IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #28

[iamnotagolem]

Here are some cold cases from the area: Valerie Lynn Klossowsky, (Bremer County) found 1971. Maureen Brubaker Farley, found 9/71 (she has a thread WS), Julia Ann Benning, found 11/75. Lisa Marie Peak found 9/76 (Readlyn).

How old were these girls?

 

[SapphireSteel]

If the girls were gone by 12:25, do you believe the girls were taken at the lake AND that the bikes TG saw belonged to the girls?

IMO, the pet tactic isn't necessarily time consuming if you are already grooming a child/children. If the girls were taken by someone they knew, he could have told the girls to meet him at the lake and he'd show them his new pet. They show up, he walks them to his vehicle to see the pet, and the girls are abducted.

I'm not saying this is how it happened, I'm just disagreeing that the pet tactic is time consuming and too risky.

The "pet tactic" I'm referring to is the random dog-walking predator on the lookout trying to entice.

The "pet tactic" being used by someone already known to the girls is not actually a tactic, if he's already groomed them he doesn't need a tactic. They would jump in his car at the promise of just about anything, lollies, a new ipad, a puppy, whatever...the grooming (eg the tactics) have already taken place prior to the abduction.

I know predators use this sort of thing all the time, but my point is in this particular case, there really wasn't time for a random to groom two street wise girls in a park, by using a pet. Grandma would've seen them.

:moo:

 

[Reverie]

How old were these girls?

They were 14, 17, 19, 20 yrs old.

 

[iamnotagolem]

How old were these girls?

Found the answer...Valerie was 14 in 1971, Julie was 19 when she disappeared in 75, and Lisa was 20 when she disappeared in 76.

So let's for a minute say that these three girls were killed by the same man and never caught and is also responsible for Elizabeth and Lryic.

This is really just speculating, but if the killer of those three girls was their age at the time, especially the 14 y/o then it's possible he was never considered as a suspect because of his age. Then the killer could have married in his early 20s and stopped killing. Possibly he has divorced in recent years and is single again and took up killing Elizabeth and Lyric.

This is really a long shot, but if that theory is correct then the killer would be 55-57. If he was the same age as those three girls when he killed them.

I'm not sold on this theory at all, but was trying to piece together something plausible after those three girls were mentioned up thread.

 

[foxbluff]

If that wasn't them on the camera, then that opens up the timeframe by 45 minutes. But I have a hard time believing police would release the video and say it was the girls unless they were 100% sure.

I understand what you're saying.

You know how some peeps here believe they've read a certain something in the media some time ago, but can't re-find it later? Almost like the words went "poof?"

The words I recall seeing that went "poof" was an interview w/LE... I'm pretty sure interview was w/Abben... back when the video was first being reported on by media... he's talking about how grainy the video is ... it's just a couple of seconds... and zoom they're by it...

The part I can no longer find is where he says (or the reporter editorializes him as saying) it's not clear enough to make a possitive ID, but since it fits our timeline we're assuming it's them.

Well, it's not clear enough for me either.

 

[iamnotagolem]

I understand what you're saying.

You know how some peeps here believe they've read a certain something in the media some time ago, but can't re-find it later? Almost like the words went "poof?"

The words I recall seeing that went "poof" was an interview w/LE... I'm pretty sure interview was w/Abben... back when the video was first being reported on by media... he's talking about how grainy the video is ... it's just a couple of seconds... and zoom they're by it...

The part I can no longer find is where he says (or the reporter editorializes him as saying) it's not clear enough to make a possitive ID, but since it fits our timeline we're assuming it's them.

Well, it's not clear enough for me either.

I get it. If they are just assuming then I think that changes everything. Just like TG assumes the bikes he saw that day were the girls, there is also the possibility that they weren't.

 

[cindersoot]

I'm of the opinion that the clearest version of the video that we've seen is the version which was enhanced by LE.

I mean, gosh, look how crystal clear the bdgs and grounds are of the auction hse property which is, I assume, the focus and purpose of the cameras!

Jmo, but I'm thinking the girls are blurry because they are riding by the camera so fast.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Or, it could be a cheap camera or overused tape (if it's still the old fashioned kind) or it could just be a dirty lens.

The fact that they were last seen by Grandma right where these two on bikes were recorded (and were the only cyclists that entire day) tells me it was the girls.

Can you imagine how much potential evidence LE would risk losing if they stated the film was of the girls when it wasn't? People would say, "I can't have seen them, they were recorded over the other side of town" and valuable evidence would be lost if they misled the community over the time and place of the last confirmed sighting!

 

[SapphireSteel]

I get it. If they are just assuming then I think that changes everything. Just like TG assumes the bikes he saw that day were the girls, there is also the possibility that they weren't.

The family identified the bikes.

I'm fairly sure TG would have been asked to describe them, and his description matched, including the spot they were found.

The possibility of two other cyclists dumping their bikes and disappearing off the path together at the exact same spot as the girls on the exact same day, is statistically extremely unlikely.

:cow:

 

[alliemay]

How old were these girls?

Late teens early twenties, I was just answering Cinder's question on cold cases in the area.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Ty, Squeeze. I so wish you had seen something that fateful day as, IMO, you would have made an excellent witness.

BBM - Bingo... that, IMO, is the most logical assumption. I don't know if perp chose that location (either for staging or abduction) for that very reason or just lucked out.

There was possibly an added advantage to perp in that it could have caused a slight delay in crime scene tape being placed.

I think that exact spot was chosen because of the vicinity to the highway.

The perp hoped that LE would conclude it was a random lucky chance for a predator.

The problem is, only a local would know that there was no "official" parking nearby, and that locals used the grassed area instead.

 

[cindersoot]

Found the answer...Valerie was 14 in 1971, Julie was 19 when she disappeared in 75, and Lisa was 20 when she disappeared in 76.

So let's for a minute say that these three girls were killed by the same man and never caught and is also responsible for Elizabeth and Lryic.

This is really just speculating, but if the killer of those three girls was their age at the time, especially the 14 y/o then it's possible he was never considered as a suspect because of his age. Then the killer could have married in his early 20s and stopped killing. Possibly he has divorced in recent years and is single again and took up killing Elizabeth and Lyric.

This is really a long shot, but if that theory is correct then the killer would be 55-57. If he was the same age as those three girls when he killed them.

I'm not sold on this theory at all, but was trying to piece together something plausible after those three girls were mentioned up thread.

I'm glad you brought this up because I was wondering it myself. Has anyone heard of a 14 yr old killing or raping? I'm sure there is.

 

[foxbluff]

Jmo, but I'm thinking the girls are blurry because they are riding by the camera so fast.

You're not the only WSer who thinks they were riding fast by the camera. I've seen that expressed here many times. And, IMO, for all we really know (at this point in time), you could be right! It would certainly help w/the opinion of peeps whose theory says they were in a hurry to get to some kind of scheduled meeting.

As for me, I have zero idea of how fast the two bikers caught on video camera were moving. Those blurry images don't strike me as either fast or slow.

Now, just jumping off Cinder's post to further clarify what I'm saying abt the video footage range:

To me, the critical needs of having a video camera focused on the outside of a bldg is to capture an identifiable thief/burglar/vandal trying to enter the bldg or up to mischief on said property.

IMHO, for that purpose, there is no need for a business owner to pay for a higher powered camera that would clearly define people/traffic simply traveling along adjoining streets or alleys.

 

[foxbluff]

I think that exact spot was chosen because of the vicinity to the highway.

The perp hoped that LE would conclude it was a random lucky chance for a predator.

The problem is, only a local would know that there was no "official" parking nearby, and that locals used the grassed area instead.

This day has been too long for me... I'm not sure what you mean.

BBM - I've always believed the perp is local.

 

[SapphireSteel]

This day has been too long for me... I'm not sure what you mean.

BBM - I've always believed the perp is local.

Sorry.

From Misty -

What she`s saying is at the end of the U that you were shown, the trail comes around here, the bikes were found here, You come to that end of it, this bridge is out into a wooded area and right here is a big patch of grass where you can pull your vehicles up on to and that`s where we parked our vehicles to get back on the trail and go back this way.

Jim Spellman - I know he's only a journo but he was on the scene at the time -


GRACE: OK, Jim Spellman, joining me there at Meyers Lake, OK, this is the first I`m hearing of a quasi-parking area on a grassy turf near where the bikes were discovered. Would that have been access for someone to park there, dump the bikes and keep going?

SPELLMAN: Yes, it could -- it sort of connects the neighborhood actually quite close to the police station to this back end, that would definitely have to be somebody who was waiting there, because the bike path and the direction that the scent dogs went would lead them down this bike path, someone would have to know that they were there to be on that end, almost ready to intercept them, Nancy.

http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1207/17/ng.01.html

Disturbing. Spellman seems to thinke the girls must've been literally trapped, like flies in a web...so how did someone know that they were going to bike past that particular spot at that particular time?

I don't believe it was a random lurker, he would've been seen. Or his car would've, right on the grassy informal parking area the locals use.

:cow:

 

[cindersoot]

This day has been too long for me... I'm not sure what you mean.

BBM - I've always believed the perp is local.

I think what she is saying is he made it look like it was not a local.

 

[roseofsharon]

At the risk of sounding repetitive, I have always believed TG's sighting, and that the girls were either taken at the lake or very nearby.

I believe they went to the lake on a mission, and were taken immediately.

I believe the girls may have still been with their abductor in the wooded area of the lake when TG went past.

I believe TG and Mr C and others have been purposely instructed to be vague as to times.

I believe LE would not say the cctv was the girls if it wasn't, and am also mindful that they were the only two on bikes that went past that camera the entire day.

I can't imagine LE instructing potential witnesses to be vague as to times. imo

 

[SapphireSteel]

I can't imagine LE instructing potential witnesses to be vague as to times. imo

Really? I can, especially if LE fear for potential witness safety.

If you watch the clip of Mr C it is very clear he was about to state a definite time before his wife jumped in and said "between 12 and 3".

 

[roseofsharon]

Really? I can, especially if LE fear for potential witness safety.

If you watch the clip of Mr C it is very clear he was about to state a definite time before his wife jumped in and said "between 12 and 3".

If LE feared for potential witness safety, I would think they would instruct these people to stay silent and never utter another word about times or what they saw and who they saw. I don't think LE would want them to discuss it at all, but if they did, be vague about it.

imo

 

[iamnotagolem]

I'm glad you brought this up because I was wondering it myself. Has anyone heard of a 14 yr old killing or raping? I'm sure there is.

I looked into that before pitching my theory. I wanted to make sure that if this is what happened, that it wasn't the first time in history, as that would make the theory much less likely.

Here is a list of the youngest killers,

http://listverse.com/2011/05/14/top-10-young-killers/