ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 22

[Jakehansen1988]

But Ancestry and 23andme have cooperated with LE when there's a subpoena. It's getting more and more common. At any rate, early reports by a certain NG about DNA being found have not at all been confirmed by LE, so I'm despairing a little that they have any perp DNA.

I sure hope they do - because if they do, they'll find him.

If they have some DNA, and no CODIS hits, could one of the options be to generate a DNA phenotype (like in this case)? Would love your thoughts.

 

[waldojabba]

I surely don't know how his parents would feel about the statements of K's parents. Frankly, I don't care bc we're talking about an unsolved quadruple homicides.

Perhaps, his parents took him out of the country so he could not be interviewed by FBI or LEO, photographed for potential injuries, etal.

If my daughter was killed and one of the last people to see her was someone who "fled" the country, I'd be an angry hot mess, too.

I agree with the G's, because I'd also be interested in knowing exactly how LEO was able to clear this person within an hour or so of the horrific crimes being reported (according the K's parents).

The thing is we don’t even know if the kid in question “fled” the country. I believe SG said “someone” told him that. He also said that LE did not take his dna. No back up /no proof /no substantiation. Just rumor as far as I can tell since it’s been a rumor elsewhere online. A lot of stirring up the pot and perhaps putting this person’s life in jeopardy. Imo it’s reckless and unnecessary. JMO

 

[Seattle1]

Bringing this over because I'm wondering myself how to handle this info. Self reporting for an answer.

Post in thread 'ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 21' ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 21

In the 12/5/22 Investigation Update by Moscow Police Department, I don't think it can be more clear that the authorities in charge of this case have not released additional detailed information to SG, and his recent statements during numerous interviews over the weekend should be considered his opinion only.

Also from the Moscow PD Update, Hoodie Guy (Male from the Grub Truck) is NOT a named POI/Suspect, and remains on the list of persons believed NOT to be involved in the murders per LE.

12/5/22

Updated Information:

• There have been statements and speculation about this case, victim injuries, cause of death, evidence collection and processing, and investigative techniques. With the active criminal investigation, law enforcement has not released additional facts to the family or the public.

We recognize the frustration this causes and that speculation proliferates in the absence of facts. However, we firmly believe speculation and unvetted information is a disservice to the victims, their families, and our community.

The Moscow Police Department is committed to providing information whenever possible but not at the expense of compromising the investigation and prosecution.

[..]

• At this time, no suspect has been identified and only vetted information that does not hinder the investigation will be released to the public. There is speculation, without factual backing, stoking community fears and spreading false information. We encourage referencing official releases for accurate information and updated progress.


With regard to Hoodie Guy, (the Male in Grub Truck Video) it's SG's opinion only (i.e., speculation and unvetted info) that LE cleared him too soon and SG wants his alibi released. SG has said if he believes the alibi is solid, he'll drop it.

Given that parents of victims have never governed criminal investigations, I'm perplexed why there's any question that a parent can name a POI/Suspect over law enforcement. This makes no sense to me. MOO

At this time in the investigation, detectives do not believe the following are involved in this crime:

• Two surviving roommates,
• Male in the Grub Truck surveillance video,
• Private party driver who took Kaylee and Madison home on November 13th ,
• The male Kaylee and Madison called numerous times during the early morning hours of November 13th,
• Any individual at the residence when 911 was called, or
• The individual on the lease who moved out of the residence before the school year started and was not present at the time of the incident.

https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/DocumentCenter/View/24875/12-05-22-Moscow-Homicide-Update

 

[Joyful Simpleton]

So I had some thoughts while out walking the dogs: LE would probably like for the Goncalves family to shut up so they can work the case in peace, and also to not give the killer the thrill of being on the news all over the country daily. But I think it's entirely possible - if he is indeed a serial killer in the making - that "his" story dropping out of the news would wake the urge to commit another murder, to be talked about again. It's a coin toss, but it's possible they are stopping him from re-offending quickly by doing what they are doing, and that's a good think in my book.

 

[jitterbugperfume]

I have been wondering if one of his parents are from another country - they may have dual citizenship or something. Makes it easier to stay abroad as long as you want. I have not heard anything verified about him, thought - him being kicked out of his frat or him being in another company. Has anyone else heard anything confirmed?

 

[10ofRods]

Not very common to near impossible.

They absolutely do not share information with law enforcement voluntarily and in the case of 23andMe no information has been shared so far, even with a subpoena. In the case of Ancestry.com they provide a transparency report (Ancestry Transparency Report - 2022) showing how little information is released (the latest release based on the reports was one in 2020).

Policy from their websites:

https://customercare.23andme.com/hc/en-us/articles/212271048-How-23andMe-Responds-to-Law-Enforcement-Requests-for-Customer-Information#:~:text=We%20will%20closely%20scrutinize%20all,customer%20information%20to%20law%20enforcement.

Ancestry Guide for Law Enforcement

www.ancestry.com

From your own link about 23and me - it says the opposite:

23andMe requires a valid legal process to consider producing information about our customers. Law enforcement agencies should read 23andMe's Guide for Law Enforcement document prior to contacting 23andMe.

A subpoena is a valid legal document. And 23andme HAS responded - not sure why you're saying they haven't. Again, from your link:

In certain circumstances, however, 23andMe may be required by law to comply with a valid court order, subpoena, or search warrant for genetic or personal information.

Look up the Helen Prusynski case (40 year old cold murder case solved with 23andme data after a subpoena).

But there's a way to do it without subpoena if there's a firm suspect and all that's needed to seal the deal to get an arrest warrant. And that's to go to a relative of the suspect - perhaps distant - and get them to submit to Ancestry and 23andme, and then share his/her results - then use a genealogist to give LE the names of all of that ancestor's descendants. That's resulted in quite a few convictions.

Getting someone to do this isn't as hard as you might think (often the perp has strained relationships with relatives or they may already be living in fear from knowing him/her).

I believe a subpoena for both Ancestry and 23 was used for the Norcal rapist - took 10 days to figure out who he was.

And of course, there's always GEDMatch. But Ancestry and 23 do not refuse to obey a court order (subpoena) in my understanding and that's what they say right on their websites.

23andme requires proper legal service of the subpoena and does not respond to certain international requests. If the Justice Dept files the confidentiality form (regarding notifying the person whose DNA provides the hit), 23andme will obey what the court decides on the issue.

 

[PrairieWind]

LE have not but as next of kin they were entitled to receive her death certificate. They are also close to M's parents who would have received hers.

Her Death Certificate would have only manner and cause of death, no details.

 

[OrangeRhyme]

I'd bet the rent it's not Hoodie Guy - nor the ex, nor the person(s) who gave K and M a ride, nor anyone they met at the bar that night. IMHO, this attack was planned days or weeks ahead by a psychopathic killer. Somebody had been watching that house and its residents. I've been wrong before, but I am sticking to my intuition on this one. JMHO.

I think it's a peer.
Somebody that knows them but maybe distantly, like was in one of their classes.

I'm just curious as someone from Ireland, is this dominating the news cycle and nightly news?
If so, it could be a good thing as someone close to the killer like a family member might discuss it with him and notice him acting strange.

 

[Jakehansen1988]

Alright, now I have to ask… was the dog swabbed for any DNA? Did the killer pet the dog? May have been some evidence there.

The press release from Moscow PD today confirms no to all those questions.

 

[10ofRods]

I’ve dealt with lots of subpoenas sent to tech companies. There is a huge difference between presenting a court order for information on a particular account and presenting a court order that would expose your entire database to analysis. That would be way overly broad and unlikely to get cooperation from the company.

I think you're misunderstanding the nature of these subpoenas. No one subpoenas to get the whole data base. But the company would still have to use legal means to quash the subpoena - so it's in the hands of a judge, not the company (nor LE).

The subpoena is almost always just to run one person's DNA through the system, looking for a small number of hits. Before releasing the info, 23andme sends an email or other communication to the person whose results are being released. IME, if it's not the actual perp, it requires more work on the part of LE (which is easy enough to do and where people like myself come in).

 

[ktm44]

So I had some thoughts while out walking the dogs: LE would probably like for the Goncalves family to shut up so they can work the case in peace, and also to not give the killer the thrill of being on the news all over the country daily. But I think it's entirely possible - if he is indeed a serial killer in the making - that "his" story dropping out of the news would wake the urge to commit another murder, to be talked about again. It's a coin toss, but it's possible they are stopping him from re-offending quickly by doing what they are doing, and that's a good think in my book.

I don't feel that LE really wants the family to shut up but I do think they would like it if they understood that they are not a member of LE and they are not qualified to be directly involved in the investigation.

If they have questions that need answers, they will consult with family members and don't want animosity complicating an investigation.

 

[ssnva1]

I know my dogs would never willingly be locked in a room with their people on the other side of that lock. Mine would likely bark loudly and destroy the door and frame to make their way back out to where they believe they belong (with me). And if they heard others in the home, even more damage and noise would have ensued.

But I don’t know Murphy, his common behaviors, or what he’d do if scared for himself or his owners.

ETA: I mean mine wouldn’t tolerate being locked alone in a room for long. About the length of a shower for me seems to be their level of tolerance With such. Mine are still both young (16 months and 7 months). Not sure how old Murphy is, or how well trained he is to tolerate being left alone.

Same! My dog would destroy the door and frame (I have pics of my laundry room to prove it..ugh). He’s also a 125lb Cane Corso. So there’s that. And if he heard any sound he would have tore that room apart trying to get out and get to me. There would be clear evidence.

 

[Balthazar]

Can autopsy results in the US be sealed to the next of kin?

They are alway available to the next of kin by written request. Next of kin can also have their own autopsy done. They must pay for it, but if your family member was a crime victim, it makes sense to have another autopsy done just to make sure nothing was missed and to get a second opinion on any questions you may have.

 

[jitterbugperfume]

I think it's a peer.
Somebody that knows them but maybe distantly, like was in one of their classes.

I'm just curious as someone from Ireland, is this dominating the news cycle and nightly news?
If so, it could be a good thing as someone close to the killer like a family member might discuss it with him and notice him acting strange.

That is a great point. This person HAS to have been acting unusual. Seems like a family member, especially a parent or significant other, would see that the perp is off his baseline and think something is up.

 

[Diddian]

Thinking more on my earlier post about the possibility (among other feasible possibilities) that Murphy could have been removed from the home during the murders and placed in one of the resident’s cars and then returned after. That would have prevented him from alerting others while the perp(s) were inside the home.

The perp(s) would need to know where the car keys were to be found to do this, so would likely be close acquaintance(s). And it would also indicate a certain level of care for the dog that seems unusual for a murderous stranger. I’d expect most would simply kill the dog.

But if KG’s new RR was selected as the chosen “holding pen,” that would be good because - since it was new to her - it would likely not yet have had very many friends inside. So, DNA collected where the perp(s) might have touched would be limited to a much smaller pool If looking at close acquaintances (but a large pool if looking at strangers). If another car (say MM’s) we’re chosen, the opposite would be true.

 

[jitterbugperfume]

They are alway available to the next of kin by written request. Next of kin can also have their own autopsy done. They must pay for it, but if your family member was a crime victim, it make sense to have another autopsy done just to make sure nothing was missed.

Has it been confirmed that SG had a private autopsy done? I have heard that he did, but not sure if it is verified.

 

[girlrx]

Ok, sorry too broad of a question.

 

[kittythehare]

So I had some thoughts while out walking the dogs: LE would probably like for the Goncalves family to shut up so they can work the case in peace, and also to not give the killer the thrill of being on the news all over the country daily. But I think it's entirely possible - if he is indeed a serial killer in the making - that "his" story dropping out of the news would wake the urge to commit another murder, to be talked about again. It's a coin toss, but it's possible they are stopping him from re-offending quickly by doing what they are doing, and that's a good think in my book.

Good point, well made.
I too am wondering when he /she or they will kick off again.
I hadn't actually considered news being 'heat' for killer/s but I reckon you're right.
That is if killer/s are still in town and have not moved on.

 

[jitterbugperfume]

Well as far as DNA goes, unless its directly from a victim or darn near close the rest of it is all questionable considering it was a party house. Worst place to try to collect evidence and make any sense out of. I'm sure they are going over all of that which we may not know of and looks to us like they are slow moving but in fact may be tracking down individuals we are not even aware of. I really do hope they find something and soon.

I've heard if it is blood DNA it is a bigger deal and easier to use as evidence.

 

[NickoD]

From your own link about 23and me - it says the opposite:

23andMe requires a valid legal process to consider producing information about our customers. Law enforcement agencies should read 23andMe's Guide for Law Enforcement document prior to contacting 23andMe.

A subpoena is a valid legal document. And 23andme HAS responded - not sure why you're saying they haven't. Again, from your link:

In certain circumstances, however, 23andMe may be required by law to comply with a valid court order, subpoena, or search warrant for genetic or personal information.

Look up the Helen Prusynski case (40 year old cold murder case solved with 23andme data after a subpoena).

But there's a way to do it without subpoena if there's a firm suspect and all that's needed to seal the deal to get an arrest warrant. And that's to go to a relative of the suspect - perhaps distant - and get them to submit to Ancestry and 23andme, and then share his/her results - then use a genealogist to give LE the names of all of that ancestor's descendants. That's resulted in quite a few convictions.

Getting someone to do this isn't as hard as you might think (often the perp has strained relationships with relatives or they may already be living in fear from knowing him/her).

I believe a subpoena for both Ancestry and 23 was used for the Norcal rapist - took 10 days to figure out who he was.

And of course, there's always GEDMatch. But Ancestry and 23 do not refuse to obey a court order (subpoena) in my understanding and that's what they say right on their websites.

23andme requires proper legal service of the subpoena and does not respond to certain international requests. If the Justice Dept files the confidentiality form (regarding notifying the person whose DNA provides the hit), 23andme will obey what the court decides on the issue.

I think you're still wrong so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I take their statement of "To date we have not released any customer information to law enforcement" as pretty clear cut.

Your referenced case of Helen Prusynski was solved via GEDmatch, not 23andMe.