ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Died in Apparent Homicide - Moscow #2

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I’m with you 100% until the last two points. I think you COULD be right, but I will counter with the following scenario:

Imagine the two girls out at a bar and then the food truck. What if they attracted or possibly even talked to the wrong person? What if some guy felt he had been led on or possibly humiliated by the girls, harbored resentment, snapped, and decided to follow them home and kill them? And what if that same guy didn’t know them well enough to know there would be 4 other people in that house? I think that is possible. So while I do think your hypothesis is quite possible, and maybe even probable, I also think the perp being someone they knew or had interacted with acting alone in his crime is also possible as well.

I do think Ethan was an unintended victim, unfortunately. Wrong place at the wrong time. Unless some person or persons followed him and his girlfriend home from their party, I feel it’s highly likely the killer(s) had no idea he was there and only killed him because he encountered them.

I def think the work history as a server at the Mad Greek (sic) may play into this -- it's a job where a generalized pleasantness is expected (and rewarded with tips) and where a patron can come to feel a "connection" with a server, without recognizing the difference between that server's work and personal modes.

I can imagine the perpetrator meeting KG/ MM in the specific context of, say, the food truck or afterparty and trying to make a connection based on another context entirely, and becoming angry in the process.
 
IMO, their ease of purchase could make it a bit more difficult to pinpoint who might have purchased one. On the other hand, it does beg a question: can law enforcement (FBI) get access to Amazon purchases shipped to a specific geographic region?
I am thinking that law enforcement can get such information from many companies.

To my knowledge, there is no true legal expectation of privacy regarding purchases. Rather, some businesses may routinely sell purchaser information to advertising services.

Likewise, the other party in a purchase can freely choose to cooperate with police inquiries at any time, no matter what type of item was purchased. That cooperation can probably include the names of people who purchased anything from a car to a Kabar knife.

Couple the above with Amazon's giga brain computers and I bet such a list could be generated very quickly. The police could also go to specialized websites on the internet selling knives as well as knife catalogs. Smokey Mountain Knife Works comes to my mind.

Though as you noted, Kabars can be purchased from a variety of sources, the list of "Kabar Kabar" sources is still pretty finite and purchases are tracked. Thus, really hoping that the knife is a genuine Kabar and not a knock off that was purchased at a swap meet for cash two years ago.
 
***UPDATED NOV 16, NEW INFO IN RED***

VICTIMS:
EC = Ethan Chapin [IG / FB], a 20-year-old from Conway, Washington [1]; freshman, member of Sigma Chi fraternity majoring in recreation, sport and tourism management in the College of Education, Health and Human Sciences. [7]; school indicates hometown was Mount Vernon, WA [9]; one of triplets that all attended UofI[36]; staying overnight with his girlfriend XK [39]
FAMILY INTERVIEW: NOV 15

XK = Xana Kernodle [IG / TikTok / FB], 20, from Avondale, Arizona [1]; junior from Post Falls majoring in marketing in the College of Business and Economics, member of Pi Beta Phi sorority [7]; dating EC, worked as server at Mad Greek restaurant [36]

MM = Madison Mogen [IG / TikTok / FB], a 21-year-old from Coeur d'Alene, Idaho [1]; senior majoring in marketing in the College of Business and Economics, member of the Pi Beta Phi sorority [7]; worked as server at Mad Greek restaurant [36]

KG = Kaylee Goncalves [IG / TikTok / FB], 21, from Rathdrum, Idaho [1]; senior majoring in general studies in the College of Letters, Arts and Social Sciences, member of the Alpha Phi sorority [7]; middle of five children, owner of a dog named Murphy [31], was going to start a new tech job in TX in Jan [36]
FAMILY INTERVIEW: NOV 15 | NOV 16

LOCATION



TIMELINE

AUG 16

MM posts a "meet the roommates" image on IG [12]

AUG 22
MM posts a "first day of school" image on IG [11]

SEP 12
POSSIBLY UNRELATED: man threatened students on UofI campus with a knife [35]; students were walking to Greek Row, non-student flashed a knife to threaten students, turned self into law enforcement; cannot say whether it is connected [47]

OCT 29
XK's final IG post, wishing EC a happy birthday [13]

F NOV 11
  • MM's final IG post [10]
  • KG's final texts with her sister [31]
Sa NOV 12
  • KG's final IG post w roommates [15]
  • PM - neighbors hear loud music from somewhere "in the neighborhood"; did NOT hear screaming or gunshots [33]
  • PM - neighbors report "hearing noise from the house Saturday evening but said it sounded like a party rather than an altercation." [40]; Moscow PD states there is no indication of party at the residence [47]

Su NOV 13 - DEATH OF VICTIMS, BODIES DISCOVERED
  • [TIME?] - MM & KG took Uber to get food [43@0:45]
  • 1:33AM - 1:53AM [41] - MM & KG seen on Twitch video from Grub Truck food truck [38], where they order pasta; manager states they were "slightly intoxicated" [41] - VIDEO from Gray Hughes Investigates
  • after 1:45AM - EC & XK arrived home from a party; MM & KG arrived home from a bar [47]; MM & KG took Uber home, let dog out, locked house up [43@0:45]
  • 3AM-4AM - Estimated time of death [9]
  • 11:58AM [20] - LE respond to "a report of an unconscious person" (later verified to be one of the deceased [30]); according to EC's mother, bodies were found by "a friend" [32] who does not live in the house [39]; fire and EMS also on scene but did not go into residence [1]; First responders "discovered four individuals who were deceased" [20] - EC was found on floor of second level [36]; officers describe a bloody crime scene, "especially on upper floors of the house" [37]
  • ~12PM - coroner informed of 4 homicides [45@0:15]
  • 2:16 PM - UofI FB post advises students to shelter in place due to investigation of homicide on King St [3]
  • 2:51 PM - UofI FB post lifts shelter-in-place, states that LE are still investigating death of 4 people but do not believe there is an active threat [4]
  • ~5PM - 5:30PM - coroner arrives on scene [45@0:30]
  • 5:25PM - UofI FB post states that LE is still investigating, but there is no ongoing threat [5]
  • 9:17 PM - University president posts on FB about deaths, cancels class for M Nov 14, offers counseling resources [6]
  • PM - neighbors state they saw police, "group of women crying while draped in emergency blankets" [33]

M NOV 14 - DECLARED A HOMICIDE INVESTIGATION
  • online and in-person classes at University canceled [1]

  • [TIME?] LE questioned manager of Moscow Building Supply about whether they carry KA-BAR knives, which they do not [44]
  • 12:50 PM - MSM reports that 4 students found dead near campus [1]
  • 12:21 PM - UofI FB posts identities of victims [7], states "Moscow police do not believe there is an ongoing community risk based on information gathered during the preliminary investigation" [8]
  • 1:31 PM - search dogs at scene [29]
  • 1:49 PM - MSM reports that it is being treated as homicide investigation [2]
  • PM - Moscow Police Capt. Anthony Dahlinger told the Idaho Statesman Monday night that none of the deceased students are believed to be responsible for the deaths. [9], NYT reporter also states that county coroner said it was NOT a murder-suicide [17]
  • 5:56PM - Mayor refuses to confirm NYT's "crime of passion" description [21], states it is one possibility [32]
  • PM - media tries to canvas neighbors, who decline to make a comment, "most" stating that they didn't really know the victims; state that police had previously canvassed neighborhood as well [32]

Tu NOV 15 - PRELIMINARY CAUSE OF DEATH RELEASED: STABBING
no weapon found, no suspect in custody

  • Moscow PD release statement - "Evidence indicates that this was a targeted attack." [16]
  • Some students, feeling unsafe, leave early for Thanksgiving break [18]
  • Coroner calls the scene "gruesome" [34] (comment possibly taken out of context[see 45@3:45]); does not believe toxicology report will be relevant [45@3:00]; did not know timeframe of death [45@3:00]; declines to comment on where bodies were found [45@4:20]
  • DailyMail (TABLOID) posts image they claim is blood "oozing" out of residence; state that scene was "the worst [police] had ever seen; "there was blood everywhere;" "have never seen anything like this"; trash taken to garbage depot [36]
  • KG's family interview states that door had a keypad code [42@1:45]

  • 8:36AM - vigil postponed until after Thanksgiving [28] - cf W Nov 16
  • 11:24AM - LE press release states they are still searching for "an edged weapon such as a knife" that was used in attack [27]
  • 2:07PM - LE stop garbage truck from leaving residence, as they have not recovered weapon [26]
  • 2:40PM - bodies in Spokane County, autopsies to take place on Wed; preliminary findings show stabbing as cause of death; "a lot of blood;" no indication of substance use [25]
  • 4:25PM - confirmed that FBI is working with local LE [19]
  • 6:36PM - county prosecutor states there is a sealed warrant issued at residence; "a handful of other warrants" in the works [24]
  • 7:11PM - Families of MM & KG release statement calling for justice [23]

W NOV 16
  • AM - Video shared online of MM & KG at Grub Truck food truck [38] - cf Su NOV 13
  • Parents speak out against LE & school for "lack of information [40]
  • Manager of Moscow Building Supply states that LE questioned them "more than once" about whether they carry KA-BAR knives, including on M Nov 14; he states they do not [44] - cf M NOV 14

  • 3:30PM - news conference planned by ISP & Moscow PD [22]
    • Moscow PD chief speaks
      • victims arrived home after 1:45 AM from party (EC & XK) and bar (MM & KG) [47] - cf Su Nov 13
      • no sign of forced entry - no damage to anything; door was open when LE arrived [47]
      • autopsies taking place today [47]
      • reviewing crime scene evidence, video, etc [47]
      • do not have a suspect, weapon, or clothing of suspect at this time - cannot say there is no threat to community [47]
      • no indication of party at the residence [47] - cf Sa Nov 12
      • there were ("we believe 2") other people (roommates) home at the time of the attack; was not a hostage situation and were not injured; they were present at residence when LE arrived; declines to comment on what they have stated [47]
      • declines to comment on who the 911 caller was [47]
      • has not identified anything missing/stolen from the residence [47]
      • declines to comment on location of bodies within the residence [47]
      • Sep 12 incident - students were walking to Greek Row, non-student flashed a knife to threaten students, turned self into law enforcement; cannot say whether it is connected [47] - cf Sep 12
  • 5PM - vigil to be held in Coeur d' Alene, ID [46]
  • 5PM - vigil planned on University's Administration Lawn [9] - postponed as of T NOV 15 [28] rescheduled to NOV 30 [34]

SOURCES:
[1] 4 University of Idaho students found dead near campus - 6ABC - Nov 14
[2] Four university students found dead near campus - MirrorUK - Nov 14
[3] UofI FB - Nov 13
[4] UofI FB - Nov 13
[5] UofI FB - Nov 13
[6] UofI FB - Nov 13
[7] UofI FB - Nov 14
[8] UofI FB - Nov 14
[9] 4 Slain University of Idaho students are victims - ElkoDaily - Nov 14
[10] MM Instagram - Nov 11
[11] MM Instagram - Aug 22
[12] MM Instagram - Aug 16
[13] XK Instagram - Oct 29
[14] EC Instagram - May 13
[15] KG Instagram - Nov 12
[16] Moscow PD - Nov 15
[17] @NickAtNews (NYT) tweet - Nov 14
[18] @NickAtNews (NYT) tweet THREAD - Nov 15
[19] @NickAtNews (NYT) tweet - Nov 15
[20] Four university of Idaho Students discovered dead - Law&Crime - Nov 15
[21] @AndrewBaertlein (KTVB) tweet - Nov 14
[22] @AndrewBaertlein (KTVB) tweet - Nov 16
[23] @estherbower_TV (KXLY) tweet - Nov 15
[24] @estherbower_TV (KXLY) tweet - Nov 15
[25] @estherbower_TV (KXLY) tweet THREAD - Nov 15
[26] @estherbower_TV (KXLY) tweet THREAD - Nov 15
[27] @estherbower_TV (KXLY) tweet THREAD - Nov 15
[28] @estherbower_TV (KXLY) tweet - Nov 15
[29] @estherbower_TV (KXLY) tweet - Nov 14
[30] @dugganreports (KTVB) tweet - Nov 15
[31] Family of alleged Moscow homicide victim remembers - Nov 14
[32] Suspect sought in U of I deaths - Idaho Statesman - Nov 15
[33] Four U of I students died in senseless act of violence - LM Tribute - Nov 14
[34] Homicide investigation underway - KHQ - Nov 15
[35] Man reportedly threatened students with knife - ISJ - Sep 15
[36] Blood oozes through walls of home - DailyMail (TABLOID) - Nov 15
[37] University of Utah homicide victims - FoxNews - Nov 15
[38] @johnwebbtv (KHQ-TV) - Nov 16
[39] 4 Idaho students killed in 'targeted attack' - ABCNews - Nov 16
[40] Slain university of Idaho victims' parents frustrated - ABCNews - Nov 16
[41] Chilling video shows 2 of the 4 - DailyMail (TABLOID) - Nov 16
[42] Extended interview with the family of Kaylee Goncalves VIDEO - KHQ - Nov 15
[43] Idaho College Students murdered in 'Crime of Passion' VIDEO - Inside Edition - Nov 16
[44] Police investigation narrows to search for combat-style knife - Idaho Statesman - Nov 16
[45] Latah County Coroner says all four students killed near University of Idaho were victims - KREM - Nov 15
[46] @estherbower_TV (KXLY) tweet - Nov 16
[47] Moscow Police Dept Press Conference - Nov 16
I am bumping this for everyone. A lot of hard work went into preparing this I am sure. It contains links, a timeline, and answers to many questions I see.

Also, the first page of the thread has a link to the media thread where articles can be found.
 
I def think the work history as a server at the Mad Greek (sic) may play into this -- it's a job where a generalized pleasantness is expected (and rewarded with tips) and where a patron can come to feel a "connection" with a server, without recognizing the difference between that server's work and personal modes.

I can imagine the perpetrator meeting KG/ MM in the specific context of, say, the food truck or afterparty and trying to make a connection based on another context entirely, and becoming angry in the process.
I thought the same that it could have been a customer that maybe had an eye on one of the girls . Some creepy guy whose advances were rejected . Just speculation .
 
How long after the discovery of a crime are the crime scenes themselves usually cleaned? There has been a lot of talk about the potential entrance of the perp through the sliding door, but that picture looks immaculate - no blood on door, floor, tracks (that can be seen, anyway, it’s a night photo), etc. Makes me wonder if the killer exited another way, hard to imagine they’d go through the front, however, where there is a greater chance of being spotted.

Ya right you would think there would be bloody footprints somewhere or a bloody handprint somewhere near either doors and I’ve seen pictures of both and don’t notice any
 
There is a ladder right there on the left side of the 1st floor?
There is a ladder leaning against the house, but we don't know whether it belongs to the property or the investigators. Here's a view of the back of the house showing the 3rd floor balcony. There are no stairs leading to the balcony.

1668727590151.png

DailyMail
 
Which means the dog was there at the time of the murders . Which to me is strange that he wasn’t barking insanely while his owners are hurt .
I don't find this strange at all tbh. I have two dogs and big dogs at that, and they react enthusiastically to anyone and everyone who comes near or inside our home. That's just their nature. Perhaps this dog was similar in that sense.
 
Alright so let's lay this out a bit.

My understanding is that the two girls who were not injured lived on the first floor. The couple was on the second floor/main living floor and the two girls who were murdered lived upstairs. Based on the layout of the house it seems you could walk in the "front" door which led into the first floor where the two survivors were or you could enter from the second floor in the kitchen area as the home was on a hill. So two possible entrances and exits.

We know that a "door" was left open. They don't specify which door that was. We also know the 911 call reported an unconcious person. Given the undoubtedly bloody scene and layout of the house, to me this implies somebody was looking into the house and saw a person lying on the ground but could not reach them. As if they had been able to, I don't think it would have been described as an "unconscious" person but rather a murder victim. I also think this means it wasn't one of the roommates who called 911 as they would have been able to access that person. I think it was the downstairs door that was left open as based on the Zillow photos, the "unconscious" person would have been visible on the second floor and if that door was left open, who ever saw the body could have entered the house to check on them. I think the unconscious person was one of the couple who slept on the second floor.

So piecing this together a bit...

The murderer gets to the second floor. Not sure how. Maybe a window was unlocked or maybe the door itself was unlocked. There was no sign of forced entry. They could have either entered and exited from the first floor or entered on the second floor and exited on the first. I suspect the whole house was sleeping. They go upstairs and murder the two girls. I'm guessing it was in their sleep. Then they go downstairs. Now maybe the couple on the second floor heard a noise and was awake and came to investigate? Then the intruder murders them both to protect himself (or herself, I suppose), and one of them is murdered somewhere in view of the door of the kitchen or the kitchen windows. If they were also targets then I guess the murderer could have killed them in bed but one of them tried to run but was killed.

The murderer then flees out the downstairs door and leaves it open. They could have run past the bedrooms down there in a haste to leave or maybe tried the doors but they were locked?

Then time goes by...around noon someone shows up. The rumor is they had plans with one of the survivors but it could have even been a neighbor or someone who walked by. The person comes to the second floor door, which is a sliding screen door, and can make out that there is a person lying on the ground but probably can't see the blood. They call 911 and report an unconscious person. First responders arrive and find the murder scene.

My questions: if there was an open door, why wasn't the person who saw the unconscious person able to enter the house? Unless maybe they didn't try to go around to other, unlocked door? I just assume the door in the kitchen was locked or else the person who saw the body would have tried to enter. If it was a friend of one of the girls alive in the basement, why didn't they call them and tell them to come upstairs and check on the person?

All in all, a lot of questions and my speculation could be completely off. I don't understand how they can say this isn't a threat. Even if there was a specific target, this person obviously has no qualms murdering four people at once. How can you say he wouldn't murder someone else? I also don't think it's odd the two girls slept through it. I suspect most of these individuals were murdered in their sleep so there may have been little to no noise. They were probably out late and could have had music playing or earbuds in. What a horrific thing to wake up to.

JMO.
I don't know or missed where we know that the uninjured girls live on the first floor. I think that is a supposition. Moreover, we don't know where they slept in the house this night. It was a friend of Ethan's that discovered the victims. Whether he/she was a neighbor, we don't know. (per Ethan's mom)

We don't know if the door was left open, only that it was open when LE arrived. We don't know that the 911 caller did not enter the house. If I am wrong, please correct me. I may have missed a link or story.
 
The sister mentioned that Kaylee let the dog outside. I took that to mean the dog was there at the home (but outside).
I don't think that the dog would be left outside in the weather below, MOO.

Nov 12, 2022 Weather Conditions:
36 / 27 °F
Ice fog.
Humidity: 93%
Barometer: 30.21 "Hg
W
Wind: 7.457 mph
 
Bedding at the forensics lab confirms what we believed --that one or more of the victims were sleeping when they faced the intruder.


Mabbutt said it is unknown who was attacked first. She said it is possible some wounds on the bodies were defensive.

DNA samples, including from the clothing, bedding and nail clippings, still need to be tested at a forensics lab.

Where does the article say or imply anyone was sleeping?
 
I don't know or missed where we know that the uninjured girls live on the first floor. I think that is a supposition. Moreover, we don't know where they slept in the house this night. It was a friend of Ethan's that discovered the victims. Whether he/she was a neighbor, we don't know. (per Ethan's mom)

We don't know if the door was left open, only that it was open when LE arrived. We don't know that the 911 caller did not enter the house. If I am wrong, please correct me. I may have missed a link or story.
We know this:

"Officers at the scene on Tuesday described a bloody crime scene, particularly on the upper floors of the house."


Since the bloody crime scene was on the upper floors, it seems most likely that the surviving girls were on the first floor.

During the press conference yesterday, police said the door was left open, but we don't know which door was left open.
 
In another case, for MP Misrach Ewuentie, who was found dead, I learned that media reporting on cases involving Princeton students use a certain policy to prevent copycats. MSM oftentimes will soften the news to make it more bearable, more palatable.

Consider these suggestions when listening to LEO phrase specific matters at a Press Conference. These Talking Points are for reporting suicide but if reporting, instead, 4 slashings think of their descriptions.

Screenshot 2022-11-17 5.21.10 PM.png

Recommendations - Reporting on Suicide

Has anyone developed a TimeLine of events?

I can hardly think of something so horrific as the slaughter of four vibrant young precious people. My condolences to all who knew and loved these children. The triplets minus one becomes only 2. Far too sad for me to hang around - will drop by from time to time, esp once there's an arrest. May that be soon. Very soon.
 
I don't find this strange at all tbh. I have two dogs and big dogs at that, and they react enthusiastically to anyone and everyone who comes near or inside our home. That's just their nature. Perhaps this dog was similar in that sense.
Yes but a dog can sense when an owner is hurt usually so during the commotion you would think this dog would be reacting in someway . Seems strange to think he was just sitting there quietly while they were all bieng murdered and even hours after
 
As a quick exercise, who would have combative training using edged weapons?

Current / former military, including reserves? All branches or just Marines and Army Infantry, MP's, any SOCOM community?
To this point, I wonder if the university has students in the ROTC program? In my long-ago college days, I recall seeing many students dressed in military camouflage on days when they had ROTC events/training to attend. Surely those students would have been trained to use military hand weapons like knives, no?
I also think, however, that a school like this one might have a higher-than-usual proportion of students who are hunters/have hunted wild animals, due to the school's location and its higher proportion of in-state students to out-of-staters. So even limiting the pool of potential suspects to groups of students who have experience with knives like the one we surmise was used in these murders might not really make a dent.*

*Not implying this crime was necessarily committed by a student as opposed to a local person or even someone just passing through the town.
 
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