IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #2

[Eyespy]

I spent a few years working in a hospice setting and I can honestly say there wasn't much crude humor going on and rightly so. There are many other ways to handle stress that preserve dignity.

Definitely agree that people handle things differently, I would not be one that would use humor as a coping mechanism, but I can see where some have to use whatever they can to get by.

 

[Angelonline]

There is something odd about this whole case. I cannot put my finger on it, but I went to sleep last night trying to figure out what it is. From descriptions by locals of the spot where the bikes were left along with the odd timeline and sightings something is just not adding up for me. I feel almost as if there is some clue to this all that is just on the edge of my thoughts, but I can't seem to grasp it. At this point I have no real ideas about what happened to these precious girls.

The locals have ruled out for me the following scenarios:
1- Drowning- ruled out by dragging of the lake divers/description of the area / photos of the lake on that side/ no one is ever seen swimming in the lake / depth of the lake is shallow
2- Abduction by someone from highway (which was my first thoughts) ruled out due to- amount of traffic / construction crews nearby / roughness of terrain from hwy to bike location
3- Abduction of someone by car at the spot where bikes were found ruled out due to high visibility of a car at the location it would need to be parked / lack of good way to get car near that spot.
4- Forcible Abuction by someone on foot at the spot the bikes were found is highly unlikely due to the fact that someone would have to force the girls together from a spot of low visibility (30 feet of tunnel like trail) to a spot of high visiblity to abduct them.
5- An adult perp placing the bikes at the spot to throw off LE is also highly unlikely as these were childrens bikes and an adult would be seen doing this in broad daylight.

What is not ruled out-
1- Girls abducted somewhere else and some other kids road their bikes to that spot and rummaged thru purse and then tossed it.
2- Girls road their bikes to that spot and willing followed someone back to their house along the lake or to that person's car.

But even these two scenarios just don't feel right for someone reason I feel as if there is someone important clue that we already know that we are missing.. but what is it?

(Or maybe I am just on Websleuths overload?)

 

[Marilynilpa]

BBM

Sometimes predators strike when the opportunity is right. It may not even be planned but they may have come upon the two little girls who are alone at the time with no one around. I have said countless times over the years that those who do things like this are very high risk takers. They see an opportunity and they seize upon it.

I just dont think they are in the lake. Why would they go into the lake with their shoes on? Their shoes would be on the bank somewhere, imo. And LE has dragged this lake for days and have found neither body. I just cant see them not finding TWO bodies. Maybe they may miss one but two? That makes no sense to me.

ETA: And one child was wearing flip flops. FFs would float to the top if they were on the child's feet.

IMO

That's why I was wondering about the lake floor. I've been in lakes that start out muddy, or sandy, but wind up being a kind of slimy, clay-like mud. (This is in East Texas). I had a tennis shoe get stuck in such a lake bottom once, it was stuck so firmly that I had to pull my foot out and leave the shoe behind.

As for people commenting on the actions/emotional reactions of the families involved, I think we just need to leave that alone. Why is it being mentioned when it does nothing to locate the girls?

I think Misty is overwhelmed and doesn't know how to handle things, so she just resorts to smiling and trying to hide her confusion/pain/fright behind a "happy face." Sometimes emotions are just too hard to process.

 

[kikid]

A couple interesting quotes from this article.

The bikes were found in the trail by the gate leading to a rock jetty and water outlet on the lake. The gate wasn’t locked at the time, Abben said.

There’s a chain link fence on both sides of the trail. The purse was on the lake-side of the fence, about 10 feet to the east of the bikes and about 2 feet from the fence, officials said.

Read More: http://wcfcourier.com/news/local/up...d32-11e1-a656-0019bb2963f4.html#ixzz20syJbThQ

As the group searched, a bicyclist stopped the officers to say he saw the two kids bikes on the trail at about 12:20 p.m., but no sign of the children.

Ted Gamerdinger of Waterloo said he rides the trail often.

“I saw the bikes laying on the path and had to swerve to miss them,” Gamerdinger said. He then went to the Evansdale Police Department to report the sighting.

Read More: http://wcfcourier.com/news/local/up...d32-11e1-a656-0019bb2963f4.html#ixzz20syZ7nqQ

 

[Marilynilpa]

Definitely agree that people handle things differently, I would not be one that would use humor as a coping mechanism, but I can see where some have to use whatever they can to get by.

I have used humor as a coping mechanism.

My husband suffered from colon cancer for five years before it took his life in 2001. I was his primary caregiver except for the times he was in the hospital. I tried to keep a positive attitude and a smile on my face all the time because I was scared that if I didn't, if I gave in for one second to the fear inside of me over my husband's illness, it would consume me completely.

Sometimes I'd laugh and act happy to keep others in my family from worrying so much.

And I'm sure some of us have laughed when nervous or scared.

Please give these families the benefit of the doubtlease:

 

[raeann]

Just throwing out a few thoughts here...
If it was so hot that day how likely were the girls to cycle so far? Wouldn't they need water etc?
One of the moms said they were swimming in a different lake- how far is it? If they decided to go swimming would they not have gone there?
IF they did cycle to the location their bikes were found or that area- as bikes may have been moved by someone- maybe they leaned into the water to splash water over their arms etc, and one fell in and the other jumped in after her to help- this means that they would have had their clothes and shoes on at the time.

I think there is some misinformation being assumed that is leading people to think they might have been more inclined to go into the water. According to Wunderground, the temperature that day was only 71 degrees at 11 am and only 80 degrees at 4 pm. That would not be considered anything but a mild summer day in that area of the country. It would be warm riding bikes, but quite comfortable just to stop for awhile in the shade somewhere. At the time the bikes were seen on the trail at 12:20 it was only about 75 degrees and they were in a shady area.

Additionally, wind speeds were recorded between 6 and 9 miles an hour. That is a gentle breeze that would have made it quite comfortable while riding. It was also listed as being from overcast to partly cloudy during that time period which would make it even more comfortable being outdoors.

I can't assume that they did or didn't go into the water at this point, just that the weather would not have made it MORE likely, and certainly that particular spot would not have been a likely choice if they had already passed up more enticing areas to do so.

http://www.wunderground.com/history...tml?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA

jmo

 

[amandab]

My apologies if this has been mentioned before - I'm quite far behind.

I got to thinking about the theory that the girls had gone swimming; does anyone know if they were, in fact, wearing their swimsuits? I know even if they weren't, that wouldn't completely stop a child from swimming - my own would swim in her play clothes if I let her, I think - but it does give me pause.

 

[Mysti88c]

I, for one, don't have a problem discussing the demeanor of the family. I have learned so much from being in this forum about how you cannot judge guilt or involvement from parents' reaction in front of the camera. It's good to say "she's not acting like I would expect". I learn that there is no typical reaction to expect. No one here has implied that the parents are involved in any way. Seems pretty clear to me that they are not.

 

[keeponsearching]

I missed some information. What happen to the 1230 sighting of the bikes on the path. If we have someone witness the girls riding at 230. Does anyone have a timeliness? Tia
Just curious but why is their a banned on that pond?
Maybe. I'm going off the 230 and I can not find a comma on my kindle so lots of periods.... possiobsomeoneone they new stopped them and offered a ride back ho.e. of course I'm still confused over timeliness.

 

[TGIRecovered]

There is something odd about this whole case. I cannot put my finger on it, but I went to sleep last night trying to figure out what it is. From descriptions by locals of the spot where the bikes were left along with the odd timeline and sightings something is just not adding up for me. I feel almost as if there is some clue to this all that is just on the edge of my thoughts, but I can't seem to grasp it. At this point I have no real ideas about what happened to these precious girls.

The locals have ruled out for me the following scenarios:
1- Drowning- ruled out by dragging of the lake divers/description of the area / photos of the lake on that side/ no one is ever seen swimming in the lake / depth of the lake is shallow
2- Abduction by someone from highway (which was my first thoughts) ruled out due to- amount of traffic / construction crews nearby / roughness of terrain from hwy to bike location
3- Abduction of someone by car at the spot where bikes were found ruled out due to high visibility of a car at the location it would need to be parked / lack of good way to get car near that spot.
4- Forcible Abuction by someone on foot at the spot the bikes were found is highly unlikely due to the fact that someone would have to force the girls together from a spot of low visibility (30 feet of tunnel like trail) to a spot of high visiblity to abduct them.
5- An adult perp placing the bikes at the spot to throw off LE is also highly unlikely as these were childrens bikes and an adult would be seen doing this in broad daylight.

What is not ruled out-
1- Girls abducted somewhere else and some other kids road their bikes to that spot and rummaged thru purse and then tossed it.
2- Girls road their bikes to that spot and willing followed someone back to their house along the lake or to that person's car.

But even these two scenarios just don't feel right for someone reason I feel as if there is someone important clue that we already know that we are missing.. but what is it?

(Or maybe I am just on Websleuths overload?)

I agree that the girls might have been lured away from the bikes. I wonder if one of the girls hid the purse to keep the cell phone from being stolen? That sounds like something that might make sense to a kid who doesn't want to bother carrying a purse around while exploring outdoors.

I wish that we could pinpoint the last time the girls were seen by someone other than the grandmother. It seems very strange to me that the girls could have made it all they way to the lake without being noticed by anyone somewhere along the way. I don't think that I can completely rule out the bikes being placed there much earlier than we've assumed or even sometime after something happened to the girls. For me, it takes more than the word of just one person to convince me that the bike ride happened exactly as it has been reported so far. I mean no offense to the family, just being practical!


MOO

 

[Mysti88c]

There is something odd about this whole case. I cannot put my finger on it, but I went to sleep last night trying to figure out what it is. From descriptions by locals of the spot where the bikes were left along with the odd timeline and sightings something is just not adding up for me. I feel almost as if there is some clue to this all that is just on the edge of my thoughts, but I can't seem to grasp it. At this point I have no real ideas about what happened to these precious girls.

The locals have ruled out for me the following scenarios:
1- Drowning- ruled out by dragging of the lake divers/description of the area / photos of the lake on that side/ no one is ever seen swimming in the lake / depth of the lake is shallow
2- Abduction by someone from highway (which was my first thoughts) ruled out due to- amount of traffic / construction crews nearby / roughness of terrain from hwy to bike location
3- Abduction of someone by car at the spot where bikes were found ruled out due to high visibility of a car at the location it would need to be parked / lack of good way to get car near that spot.
4- Forcible Abuction by someone on foot at the spot the bikes were found is highly unlikely due to the fact that someone would have to force the girls together from a spot of low visibility (30 feet of tunnel like trail) to a spot of high visiblity to abduct them.
5- An adult perp placing the bikes at the spot to throw off LE is also highly unlikely as these were childrens bikes and an adult would be seen doing this in broad daylight.

What is not ruled out-
1- Girls abducted somewhere else and some other kids road their bikes to that spot and rummaged thru purse and then tossed it.
2- Girls road their bikes to that spot and willing followed someone back to their house along the lake or to that person's car.

But even these two scenarios just don't feel right for someone reason I feel as if there is someone important clue that we already know that we are missing.. but what is it?

(Or maybe I am just on Websleuths overload?)

I couldn't agree more with your post. With the first possible scenario, I wonder why the police would not ask for any kids who may have moved the bikes to come forward and they would not get in trouble.
With the second possibility, I imagine the lure was something that made them panic and leave their things... like "your mom is hurt" or "my kitten is drowning".

 

[Pensfan]

It is odd to me as well.



People in shock are not as articulate as she is. They may not be flailing about, nor crying, shaking or screaming, but they tend to be confused and in a state of unreality:
Acute stress reaction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I went into shock as a child due to a trauma. No way would someone in psychological shock act the way this mom did. She actually snickered when Jane pointed out how strong she was being - grinned, laughed and flipped her hair.



I am also very familiar with tranquilizers. She has none of the signs of someone who is on one - at least none of the signs of someone who has taken enough to be calm in the face of great trauma or fear.

That being said, I think it is very clear that this family are victims. Mom of Lyric was at work. Dad apparently was as well.

Both kids were with grandma when they went missing. To believe that mom's reactions show consciousness of guilt would be to believe that dad, mom, grandma and the parents of the other child, are all in on it, as well as possibly the aunt - that either all of them conspired to harm the girls or all of them are conspiring to cover up what one of them did.

That makes no sense.

I find the mom's reactions very odd but maybe she is simply telling herself that they are okay and will be coming back. Maybe she is in hardcore denial.

Bottom line though, the facts indicate there is no way they are involved. They are victims.

Respectfully shortened
Her frequent lip licking and dry mouth is a clue. If she has been on antidepressants for weeks or longer, her affect would be labeled “emotional affect of antidepressant therapy.” (Affect with an “a&#8221 This sense of numbing begins to occur in antidepressant users as their depression remits. It’s a side effect that causes many depressed patients to be noncompliant with their meds. Antidepressants can also cause euphoria.

Boring example: I cared for a patient whose brother died during emergency heart surgery. He told me he spent the day making his brother’s funeral arrangements and his family told him he was not acting appropriately. He knew his affect was not appropriately sad and it greatly worried him. At that time it was not safe for him to taper off his meds and immediately discontinuing them would be dangerous.
http://www.medicographia.com/2010/0...vity-following-remission-of-major-depression/

 

[Chris_Texas]

Thank you was not enough.

I find myself hoping no one in either family comes across these threads.

Respectfully,

Statistically, a missing child is only rarely abducted by a stranger. It is most often a member of their own family or a close family friend. It is therefore appropriate to discuss everyone in my opinion.

 

[hollyblue]

A couple interesting quotes from this article.

Quote:
The bikes were found in the trail by the gate leading to a rock jetty and water outlet on the lake. The gate wasn’t locked at the time, Abben said.

There’s a chain link fence on both sides of the trail. The purse was on the lake-side of the fence, about 10 feet to the east of the bikes and about 2 feet from the fence, officials said.

Read More: http://wcfcourier.com/news/local/upd...#ixzz20syJbThQ
Quote:
As the group searched, a bicyclist stopped the officers to say he saw the two kids bikes on the trail at about 12:20 p.m., but no sign of the children.

Ted Gamerdinger of Waterloo said he rides the trail often.

“I saw the bikes laying on the path and had to swerve to miss them,” Gamerdinger said. He then went to the Evansdale Police Department to report the sighting.

Read More: http://wcfcourier.com/news/local/upd...#ixzz20syZ7nqQ

I wonder where they found the bikes and where TG had to swerve around them are the same location?
Could someone....knowing the gate was open...persuade the two with interest into going beyond it to see the pump? I need to study the map much more, but is there a different access to the pump location that a vehicle could drive down? What are the chances of the children going beyond the gate themselves and running into a homeless person/predo? My "gang" when I was growing up were very advertureous and we would go places in the woods my parents would have an instant heart attack. How deep is that quarry? Cliffs?
Very strange circumstances, imo. I don't believe they are in the lake either....and yes flip flops can get stuck in the mud and never retrieved again....
Off to the maps.......




I

 

[fraudqueen]

Reference humor as a coping skill, police and reporters use it too....they have to. Imagine if police arrived at a horrific scene and started screaming and crying themselves....they wanted to when they first started as officers, but they had to hold it in. That is why when they are all back at the police department, they use humor sometimes to release their feelings. It has NOTHING to do with bad character. Moo

 

[Wanting2Help]

Is anyone on the scanner thread? Is there a SAR thread?

 

[Chris_Texas]

And if he didn't mistake two other girls for Elizabeth and Lyric. Which I think is a definite possibility. They're both cute but they look similar to hundreds of other girls in the area.

The timeline doesn't make any sense to me if they were seen at the lake around 2:30 pm.

I could see this as well. If I saw a couple kids on bikes I doubt I would pay enough attention to them to be able to tell one pair from the next.

 

[CN2Souls]

Is anyone on the scanner thread? Is there a SAR thread?

I am...:hug:

 

[Marilynilpa]

I, for one, don't have a problem discussing the demeanor of the family. I have learned so much from being in this forum about how you cannot judge guilt or involvement from parents' reaction in front of the camera. It's good to say "she's not acting like I would expect". I learn that there is no typical reaction to expect. No one here has implied that the parents are involved in any way. Seems pretty clear to me that they are not.

I guess I just can't see why saying "she's laughing too much" or "she seems to be smiling inappropriately" is in any way pertinent to locating these two missing girls.

If no one is implying that the parents/families are involved, why are so many on this thread discussing their emotional reactions? How does Misty's demeanor on a television show have any bearing on what happened to these girls? How does her frame of mind give us a better picture of what took place?

I'm a fairly long-time member of WS, and there have been times when it has seemed appropriate to question a family's demeanor. But I feel some of the posts about Misty, in particular, are almost "catty" and do nothing to explain what happened to the girls, when it happened, where it happened, etc.

That's why I wish we could just focus on what is important here.

JMO, and not intended to criticize anyone in particular.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

That's why I was wondering about the lake floor. I've been in lakes that start out muddy, or sandy, but wind up being a kind of slimy, clay-like mud. (This is in East Texas). I had a tennis shoe get stuck in such a lake bottom once, it was stuck so firmly that I had to pull my foot out and leave the shoe behind.

As for people commenting on the actions/emotional reactions of the families involved, I think we just need to leave that alone. Why is it being mentioned when it does nothing to locate the girls?

I think Misty is overwhelmed and doesn't know how to handle things, so she just resorts to smiling and trying to hide her confusion/pain/fright behind a "happy face." Sometimes emotions are just too hard to process.

As a child I have gone into those type of lakes too. They are very mucky on the floor bottom and hard to walk in. I still think the flip flops would have risen to the top by now though.

I am one to never judge how family members act during times of tremendous stress. Each person is an individual and there is no written rule stating that each and every person must act the same identical way. I know people that are very emotional and then some who are a wreck inside but maintain calmness outwardly. Some even smile..laugh due to a nervous response.

In Isa Celis' case there was a link about a mother who found her son's decapitated body. When calling 911 she did not just chuckle but she laughed out loud when telling the op that his head was missing. Now this mother had absolutely nothing to do with the murder of her son. Do I think this mother was in total shock? Absolutely. Until we have walked in the same shoes under the same set of circumstances none of us really know how we would act. To know it is to live it and God forbid I hope I never do.

I really think a predator has kidnapped these children and no telling where they are by now or if they are even alive anymore.

IMO