IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #15

[GrainneDhu]

I heard that too, and am puzzled.

What part is puzzling? (asked respectfully not snarkily)

I see it as a pretty normal expression of the importance of family supporting each other in times of need. Same reason I took in my niece: she is family in need and that's just what family does.

The Collins family was going through an ongoing health thing, so it seems normal to me for their family to gather around and provide ongoing support.

Life is so tough, we all need help to get through it.

 

[mahoolin]

Ten year olds have to make sense when they are making a big, dramatic gesture? Who knew? <LOL>

Seriously, even though no one in my family ever threatened to run away I understand it's a pretty common thing and not necessarily indicative of anything more than "I don't know how to make people understand how upset I am, so I will make this great big threat."

Sometimes it means more but most often, it's frustration that the child doesn't know how to express yet. It's not always a logical response because it's emotionally based.

I know when I am overwhelmed with emotion, my logic goes out the window.

Think anyone would be impressed if my 50something self threatened to run away? After all, it's never too late to have a happy childhood!

"Doesn't know how to express yet" I think is the key moment that seems to get lost in translation these days. Sorry, OT, but think thats so important to a child's future. Jumping off my soapbox now...
:rocker:

 

[Pensfan]

The fact remains that Heather hasn't had the surgery yet because her doctors are waiting for her stress levels to go down.

As I understand it (from my brother-in-law who specialises in anesthesia for heart transplants), there are various things that can go wrong with pacemakers and some are easier to fix than others. Some only require a local but even with those, the vast majority of doctors want the patient to be in good enough shape to survive a general because if something goes wrong during the procedure, that's exactly where it will be headed.

If I understood him correctly, then cardiac surgeons prefer all their patients to be in good enough condition to survive a general anesthesia just in case it is needed.

If she has cardiomyopathy (from the reason I suspect), then she has atrial damage affecting her SA node. There isn&#8217;t a surgery that can help her. Only a pacemaker can make her heart muscle contract (heart beat). I suspect she is in need of a routine pacemaker replacement because complications after the first few days of implanting a pacer are EXTREMELY rare. Her doctor has likely postponed it because now isn&#8217;t the most convenient time for this stressed family. Pacemakers have to be replaced every 5-10 years.

I don't doubt that she is beyond stressed out and I feel very sad for her.

Edit: I just checked on when her pacemaker was implanted and it was 2010. She may have a slightly dislodged pacemaker electrode.
http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/health-topics/images/pacemaker.jpg

 

[Sailorsgirl]

:goodpost:

Otto I couldn't agree more! I sat in your exact same spot with our 7 week old daughter. My husband had always been the "rock" but this time I had to be. I cried myself to sleep at night for a few hours. We were given a 30% chance of her making it surgery which had to be done within 12 hours due to CF pressure. To have a doctor look you in the eye and say "Folks, we have about 12 hours to get this surgery done and after that it is still only a 30% chance of her making it. What would you like to do?" My husband turned bright white and hit the ground. He is 6'2", 215lbs., shaved head, tattoos, peircings...definately what you would not perceive as an emotional person. I was left to make that decision alone, young and scared. At that minute I could only think of that 30% chance and prayed like hell! I looked the doctor dead in the eye and said "What in the hell are you waiting on? Let's get moving!"

Our princess is blind, non-verbal, severally mentally retarded, and will depend on me for the rest of her life...but I WOULD NEVER change my decision that saved her life in October 2004.

My husband always feels bad for "leaving me hanging" although I never once critized his reaction. It just goes to show that EVERY ONE RESPONDS DIFFERENTLY WHEN IT COMES TO THEIR OWN FLESH AND BLOOD NO MATTER WHAT THE SITUATION IS!

This quote hangs in our daughter's bedroom. And I think EVERY parent has these same feels at some point even the ones who seem so imperfect to others in society...

Your post made me cry. Thank you for sharing such an emotional part of your life. I wholeheartedly agree with every poster who has said that people react differently to situations. In 2005, I had a miscarriage. Right after surgery, my husband (now my exhusband) and I were at Walmart buying party supplies because I promised a friend's son that I would give him a Shrek birthday party. We had the party the next day. A week later, I was in tears and depressed for months. My ex started renovating the house. A year later, we were in the same position ... miscarriage. I immediately went into depression-mode, he started renovating the house. He built a wall around himself to deal with the pain (or not deal with it). I just cried all the time ... and continued to cry periodically for 3 years until I found myself in a second marriage and pregnant for the third time -- a pregnancy that had just about every complication imaginable. Our son was born 10 weeks early with PVL and retinopathy, basically he could have had cerebral palsy and become blind. My husband and I dealt with it the best we could ... tears when we needed them, but we stayed pretty strong for each other and because, no matter what, this was the hand we were dealt.

I don't fault the family for the lack of emotions or the distractedness or whatever. This is how they are dealing with a terrible situation. We have no idea if they cry themselves to sleep.

 

[MizStery]

Did their grandmother think it was them from the beginning and actually see them, though? I thought she'd said they left the house around 11:30-12 and then modified the time a little when the surveillance video came out. Not saying anything bad, it just might've helped her remember better what time they left. It was one of the way early articles I'm thinking of so it's probably been completely modified by now, but if I can find it I'll post it. My original understanding was that she saw them when they left and started looking an hour or so later when they hadn't returned. IIRC.

I know what you mean on the images, my first thought was how on earth could they tell it was the girls? But there might be better or enhanced images that were used to ID them. I hope.

In one of the videos (all the same video but a few different variations were
released with different levels of zoom), you can also see some shadows behind the white trailer before and after the girls pass that to me looked like it might be someone walking by. I hope if they were able to enhance it enough to identify the girls they could enhance it enough to identify that person/people too, or tell if it was just shadows. If it was a person, for all I know they were taking out the trash or something but it'd be good for LE to know who it was and if they were either involved, or saw anything. IMO.

I looked and this is best timeline I could find.

Hmm...now go run the timeline from the beginning and see what you get.

Is there a better timeline than NKBs ..I quoted at the beginning of my post? I apologize but cannot find a timeline ... so I can evaluate your question.Could you help me out?

 

[superbee]

Since Lyric didn't live there, it seems a bit odd to call it chores. I wouldn't allow my children to do chores at someone else's house, especially if they looked as fit and healthy as Lyric's grandmother. If they were paid, even a small amount, I would encourage it as it builds the work ethic. If the children weren't paid to clean the house occupied by the grandmother, father and stepbrother, I can understand that Lyric would be upset.

Me too.

 

[Sailorsgirl]

I don't know ... I might have my son mow my parents' lawn for free or help with other outdoor chores. It builds character to do things for others without monetary compensation. We don't really know how much "cleaning" either girl did. Perhaps, Lyric was just expected to help out as was her older half-brother. Maybe grandma didn't pay her money, but often bought her things like school supplies or clothes.

 

[GateKeeper]

Say a clerk in a convenience store 50 miles away believes the girls and perp(s) had come in to buy something and it's a week or more after their disappearce. LE reviews the video and agrees it's the girls but doesn't know who perp is or their vehicle isn't viewable on video. Since most children are harmed within the first 24-72 hours...perp is keeping them alive for some reason. Or someone did recognize the perp and after making a connection to a motive knew it wasn't for sexual intentions. jmo

I like this!!!
Im way behind...but,this makes some sense to me.

 

[CoeTrawk]

Was there anything in the early news relating to the paddleboater besides the fact that LE wanted to talk to him? I came into this case in the middle of a great big argument over whether it should be called a paddle or a pedal boat so that's all I know about it. Was there someone who came forward about it, or anything like that? TIA, coz I sure can't find anything.

 

[Sunlight]

I looked and this is best timeline I could find.


Is there a better timeline than NKBs ..I quoted at the beginning of my post? I apologize but cannot find a timeline ... so I can evaluate your question.Could you help me out?

I don't have a timeline mapped out, but I just suggest following all the times stated from the beginning of the day on 7/13 by everyone who was interviewed, LE, tipsters, etc., starting with MCM's description of seeing Lyric that morning. Where everyone was, when everyone saw everyone, when the cctv caught the girls on camera..when people searched at the lake...who searched where...the whole shebang, leading up to finding the bikes at 3:58. Someone on here must have written it down..I haven't...only in my head..Lol After reviewing the whole day, see what stands out and where the kinks are..where stories have morphed. It is a jigsaw puzzle for sure.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Was there anything in the early news relating to the paddleboater besides the fact that LE wanted to talk to him? I came into this case in the middle of a great big argument over whether it should be called a paddle or a pedal boat so that's all I know about it. Was there someone who came forward about it, or anything like that? TIA, coz I sure can't find anything.

So far as I know, LE has not commented on whether such a person came forward or not. They just haven't repeated the plea for that person (if they exist) to come forward.

 

[dotr]

Was there anything in the early news relating to the paddleboater besides the fact that LE wanted to talk to him? I came into this case in the middle of a great big argument over whether it should be called a paddle or a pedal boat so that's all I know about it. Was there someone who came forward about it, or anything like that? TIA, coz I sure can't find anything.

Both Paddle/kayaks and pedal boats are listed and pictured here.
http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/5/SportsRec/Marine/KayaksCanoesPedalBoats.jsp

 

[callyn]

Both Paddle/kayaks and pedal boats are listed and pictured here.
http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/5/SportsRec/Marine/KayaksCanoesPedalBoats.jsp

:floorlaughoohnooo Don't get us started on pedal/paddle boats again :slap:

 

[dotr]

So far as I know, LE has not commented on whether such a person came forward or not. They just haven't repeated the plea for that person (if they exist) to come forward.

July 24, not sure of anything beyond this, for now.

http://www.omaha.com/article/20120724/NEWS01/120729792/1685
FBI spokeswoman Sandy Breault said Monday that investigators want to speak with a person paddle-boating on the lake about the time the girls disappeared. Breault said that person, who has not come forward, could help investigators learn what happened to the girls but was not considered a suspect.

 

[MotherOcean]

I'll admit I never understood why Lyric would want to run away from her Grandma's house because her Dad was mad at her. He did not live with Grandma Cook, did he?And if he was mad because of chores not done at his mother's house, why would Lyric run away from her other Grandma?

Children don't just up and decide to announce that they are going to run away because of one incident. DM has an anger issue and, IMO, he probably tends to be controlling. He is a meth user and as such he is not a dad who was providing any kind of emotional stability for his little girl who was still too young to possess enough of her own to work through conflict. I'm sure that Lyric saying she was going to run away was, in part, a cry for help/attention/empathy and also just a way of venting her own frustration. By "cry for help" I mean that she was doing what she needed to do to have someone else intervene on her behalf which is what WC did when she hugged Lyric and told her it would be o.k.

My point is that it wasn't really about the chores or where she lived or who she lived with or anything like that. It was more of a reflection of her relationship with her father. Sure, she may have just been plain 'ole mad about having to do chores, but her reaction to that was not something that she thought out, she was just reacting. It didn't matter to her where she lived, she wasn't thinking logically, she was thinking like a 10 year old who had an upset father who she couldn't trust.

 

[nikb]

I looked and this is best timeline I could find.

Is there a better timeline than NKBs ..I quoted at the beginning of my post? I apologize but cannot find a timeline ... so I can evaluate your question.Could you help me out?

Oops sorry! I didn't mean for that to seem like a timeline. It was more my confusion over the times quoted. This has probably been cleared up already but just in case, the timeline I've heard/read has been:

- Sometime from 11:30 - 12:00 girls leave house to go bike riding
- 12:11 (or 12:19 depending on camera clock delays) girls are seen riding behind Lederman's on the surveillance camera (also very close to the Collins house); unknown IMO if G'ma physically saw them at that time or not
- 3:58 detective Abben sees the bikes by the fence

Optional...
- 12:27 Mr. G makes a call to his daughter unrelated to the bikes; a few days later says he swerved to miss the girls' bikes at about 12:20, with the time based on the call to his daughter.
- "Sometime between 12 and 3" Mr. C says he saw the girls while he was watering his yard.
- Around 1:00 family started looking for the girls by driving around; I think they called the police around 3:00 but I'm still trying to find that reference again.
- 2:30ish someone tells Aunt T. they saw the girls on bikes (very estimated timing)
- 3:40 firefighters found the girls' bikes and the purse (condition unknown)
- 3:58 detective Abben found the bikes leaning against the fence

I know others are more diligent with the timeline and probably already posted but just in case...

 

[Tucarra]

:floorlaughoohnooo Don't get us started on pedal/paddle boats again :slap:

Yup..yup....please , please no more paddle/pedal boats stuff

 

[Tucarra]

May have been posted, way back when...but don't remember anything about it...

Has anyone heard or have a recording/transcript of the 911 or missing person report?

 

[Considering]

Was there anything in the early news relating to the paddleboater besides the fact that LE wanted to talk to him? I came into this case in the middle of a great big argument over whether it should be called a paddle or a pedal boat so that's all I know about it. Was there someone who came forward about it, or anything like that? TIA, coz I sure can't find anything.

:lol: That wasn't an argument, CoeTrawk. That was a discussion. If there's an argument here, you'll hear it before you ever log on. :woohoo:

 

[superbee]

BBM

Am I interpreting the bolded correctly? That there are people who assign chores to children that are voluntary?

If so, my mind reels. My mama certainly did not raise me that way, my sisters have not raised their children that way and now that I'm finishing up the raising of my niece, her chores are not voluntary.

The very nature of chores makes them involuntary, in my eyes. Sure, I guess no one is forcing me to make sure the dishes are done but in order to remain habitable by humans, the dishes need to be kept clean.

I am completely sure that mean Auntie Grainne is cutting into her poor niece's time to loll around in bed watching music videos or shopping online but that's tough. My niece is stuck with me for an aunt and so long as she lives under my roof, she is going to do her share of chores. There is a largely unstated "or else" in there and my niece has already explored what happens when she leaves her dishes unwashed: the wi-fi mysteriously disappears and is not accessible by her laptop until the dishes are done.

Is there anyone who lets their children decide whether or not to do their chores? How does that work?

It worked well in our home, 2 fine sons, now Tradesmen, with families of their own. Nobody at our home had assigned chores, we were all gung ho and just got what needed to be done, done. My husband and I always told our sons how appreciative we were of their help, and that led to them pitching in more and more.

Growing up I noted how when kids, such as my maternal grandma in her stories, were praised for doing chores (or helping out as we call it) they were encouraged to help more. It worked for us. One key is to start when kids are young, but it is never too late.

I was a cleaning lady for years, and parents were amazed to come home and find their big kids working voluntarily alongside of me, music going, having fun cleaning. Everyone I know wants and needs to be appreciated. Some of the best vacuumers and furniture shiner-uppers were big kids who just wanted to hear they were doing a great job and how much their help was appreciated.

I find when things are fun, more gets done. And my gr. grandpa was right, when things are done, we can have fun. But everyone and every family has their own ideas of how to live and to raise their children.