IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #36

[SapphireSteel]

BBM Agreed! I've been speed reading thru a lot of it but tend to miss things when I do. I believe I read that one of the girls' parents were a bit on the shady side (drugs, etc). Can't help but wonder if the daughter may have been a victim due to this with the other girl simply killed because they were together. Unlike some, I don't think it was based on revenge for something the parent has done. This kind of thing tends to happen, but it is rare. I know from my criminal justice background that drug dealers/users tend to associate themselves with even shadier characters from time to time and one of them could very well have been a child predator. Just a possibility. Perhaps the girl knew the perp from seeing them at their parents home and could have possibly trusted them or at least not have been afraid of them allowing the perp to get close to them. Again, just a theory and MOO!

I'm not the one to discuss abduction theories, I have long believed this to be an "inside" crime set up (primarily) for money making purposes.

You can read my blog if you want to know more.

Both parents of Lyric are now incarcerated for other crimes.

Poor kid was "at risk". Elizabeth too by association.

 

[tlcya]

You would either dig one and put them in together, or dig two next to each other.

You would NOT dispose of them 50ft apart.

Why carry one in deep to the woods and not the other? You either need to conceal or you don't.

I think they ran in and got shot like deer. Ugh.

because we are talking about the difference between burying a couple of dogs - suggesting some reason to care enough to invest in time to bury a creature and dumping two fully exposed human children in a wild area and to me that suggests differing motivations or knowledge or familiarity.

 

[B4igo2it]

If 7 Bridges is a disposal location (which many believe to be so), IMO, this is not a place the perp frequents. I doubt an avid fisherman would leave them in this area he/she uses and would not dispose of the evidence in their own backyard ... unless there is a specific purpose for the remains to be found in this particular location? But if that were the case, it is doubtful they would have been placed in the somewhat hidden location and be left closer to a path or drive area to easily be located.
We discussed the advantages of hunters out and about before the girls were discovered. If the killer's intent was for the girls to not be found, this sure as heck would not be the wisest disposal area, especially during hunting season where there is a high probability they will be discovered!
My question keeps going back to ... why Seven Bridges?

 

[Squeeze]

Ok let's look at it this way.

You have two dead dogs to bury.

Do you dig ONE HOLE or two, 50 ft apart?

He obviously didn't take the time to dispose of them respectfully. I agree with the previously stated theory that he simply dumped them where he knew a good hiding place was, and he was too tired or lazy to take the second one as far as the first. He was more interested in getting out of Dodge.

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Tapatalk

 

[carbuff]

If 7 Bridges is a disposal location (which many believe to be so), IMO, this is not a place the perp frequents. I doubt an avid fisherman would leave them in this area he/she uses and would not dispose of the evidence in their own backyard ... unless there is a specific purpose for the remains to be found in this particular location? But if that were the case, it is doubtful they would have been placed in the somewhat hidden location and be left closer to a path or drive area to easily be located.
We discussed the advantages of hunters out and about before the girls were discovered. If the killer's intent was for the girls to not be found, this sure as heck would not be the wisest disposal area, especially during hunting season where there is a high probability they will be discovered!
My question keeps going back to ... why Seven Bridges?

My first guess is that he didn't care if the bodies were eventually discovered as long as they weren't discovered within a time frame that would lead back to him.

 

[alliemay]

If 7 Bridges is a disposal location (which many believe to be so), IMO, this is not a place the perp frequents. I doubt an avid fisherman would leave them in this area he/she uses and would not dispose of the evidence in their own backyard ... unless there is a specific purpose for the remains to be found in this particular location? But if that were the case, it is doubtful they would have been placed in the somewhat hidden location and be left closer to a path or drive area to easily be located.
We discussed the advantages of hunters out and about before the girls were discovered. If the killer's intent was for the girls to not be found, this sure as heck would not be the wisest disposal area, especially during hunting season where there is a high probability they will be discovered!
My question keeps going back to ... why Seven Bridges?

Maybe this "backyard" was the person's playground before he killed the girls.
Afterwards, they just found a new one to hunt and fish in. Possibly even in another state.
I had explored the thought in my head of an "out of town" guest being invited to hunt at Seven Bridges, but then again this person would also have to have a reason to be near Myers Lake. It's good to get different views though, with that said, I think I'll stick with my original thoughts that this person was a local, at least for the time frame that this happened in. They may not be local now. I don't know what thread I posted this on, but there was one cold case that was solved in Iowa. The man's killer, who had lived in Iowa when the murder happened was found living in a trailer in Florida. Maybe that's another reason why the white SUV has not been found. Everything is a maybe... its so frustrating.

 

[threecrazykids]

If 7 Bridges is a disposal location (which many believe to be so), IMO, this is not a place the perp frequents. I doubt an avid fisherman would leave them in this area he/she uses and would not dispose of the evidence in their own backyard ... unless there is a specific purpose for the remains to be found in this particular location? But if that were the case, it is doubtful they would have been placed in the somewhat hidden location and be left closer to a path or drive area to easily be located.
We discussed the advantages of hunters out and about before the girls were discovered. If the killer's intent was for the girls to not be found, this sure as heck would not be the wisest disposal area, especially during hunting season where there is a high probability they will be discovered!
My question keeps going back to ... why Seven Bridges?

I've thought through the whole "Why Seven Bridges" more times than I can count. I feel like a hamster in a wheel with my thoughts. I keep running in circles and getting nowhere.

One wouldn't think they would dispose of the girls in their own backyard - a place they could be tied to.
But:
1. Maybe they are just sick enough to continue to go there and watch people go about their business knowing the girls bodies were right there all along. Sick people get off on sick things.
2. If they have no prior record, why would this person being there -even regularly - be anything to worry about? Even if he was there when the bodies were discovered there would potentially be nothing to indicate this perp as a suspect.

They wouldn't hide the girls there if they wanted them to be found.
But:
1. The fact that hunters literally stumbled upon them 6 months later (if they were there all along) was nothing short of sheer luck/miracle.
2. The chances of someone coming across and recognizing them as human remains could be lower during hunting season.
3. By the time they were discovered in the fall, their remains would likely be fully decomposed.

If this was a "drive through murder" (someone who just happened to pull up this park on a map/GPS) as we have often discussed I can't fathom why on earth they would assume this park to be sitting empty during the second week of July. Most parks/campgrounds are heavily utilized during the summer camping season.
Also - unless the girls were already deceased while in the vehicle I would think that the sheer frustration of even FINDING the place would spark some distress/frustration during the unfolding of events. Driving into the dead center of a County park during a Friday afternoon or evening in the dead of summer would NOT be a place I would assume to be the place of choice to go undetected. Honestly - that would maybe be number 10 on a "top 10 places to possibly get away with this".
Why on earth would someone think to dump them in a county park during peak camping season?
Because they KNEW the park well enough to know not only how to get there, but when/how to get there without being detected.

If the theory holds true that this was just a dumping ground there is nothing stopping me from believing this person left the girls somewhere and scouted out the park before actually taking their bodies there.

Do a quick sweep of the park to determine where people were. Waited until nightfall - loaded them up - and drove them in.

If no one was there camping or even in the general vicinity, this perp could have 6-8 hours to complete the task of disposing of their bodies. Granted, you and I would probably be a paniced mess trying to accomplish such a task - but not someone who knew the park, and knew no one was ever going to show up in the middle of the disposal.

I've also thought about the girls being walked in and killed there - but again, how would this person know that no one was there on that Friday afternoon?
They likely didn't - they possibly waited until night and walked them in. It would be horribly dark - even with a full moon, the thickness of the tree cover would still make it extremely difficult/scary to walk through for those girls - and possibly too much potential for things to go wrong - UNLESS THEY KNEW AND TRUSTED THIS PERSON.

I am going to repeat myself ad naseum that I think is some sort of key: taken from a park - found in a park. Lather, rinse, repeat until I find that link. :banghead:

 

[watcher9]

Maybe a gun was not used to kill the girls, at least not at Seven Bridges. The sound of two shots which would have carried throughout the park and the surrounding fields in the middle of summer should have drawn the attention of anyone nearby.

On the Klunder crime, for example,
The body was autopsied on June 8, and on June 9 Iowa Chief State Medical Examiner Dr. Julia Goodin confirmed that the body was Kathlynn’s and that she had been killed with “multiple sharp and blunt force injuries.”

http://www.crimelibrary.com/blog/20...-as-abducted-teen-kathlynn-shepard/index.html

 

[Squeeze]

My opinion is that he drove to the park at night within a few days of the disappearance, with the dead bodies already in the car. He knew of a good dump spot, scoped it out, saw no one, dumped one and then the other. Maybe even scoped the park again in between to make SURE no one was there. Got it done and left.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Ok you have two dead goats to dump.

You carry them INTO your car.

You know how heavy they are.

You know you have two to dump/hide.

Dumping them TOGETHER halves the chance one will be discovered.

You already know how heavy they are, so you would NOT walk one in yards and just leave the other nearby. This would increase the risk of discovery twofold.

You would find a place where they can both be hidden, together.

If discovery doesn't matter to you, you would just dump them anywhere, again, together, for speed and convenience.

 

[YidArmyRach]

Ok you have two dead goats to dump.

You carry them INTO your car.

You know how heavy they are.

You know you have two to dump/hide.

Dumping them TOGETHER halves the chance one will be discovered.

You already know how heavy they are, so you would NOT walk one in yards and just leave the other nearby. This would increase the risk of discovery twofold.

You would find a place where they can both be hidden, together.

If discovery doesn't matter to you, you would just dump them anywhere, again, together, for speed and convenience.

What if the perp carried the first one in, at night, and covered her over with branches etc then couldn't find the exact spot when he returned with the second one (maybe the moon was behind clouds at that point) so dumped her at the point he gave up looking?

 

[alliemay]

Timing seemed to be in this person's favor, the time was right because the girls were alone. The time was right because no one was watching, and hiding them in the woods instead of dumping them on the side of the road gave this person the time to sit back and watch to see if they would be found, it gave them time for any evidence to fade away with each passing month. Time to get away from the whole area if they chose to do so. I don't think it mattered to this person if the girls were found as long as it wasn't right after they went missing.

 

[Darcyline]

This discussion of why they were separated is complicated by the fact that it could have been reasons not even having to do with the murderer(s). Animal activity or even a slight incline one was closer to combined with the correct weather conditions might have done it as well.

 

[SapphireSteel]

This discussion of why they were separated is complicated by the fact that it could have been reasons not even having to do with the murderer(s). Animal activity or even a slight incline one was closer to combined with the correct weather conditions might have done it as well.

They said the remains were 50foot
T apart not scattered but you're right. So much depends on stuff we just don't know.

 

[B4igo2it]

it is possible they could have been left at different time periods; although LE indicated that they believed the girls were placed there shortly after their abduction

 

[Indy Anna]

it is possible they could have been left at different time periods; although LE indicated that they believed the girls were placed there shortly after their abduction

I had mentioned this earlier. One girl may have been killed on the first day after the abduction then taken to the dump site late at night; and the other killed the following day and the perp returned to the dump site. With everything overgrown in the middle of summer, the perp likely didn't remember the exact location he left the first body but wanted to dispose of the body quickly to avoid detection, so he left the second in the general vicinity.

Another theory is that the perp took both bodies to 7 Bridges at the same time, and carried them separately. Maybe there were two perps and each carried a body into the woods. Whether there were one or two perps, the bodies would have been heavy and Lyric looked much heavier than Lizzie. I wonder which body was furthest from the river? My guess would be the heavier one. The perp carried the body as far as he could manage.

I do believe the perp(s) had to be familiar with both parks, but especially familiar with 7 Bridges. As a said earlier, I think he likely lives in between the two parks, maybe to the west (Waterloo) or the east. I doubt he lives very close to 7 Bridges but he was familiar enough with it and it was far enough from him that he wouldn't be linked to the locale.

Regarding the SUV: Even if the perp relocated to another state after the murder, someone had to have seen the SUV before he left and knowing that he moved soon after the children were abducted would (I think) make someone suspicious. Since several people spotted the SUV at the park the day the girls disappeared but no one recognized it (hadn't seen it before), I think the perp(s) drove a different vehicle on prior visits -- possibly to fish. Since the SUV hasn't been ID'd, I still wonder if it was a loaner car or one that was used primarily on a farm just to drive on the property (which would suggest a pretty large farm) or maybe to drive produce from the farm to a town in the opposite direction of Evansdale.

In summary, I don't think the perp was local but was very familiar with the 2 parks. If more than one perp involved, one may have been local to Evansdale but they used a vehicle of the perp that was not local so no one would associate the local perp with the SUV, or with the crime.

:moo:

 

[SapphireSteel]

Everything about this case is queer.

The remains apparently weren't scattered but the bodies were quite far apart.

If you have carried one dead body you know how heavy it is.

These bodies would have been placed in a vehicle so the perp ALREADY knew how heavy they were.

I simply cannot think of one logical reason why they were placed so far apart if already deceased.

Either he wanted to HIDE them, or he didn't.

One over here and one over there implies NO attempt at hiding...they would both be hidden TOGETHER.

So, he didn't want to hide them (no burial) and he just didn't care - why carry them ANYWHERE? The greenery was overgrown enough that just pushing them out of the car might have been enough to conceal them effectively for God knows how long.

There is no logic to carrying them in separately, that I can see, none at all.

:moo:

 

[Wondergirl]

Timing seemed to be in this person's favor, the time was right because the girls were alone. The time was right because no one was watching, and hiding them in the woods instead of dumping them on the side of the road gave this person the time to sit back and watch to see if they would be found, it gave them time for any evidence to fade away with each passing month. Time to get away from the whole area if they chose to do so. I don't think it mattered to this person if the girls were found as long as it wasn't right after they went missing.

Right you are.

Patient. A calculated risk taker. Lucky.

JMO

 

[Indy Anna]

Right you are.

Patient. A calculated risk taker. Lucky.

JMO

It seems a lot of these killers are risk takers. I think they get a thrill out of the adrenalin rush they get from taking chances. I can't help wondering how many times Lyric & Lizzie's killer(s) almost got caught but has managed to remain undetected. I have to believe that his luck will eventually run out. Hopefully, sooner rather than later.

 

[carbuff]

Everything about this case is queer.

The remains apparently weren't scattered but the bodies were quite far apart.

If you have carried one dead body you know how heavy it is.

These bodies would have been placed in a vehicle so the perp ALREADY knew how heavy they were.

I simply cannot think of one logical reason why they were placed so far apart if already deceased.

Either he wanted to HIDE them, or he didn't.

One over here and one over there implies NO attempt at hiding...they would both be hidden TOGETHER.

So, he didn't want to hide them (no burial) and he just didn't care - why carry them ANYWHERE? The greenery was overgrown enough that just pushing them out of the car might have been enough to conceal them effectively for God knows how long.

There is no logic to carrying them in separately, that I can see, none at all.

:moo:

That's all very logical, but you're thinking like a sane person

The most obvious reason not to carry them in together is that the person wasn't physically strong enough to do it that way. They were both big girls, around 90 lbs. Carrying both of them together would require quite a bit of strength.