikes and follow him to the woods.

I think you're right.

I will never, never forget an interview with the man who was with Jacob Wetterling the night Jacob disappeared (he was a boy then, now he's a man).

It was the single most terrifying thing I have ever seen on a screen. Worse for me than any horror movie. The absolute terror of the memory after 20something years just came right through and grabbed me.

The perpetrator told the two boys he didn't take to run across the field to the tree line and not to look back or he would shoot them. I think it was an act of supreme courage that both boys took a look behind them before they'd run entirely across the field. I know I would have been totally obedient and just kept on running.

People keep saying it would be difficult to control two girls. I think it would be no harder to control two than one if some sort of weapon were displayed.

 

[Thespyma]

Watch the video of Carlie Brucia's abduction.

Silent...

Her body language is void of fear. He may have given the old "Your parent, friend,etc. has been hurt, come with me". This looks like she had no idea she was being abducted.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Her body language is void of fear. He may have given the old "Your parent, friend,etc. has been hurt, come with me". This looks like she had no idea she was being abducted.

I think he just took her by surprise.

No more, no less. Maybe she had an ipod on.

Frightening.

 

[iamnotagolem]

Wow! Thats kinda harsh don't ya think?:what:

I don't think it's too far from reality that if you "snitch" that revenge may come your way. If he sold out his pals, I'd think shooting him would be much more likely than kidnapping his child & niece whom he didn't live with. Not that he deserves/needs to be shot, no one is saying that, it's just the more popular method of revenge.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I still can't get the idea out of my head that they had to have either gone with someone they knew OR there were people who held their hands over their mouths.

I just can't believe that if it were an abduction that neither girls wouldn't have screamed or started crying or SOMETHING that would have made noise. ESPECIALLY if TG did come riding by right about that time. I don't think that even if there was a knife or a gun that those girls (as terrified as they had to be) would have been completely silent.

However, if the people who were coming by had in earbuds or something the crying or even screaming wouldn't have made a difference in the world...

But wouldn't you think that if someone came by on the trail that at least ONE of the girls, if not both would have kicked, screamed, SOMETHING that would have drawn attention? Maybe wishful thinking...

I don't think there is any way to know or predict what people will do in such a crisis situation until they've been through it and their behaviour observed.

In thinking about Jacob Wetterling, around the same age, the two boys with him didn't scream or cry. They followed the perp's instructions until they were running off across the field.

In an emergency, there are three basic responses: fight, flight or freeze. Most people have a bit of all three in them but one response is more likely than the other two. Fight is actually the rarest response and very few humans have it as their instinctive first response. With a gun or other weapon, flight is taken away so that leaves freeze or fight. There are many more humans who will freeze than who will fight.

I also think that even if they'd screamed, the traffic sounds from I-380 would have tended to muffle them, probably making them sound less like terror and more like the normal sort of screaming that kids do when they play.

In any case, we can infer that either they did not make a sound or that sound was not remembered by anyone.

 

[Thespyma]

I think a distinct possibility is that someone knew the family and knew of Heather's illness and maybe used the "Your mother is at the hospital, come with me. We have to hurry." to get the girls to leave willingly. I can imagine that if the girls heard something had gone bad with an already sick mother, they would not hesitate to drop everything and go quickly and with no fuss. :moo:

 

[JaimeInLA]

This first gallery I call "Blind Curves." Based on the where we think/know TG was coming from, and since he went to a gas station right away, I think we can guess he went around the lake clockwise, riding westward on the southern side of the lake. These pictures are of possible "blind curves" in the order (east to west) that he would have encountered them. These aren't the only curves in the path, but the others are on flat ground and not even remotely "blind."

Curve 1 is by the Maiden Woods and open field. You can see the beginning of the double fenced area. This is a blind curve to me. To see bikes here would suggest the riders were in the woods. They may have walked around the fence and in. This is the curve I thought was most likely TG's curve when I went the other day (and referenced in my post.)

Curve 2 is within the double fenced area. At riding speed, this might be a blind curve, but you can see how a person can see the trail ahead thru the fence line. There is a little bit of trail unseeable though. My guess is the girls had hopped the fence if the bikes were here. There's no reason to drop them here and then run around the fence.

Curve 3 is more of a hill, but it does create a blind situation somewhat. This is an uphill section that leaves the double fenced area. If the bikes were here, the girls may have gone to the water (possibly via paddleboat). I will show in another of my picture posts how much easier it is to access the lake from this region as opposed to anywhere else. But the top of that hill is still a bit of distance from the easy-access point that my pics will (hopefully) reveal.

Curve 4 is where the path hooks north and heads towards town and/or the parking lot. This is the least blind curve of all to me. If the bikes were here, maybe the girls were chasing squirrels. There are no thick woods here but there's enough brush to make water entry annoying at the very least. This is also very far from the double fenced area where we're sure "something" happened. Not a good candidate to me.

I favor curve 1 or 3, dunno what y'all think.

Thanks for doing this! I think it has to be 1. That is the only truly blind curve. Which means the bikes were moved, either by the girls or the perp, after TG saw them.

 

[JodiR]

This first gallery I call "Blind Curves." Based on the where we think/know TG was coming from, and since he went to a gas station right away, I think we can guess he went around the lake clockwise, riding westward on the southern side of the lake. These pictures are of possible "blind curves" in the order (east to west) that he would have encountered them. These aren't the only curves in the path, but the others are on flat ground and not even remotely "blind."

If I remember correctly, didn't TG go to the restrooms at the lake? Don't recall anything about a gas station. JMO

 

[GrainneDhu]

Can you get dna from urine?

Urine itself does not contain DNA. However, cells shed from the lining of the bladder and urethra are almost always present and those cells do contain DNA.

So the answer is "usually."

 

[iamnotagolem]

I just don't believe that was an apropriate thing to say. Im sure Lyric wouldn't want him shot. JMO

No one wants him shot, no one mentioned wanting him shot. The poster was merely stating that the girls being taken as revenge against Dan was highly unlikely since revenge usually comes in the form of a bullet.

 

[JaimeInLA]

Just don't understand why they would take the children, when they could just as easily take the adult/adults they are concerned about?

:waitasec:

Just MOO

What would hurt you more?:
1) Someone hurts you, or kills you
2) Someone steals your kid, and you have to go spend your life in prison, never being able to look for your kid, and never knowing what happened to her?

 

[SapphireSteel]

This first gallery I call "Blind Curves." Based on the where we think/know TG was coming from, and since he went to a gas station right away, I think we can guess he went around the lake clockwise, riding westward on the southern side of the lake. These pictures are of possible "blind curves" in the order (east to west) that he would have encountered them. These aren't the only curves in the path, but the others are on flat ground and not even remotely "blind."

If I remember correctly, didn't TG go to the restrooms at the lake? Don't recall anything about a gas station. JMO

It has been stated on this thread, the lake restrooms.