IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #9

[nikb]

It would be like running horses into a catch pen...or a "draw"..you can block them. If there was a weapon used...they might just freeze. If the person(s) know side trails and fence openings, they could just leave with them...in virtual silence...to a waiting vehicle or way into the woods.

This scenario while understandable makes me so sad and scared for them.

 

[cluciano63]

Sorry to say this, but if a local took them, their bodies are someplace, probably within ten-twenty miles, IMO. Very unlikely to be holding two girls of this age for over two weeks now. They would have no way of knowing if LE should knock on the door and ask to search, and besides, it just is not that easy to hold one person, much less two. Easier to take them and then be "rid" of them, I fear. Professional searchers really should be called in, IMO.

 

[Sunlight]

This scenario while understandable makes me so sad and scared for them.

Me too..but it is only one of several scenarios...some being that they are in safe hands..others not so much. The whole situation is frustrating and tragic.

 

[katydid23]

Maybe it was a "secret" between the Aunt and one or both Niece(s)? I'm trying to think of a better word because "secret" implies a negative and that's not what I mean. You know, one of those bonding things? "shhh don't tell Gramma but we found this super cool lake/bike trail!" Or "we met this boy..." (though they do seem a bit young for that). They "confided" in their Aunt and if she felt there wasn't a reason to be nervous about the ride/trail in such a small town environment, she didn't feel the need to break the girls' confidence and say anything?

I don't have personal experience as a parent but I've heard this can be a good thing and healthy. If the kid has someone they know they can confide in and talk to about stuff they're maybe not so sure about telling their parents, even GREAT parents, they might also confide in that person about much bigger stuff later. At 8 or 10 it might be admitting to sneaking off to the lake, at 12 it might be "this boy wants to kiss me." If the kid trusts someone in the family to talk to IMO that's a good thing, and it'd take something pretty serious to make it worth breaking their trust and telling Mom/Dad/Gramma/whoever. Obviously possible/likely abduction counts as serious and then all bets are off IMO. Maybe that's why Aunt T. is now talking about it?

I'm not a parent but as a real life example, just to explain what I mean in terms of it being sort of an "innocent secret." I knew my neighbors' son had a "girlfriend" before they did because we went to the fair with our neighbors and the son pulled me aside to ask for advice about buying a girl a gift. He wanted to get her something nice (as you're going to find at the fair ) that he could afford. He wanted to make sure it wasn't cheesy, TOO nice and might scare her off, but nice enough that she might kiss him. Maybe even <gasp> on the lips. The kids were both around 12-13 so definitely at an age where lots of first "on the lips" kisses or first serious crushes happen and I'd even seen the girl before when they walked past our house - it was obvious she liked him. I didn't think it was anything bad, but he begged me not to tell his parents because he was afraid they'd think he was too young and wouldn't let him talk to her. He also also wanted to make sure she was "the one" before he introduced her to them... lol I just now remembered that and how cute it was. Funny thing is his parents aren't super conservative and his Dad probably would've high-fived him for liking this girl, but for whatever reason the son just felt more comfortable talking to me about it.

I don't talk to him regularly but over the last 8 years (holy crap I feel old), every so often he's confided in me or asked my advice about things and I know that likely wouldn't have happened if I'd told his parents about the girl/gift when he was younger. In his high school years I'd like to think I steered him away from a few bad situations... even some situations he KNEW were bad but he didn't quite know how to get out of, wasn't comfortable talking to his parents about it, and I hope/think the advice helped. He has great parents, it's just one of those things. IMO it's good for a kid to have someone they can confide in as long as that person has their best interests at heart (parent, relative... the best interests is the most important!). The fuzzy part is when does that person need to stay the confidante and when do they need to talk to the parents, IMO and all just my personal experience.

OK sorry that story got really long.

Great post. And I totally agree. Sometimes a favorite Aunt will have certain info that a loving protective grandmother will not have. It works that way in many families and it is not wrong or bad, just the way some things are.

My husband did not know every single thing our daughter told me when she was a teen, because it would have been too much for him to deal with. lol And my son and my husband had their own little secrets over the years as well. Like how much my son spent on his stupid tire rims.

I don't think Aunt T. was keeping secrets, she just knew more about some of the things the girls did because her 11 yr old probably was talkative too.

 

[superbee]

So I guess we are all still confused about what 'exactly' Aunt T. was saying. It seemed like she was implying that the girls rode to the lake with the neighbor girls. But thinking back, she might have held back a bit from saying that explicitly. I have to watch the replay to know for sure.

She said { paraphrasing] to clarify, the girls did KNOW about the lake because the three girls across the street rode there all of the time...

Kids talk about alot of things amongst themselves that they never tell their parents, but will share with other kids they play with. I wondered if there were any children the girls ages close around Heather's home. And did they play together, go for walks, bike rides, have sleepovers together?

I suspect LE have spoken to these girls, and other friends of the Elizabeth and Luric, and have asked them not to speak about what they know. A couple of times as kids we saw things that happened in our town, and the police asked us not to say anything until the investigations were over. Simply to not affect the memories of the others LE were speaking to. Of course nothing as tragic as this, and much shorter investigations.

 

[Ollipop]

So, is it just a section of a continuous trail that is narrow at that point with fencing on both sides and then opens up and goes on? In other words, there is no end to that area where you have to turn around?

Correct. There is a map in the first post of the thread that shows it, I believe. The trail runs from Lafayette Rd (N E'dale), leads south, then after crossing Arbutus Ave, curves west, continues through this narrow portion and around the lake, where it forks either back north to Gilbert or continues along the lake to the parking area.

 

[Sunlight]

Hmmmm.....UNLESS, Tammy wasn't supposed to reveal that they had been there before or knew the way...(protective custody scenario)...MOO Remember, some family members were told by an authority or attorney not to say anything. She may not be "in the loop". MOO

 

[Jules71]

BBM -

snip -

4 p.m. - The girls' bikes are located along the bike trail on the southeast corner of Meyers Lake by an Evansdale firefighter. Elizabeth's purse, which contained a cell phone, was found nearby.

snip -

The purse was on the lake-side of the fence, about 10 feet to the east of the bikes and about 2 feet from the fence, officials said.

http://wcfcourier.com/news/local/up...cle_18411a90-cd32-11e1-a656-0019bb2963f4.html




urse was 10 feet to the east of the bikes and two feet from the fence.

Good find. I don't remember seeing this info before.

The purse was on the lake-side of the fence, about 10 feet to the east of the bikes and about 2 feet from the fence, officials said.

 

[otto]

I was going to say it would have to be more than one person to control them, then I remembered the Lisk girls. He controlled them, I imagine by using fear of hurting the other one, probably had a weapon. But in this case, it seems like the bikes thrown down and not on kickstands, seems to me they could have taken off running. If so, it would have to be more than one person to catch them and gain control.

There's uncertainty about whether the bikes were thrown down. The cyclist claims that there was a bike in the path and he swerved to go around it. He didn't move the bike, but left it where it was. One police spokesman has said that the bikes were leaning against the fence. Perhaps the bikes were found lying on the path and police moved them, perhaps the girls left the bikes leaning on the fence and the cyclists sighting is unrelated, perhaps a perp put the bikes there later to completely confuse police. There's just something about the location of the bikes that bothers me ... it seems like a low risk place to abduct children because it's secluded, but it seems like a high risk place because the abductor had to get the children to the end of one of the fences without anyone else coming down the trail.

 

[shefner]

We really need something to break open on this case. Everyday that goes by is a bad day.....and worse than the day before. LE can say what they want about the girls being alive but statistics show us the true picture. I pray they are alive. We need to find them...soon.

 

[Ollipop]

callyn -
Click on my picture below. You will see the fence highlighted in yellow.

The red dots indicate where I believe the unlocked gate to be and where the bikes/purse were found.

View attachment 25105

The Maiden Lane in that pic is deceiving, as it is drawn over the top of the pic and not actually correct. You can see the cleared area in the woods that was once Maiden Lane (and I believe I mistakenly called it Melody Lane before.)

And OMG, there is an owl RIGHT OUTSIDE my living room window as I type this. Cool and yikes.

 

[nikb]

Regarding the "secrets" with Aunt Tammy, I posted the same thing earlier. Now that I've heard the the girls may have been to the lake before, I feel even stronger that Aunt Tammy knew what the girls had been up to. That's why she focused on the lake when she learned the girls were missing. IMO

Yep, I agree totally. I think I was typing my way-too-long story when you posted that.

 

[katydid23]

There's uncertainty about whether the bikes were thrown down. The cyclist claims that there was a bike in the path and he swerved to go around it. He didn't move the bike, but left it where it was. One police spokesman has said that the bikes were leaning against the fence. Perhaps the bikes were found lying on the path and police moved them, perhaps the girls left the bikes leaning on the fence and the cyclists sighting is unrelated, perhaps a perp put the bikes there later to completely confuse police. There's just something about the location of the bikes that bothers me ... it seems like a low risk place to abduct children because it's secluded, but it seems like a high risk place because the abductor had to get the children to the end of one of the fences without anyone else coming down the trail.

TRUE. But it seems like true predators, especially ones that hunt for victims in the daylight out in the open, are not afraid of high risk behavior. In fact they are actually kind of drawn to it, and attracted and turned on by stupid risky behavior. It is like a rush to them. They see an opportunity and they go for it, even if it seems risky.

 

[otto]

I see your point. I have wondered if the perp might have convinced the girls to drop their bikes and meet him somewhere nearby for some alluring reason. Like leave your bikes here and let's go over here to the dock...especially if he was a 'friend' and they trusted him for some reason. he may have been hiding in those shrubs when he got them to stop quickly right there.

There is no dock in the area. If someone convinced the girls to help him do something, the girls should have at least walked their bikes to an area where they could do something - beyond the confines of the double fences.

 

[katydid23]

There is no dock in the area. If someone convinced the girls to help him do something, the girls should have at least walked their bikes to an area where they could do something - beyond the confines of the double fences.

I think some of the houses have small docks for their paddle boats, IIRC. But no matter, I was using the term dock as an example of a perp trying to lure the girls away.

 

[Snufamonbobball]

LE will never come out and say they think they are dead. If people believe they are gone, they will stop looking. Elizabeth Smart, prime example, if they had said they thought she was dead, the tipsters might have discounted the sightings. Unless they have FORENSIC evidence saying otherwise, they will never consider them anything other than alive.

Same thing with the clothing descriptions. They want ALL tips about young girls, a perp could have changed their clothes.

 

[Ollipop]

Thanks for the illustration. That, together with knowing it's 210 paces, again makes me wonder why someone would choose the double fence area to accost the children. It seems like someone would take a huge risk of running into someone on the trail while forcing the children to walk to the an area where they could be taken off the path. It would be just as easy to stop them at the beginning of the double fence area and there would be far less risk of running into a cyclist on the trail.

FTR, I was under the impression that the bikes weren't found directly adjacent to the gate, but farther east towards where the fence terminates. However, the police tape kept ppl out of basically all the spot that is yellow in that pic, so I figured it was more or less in the middle. It could have just been a convenient way to rope off the area, tho. For all we know, the bikes may have indeed been found just steps from where the fence ends, I believe. I don't think LE has confirmed the exact location or orientation of the bikes when found. TG claims he swerved around them laying across the trail, the FBI spokeswoman confirmed that a witness had spotted them where they were found (I speculate that the FBI witness and TG are one and the same), and the Sheriff spokesman said that "when he arrived," the bikes were leaning against the fence.

 

[Sunlight]

The Maiden Lane in that pic is deceiving, as it is drawn over the top of the pic and not actually correct. You can see the cleared area in the woods that was once Maiden Lane (and I believe I mistakenly called it Melody Lane before.)

And OMG, there is an owl RIGHT OUTSIDE my living room window as I type this. Cool and yikes.

"Maiden" Lane? Wow. I assume it was vigorously checked out...I'm assuming only locals know about it? MOO

 

[katydid23]

Judge jeanine is being replayed on Fox now.

 

[AmandaReckonwith]

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