IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #2

[SapphireSteel]

Thank you for all the local insight we are getting here. It is much appreciated.

Those who are local - what is your gut telling you?

TIA

 

[~n/t~]

SBM

Gitana, it may be a cultural/regional thing. I haven't seen the HLN interview but I've watched a bunch of other clips.

To me, as an Iowan, both moms are acting normal for the circumstances. They are being Iowans, plain and simple.

Iowa was founded, in large part, by Scandinavian settlers. If you think Garrison Keillor and Lake Wobegon, you're not too far off. It is absolutely normal here to be stoic and hide one's fear or pain.

Most Iowans would rather cut their own hand off using a rusty toenail clipper than cry in public except at funerals. There's a lot of social pressure to put other people at ease, which means doing a lot of smiling and not being too "out there" with one's intense emotions.

For instance, after my mom died, my father, sister and I went around and thanked all the hospice staff. We smiled and shook hands with all of them as we thanked them for the wonderful care they gave my mom. This was less than an hour after she died.

We didn't cry because we didn't want to make the staff feel bad and because, well, we'd rather cut our hands off with rusty toenail clippers than cry in front of strangers.

It's not good or bad, it's just the way Iowans are.

My comment is neither here nor there and just an observation on my part from watching both mom and the aunt on JVM. The aunt showed more concern. Her facial expressions said it all. Like I said, this is not to say mom is in anyway responsible for her daughter's disappearance. Just an observation on my part. Perhaps people do react differently under stress.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I have no experience with drowning victims,so please bear with me... on Sunday, I read that LE had dragged,or dredged the lake,and it was reported that the girls were not in the lake. What would some reasons be to now drain the lake ? Not to sound graphic, but could it be that their bodies had become wedged somehow at the lake bottom ? (sorry)...

LE is not calling this an abduction. There was,apparently, no sign of a struggle near their bikes. After that guy saying he saw them at 2 :30pm, they just vanished... And in just 30 minutes LE was all over the area ? It's just really strange...MOO

There is a tiny, tiny chance that the bodies are caught on something at the bottom of the lake. Being Iowans, since there is a way to drain the lake, it's being done. That's what Iowans do.

I grew up in Iowa City, along the Iowa River below the Coralville Reservoir. I remember many times when the river was deliberately held back by the dam across the reservoir so that the depth was about 3 feet in order to try to find the body of someone who went over the Burlington Street weir.

We're a small state here and Iowans try to take care of each other. If draining the lake can erase some tiny doubt for the families, then it's worth doing.

 

[GrainneDhu]

071512djs-Evansdale-search-20.jpg

Volunteers pause to photograph a cigarette pack found along the shore line as search parties continue to search the sand pits and wooded areas of BMC Aggregates L.C. in rural Gilbertville for Lyric Cook, 10, of Waterloo, and Elizabeth Collins, 8, of Evansdale, on Sunday, July 15, 2012 in Evansdale, Iowa. (DAWN J. SAGERT / Courier Staff Photographer)


Read More: http://wcfcourier.com/photos-search...a9b3-0019bb2963f4.html?photo=19#ixzz20qWlh5I6

When I look at this picture, I can imagine the girls playing on the shore and running into a sex offender. But then what? How does he or they get the girls away from there without being noticed?

That photo is at the quarry which is something like 3 miles from where the girls went missing and down a fairly busy road with lots of truck traffic.

It's not the little pond in Evansdale where their bikes were found.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I am the only one that finds the picture a little puzzling?

Puzzling how?

What I see is a picture of two women who are probably in their 50s or 60s, sitting with bottled water on a very hot Iowa day. Looks to me like they are as close as they can get to the last place their grandchild and her cousin may have been.

It was way hotter than usual for July in Iowa on Monday. If you look at the pictures of volunteers looking through cornfields, you can see how stunted the corn is and how it's already started dying. That corn *should* be way over the searcher's heads and it isn't. It's puny and stunted from the heat and the drought.

It is normal operating procedure to ask family to refrain from helping search. No one in LE or with the SAR organisations wants a family member to stumble across their loved one's remains on a search.

Plus, those two ladies do not look like they are in shape to be tramping across the countryside in 90+ F temps and high humidity.

They're sitting and waiting and hoping that their little girls aren't in that lake. But they can't stay away because maybe, just maybe, they are.

I don't find that puzzling at all.

 

[GrainneDhu]

You might not be accusing her of anything (and as someone who has lurked for years and posted infrequently, I usually admire your thoughts)...yet the lingering on Mom's demeanor (on many poster's parts) comes across as being accusatory. If anyone honestly does not believe a parent had anything to do with this, the discussion about said parent's behavior is irrelevant and adds nothing to the subject at hand (ie, where are these girls). IMO.

Thank you was not enough.

I find myself hoping no one in either family comes across these threads.

 

[GrainneDhu]

Good question. Did they even go there by bicycling. If aunt says that she asked lot of people about the girls at around 2:45pm, then there could be some people around 12:15-2:45pm around who should have seen the girls.

Also, did the previous FB rumor about a person seeing the bikes at 12:27pm confirmed?

The distance from home to lake is 1 to 1.5 miles. How fast can the girls pedal to reach there (without stopping?) What is the bike trail distance from the last seen place to lake? The bike trail does look quite shady/hidden.

BBM

http://wcfcourier.com/news/local/up...cle_18411a90-cd32-11e1-a656-0019bb2963f4.html

This article gives the name of the man who saw the 2 bikes at or very close to 12:27 pm.

It sounds like a good sighting to me because he had a reference point in time (used his cell phone within minutes) and was on a bicycle himself.

I was around Lyric's size when I was ten and I could bicycle 2 miles in less than 15 minutes (cruising speed, not going as fast as I could) at that age. I wouldn't have needed to stop.

Of course, kids vary in their level of fitness and my parents did not have a TV, so I spent a lot of time on my bike. But 1.5 miles doesn't sound like much of a distance to ride on a bike.

Friday, the temperature had dropped down to something more normal for Iowa in the summer, highs in the middle 80s F. It felt cooler than that because we'd had a horrid heat wave with highs in the upper 90s F and even over 100 F. Anywhere there was a breeze felt really comfortable compared to even three days previously.

Now the highs are up in the upper 90s again. Bleah. And a chance of thunderstorms on Wednesday.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I also believe that drowning is a very likely scenario, sadly. But I would think it would have happened close to where they left the bikes. And I am sure the searchers spent lots of time combing and dragging all around that area. Does this lake have a strong current?

The flip-flops are a nagging question as well. Why havent they been found if the girls went in the lake? They would not stay on and would float to the top. I guess they might have been worn into the lake and gotten stuck in the muddy bottom perhaps?

It's a borrow pond that has a spring feeding it, so minimal current except when the gate to the Cedar River is open. There are lots of those little borrow ponds along I380 and I80 through the midwest. They were dug out to provide rock for the interstates.

I suppose it's possible that the girls drowned and weren't found by dragging (the water is in the high 80s).

I think they were grabbed, though, where their bikes were found. Even if they screamed, it's summertime and kids scream all the time. Houses are closed up with a/c running to keep the humidity down (the houses in that area look to me to have been built during the age of a/c), so less chance of someone hearing screams.

And with two girls, a predator only needs physical control over one and the other is likely to go along for fear of the other being hurt.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I thought so too...but, the strangest part of this is that supposedly the girls were seen,on their bikes at 2 :30pm...maybe only a half hour before LE arrived, and were all over the area..think about it...they were supposedly at the lake for hours.And then, they just vanished... this man, the man who the family members said they spoke to, he would be the last person to see them alive...if any of this part of the narrative is true... MOO

And if he didn't mistake two other girls for Elizabeth and Lyric. Which I think is a definite possibility. They're both cute but they look similar to hundreds of other girls in the area.

The timeline doesn't make any sense to me if they were seen at the lake around 2:30 pm.

 

[GrainneDhu]

The Waterloo Courier is reporting the name of the man who had to swerve around the girl's bikes--

As the group searched, a bicyclist stopped the officers to say he saw the two kids bikes on the trail at about 12:20 p.m., but no sign of the children.

Ted Gamerdinger of Waterloo said he rides the trail often.

“I saw the bikes laying on the path and had to swerve to miss them,” Gamerdinger said. He then went to the Evansdale Police Department to report the sighting.


Read More: http://wcfcourier.com/news/local/up...d32-11e1-a656-0019bb2963f4.html#ixzz20r7uwdxG

According to this witness, the bikes were on the path. However, I thought I read something that the bikes were found neatly placed in what I assumed was the grass on the sides of the bike path... if that's the case, were the bikes moved between the time the witness swerved to miss them and the time that the police found them? If so... wonder if there was another other evidence that was inadvertently moved???

Since TG had to swerve to miss them, I would not be at all surprised if someone else riding the path decided to move the bikes a few feet and off the path. It would just be doing a good deed.

 

[GrainneDhu]

http://www.myabc5.com/story/19031602/search-to-resume-for-missing-iowa-girls-8-and-10

"Cook-Morrissey said her daughter might have tried to swim at the lake, despite a swimming ban. She said the family swims at another nearby lake regularly, and described Lyric as a good swimmer."

The lake drains into the Cedar River, according to this story. I wonder if the bodies ended up there via the drain.

There's a sluice gate that has to be opened to allow the lake to drain into the Cedar River. And the drain has gratings over it to keep river fish out of the lake; LE has said that nothing large could get through the mesh even if the sluice gate were open.

If the girls are in the Cedar River, they didn't get there via Meyer's Lake.

 

[GrainneDhu]

JVM transcripts.

I heard correctly. Mom did say she was off work. Interesting that she says she was at work at the beginning and then says she was off? :waitasec:


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1207/16/ijvm.01.html

Respectfully, no contradiction, just a confusion of tenses, I believe.

In the first quote, she was saying she left for work at 8:30 am.

In the second quote, she's talking about days or weeks previous to last Friday (when Lyric and Elizabeth disappeared).

In any case, since she works at a Casey's, it would be easy enough for LE to verify that she was at work on Friday; they always have cameras pointed at the cash register area and other parts of the store. In fact, I would be very surprised if LE has not already verified she was at work.

 

[~n/t~]

Respectfully, no contradiction, just a confusion of tenses, I believe.

In the first quote, she was saying she left for work at 8:30 am.

In the second quote, she's talking about days or weeks previous to last Friday (when Lyric and Elizabeth disappeared).

In any case, since she works at a Casey's, it would be easy enough for LE to verify that she was at work on Friday; they always have cameras pointed at the cash register area and other parts of the store. In fact, I would be very surprised if LE has not already verified she was at work.

Could be. I was basically confirming what I heard last night on JVM. It was something that caught my attention and wondered if I misunderstood.

If she works at Casey's and LE checked out her alibi then it shouldn't be an issue.

What does dad do for a living?

 

[Foxymona]

Just throwing out a few thoughts here...
If it was so hot that day how likely were the girls to cycle so far? Wouldn't they need water etc?
One of the moms said they were swimming in a different lake- how far is it? If they decided to go swimming would they not have gone there?
IF they did cycle to the location their bikes were found or that area- as bikes may have been moved by someone- maybe they leaned into the water to splash water over their arms etc, and one fell in and the other jumped in after her to help- this means that they would have had their clothes and shoes on at the time.

 

[Trino]

It would be good to have more info on the direction the dogs indicated.

 

[Eyespy]

Just no way that I see that they drowned in the lake. The bodies would have surfaced by now and they would have found them when they dragged the lake. Usually when someone drowns in a lake here in Iowa, divers have found the bodies within a few hours. We aren't talking about a river, we are talking about a small lake that was just drained a few years ago. I think it is great they are draining it again to make sure, but I just don't see this being feasible at all.

In regards to how the family is reacting, I pray that none of you that are judging them ever has to go through something like this. You have no idea how you would react until something tragic like this happens. I know several emergency room nurses and EMT's that work on ambulances and have seen some of the most awful and tragic accidents and deaths imaginable, and a lot of them will often make crude jokes and use humor as a way of coping and dealing with what they see on a daily basis. Most people would find that not very tasteful, but then again, they don't deal with trauma and dying people everyday.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

The old "help me find my lost puppy" ruse has worked before in abducting a child. Any kind of ploy appealing to the girls' kind natures or curiosity would get them to a stranger's car, and from there it might not be too hard to get them in the car. But that assumes a child abductor just happened to be there the same time as the two girls without being seen by anyone else.
Even kids who know all about stranger danger can still be taken in by a stranger's appeal for help.

Unfortunately I'm thinking one of them went into the lake, fell into a hole or chasm and began floundering, the other girl went in to save her and they both wound up drowning.

Forgive me if this has been asked before - what is the lake bottom comprised of? Sand, mud, clay, etc.?

BBM

Sometimes predators strike when the opportunity is right. It may not even be planned but they may have come upon the two little girls who are alone at the time with no one around. I have said countless times over the years that those who do things like this are very high risk takers. They see an opportunity and they seize upon it.

I just dont think they are in the lake. Why would they go into the lake with their shoes on? Their shoes would be on the bank somewhere, imo. And LE has dragged this lake for days and have found neither body. I just cant see them not finding TWO bodies. Maybe they may miss one but two? That makes no sense to me.

ETA: And one child was wearing flip flops. FFs would float to the top if they were on the child's feet.

IMO

 

[Wishbone]

Just no way that I see that they drowned in the lake. The bodies would have surfaced by now and they would have found them when they dragged the lake. Usually when someone drowns in a lake here in Iowa, divers have found the bodies within a few hours. We aren't talking about a river, we are talking about a small lake that was just drained a few years ago. I think it is great they are draining it again to make sure, but I just don't see this being feasible at all.

In regards to how the family is reacting, I pray that none of you that are judging them ever has to go through something like this. You have no idea how you would react until something tragic like this happens. I know several emergency room nurses and EMT's that work on ambulances and have seen some of the most awful and tragic accidents and deaths imaginable, and a lot of them will often make crude jokes and use humor as a way of coping and dealing with what they see on a daily basis. Most people would find that not very tasteful, but then again, they don't deal with trauma and dying people everyday.

I spent a few years working in a hospice setting and I can honestly say there wasn't much crude humor going on and rightly so. There are many other ways to handle stress that preserve dignity.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Just no way that I see that they drowned in the lake. The bodies would have surfaced by now and they would have found them when they dragged the lake. Usually when someone drowns in a lake here in Iowa, divers have found the bodies within a few hours. We aren't talking about a river, we are talking about a small lake that was just drained a few years ago. I think it is great they are draining it again to make sure, but I just don't see this being feasible at all.

In regards to how the family is reacting, I pray that none of you that are judging them ever has to go through something like this. You have no idea how you would react until something tragic like this happens. I know several emergency room nurses and EMT's that work on ambulances and have seen some of the most awful and tragic accidents and deaths imaginable, and a lot of them will often make crude jokes and use humor as a way of coping and dealing with what they see on a daily basis. Most people would find that not very tasteful, but then again, they don't deal with trauma and dying people everyday.

My heart and prayers are with both families.

I pray they can find out what happened to their precious little girls.

IMO

 

[traacker13]

I think LE should focus on the two pieces of evidence that they do have - the bikes and the purse.

The position in which these were found can tell a lot about the situation.

Were the bikes separated or laid neatly? Were the bikes on top of one another? Were the bikes/bikes tires covered in anything consistent with the surrounding area? Were the bikes fingerprinted?

What does the purse look like? Does it have a zipper? Was it dirty? Did it have a strap? Was the strap long enough to go on a shoulder or was it a hand held purse? Was it fingerprinted?

If the purse were thrown and the purse didn't have a zipper one would expect that the contents would scatter. If the purse did have a zipper and the purse was thrown the contents most likely would not be settled on the bottom. If the purse was set down gently, then the contents I assume would be settled more towards the bottom.

I would guess that in the instance that one of the girls was grasped that in any situation the purse would be dropped or thrown (either by the girls or a possible abductor).

If the girls were lured, it would seem to make more sense that the bikes were laid down and that there was no sign of a struggle...

Just my opinion