ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 27

[DoctorPsychMike]

Question for anyone with relevant LE experience:
How do you think they are conducting the search for the car? I would suspect that first, they would look at matching vehicles by distance to crime scene. But then what? This is where having so many agents on the case might make the difference. That's probably a lot of conversations. I assume if I owned that car 10 miles away they would contact me and question me about my car's and my whereabouts that night. Memories are probably foggy this far out though. There are cases where distinguishing characteristics of specific makes/models break the case -- probably too much to hope for.

Ideally they would spray the interior with Luminol -- it's reasonable to think a bloodied perp would leave some blood behind even if he cleaned... If you have experience with this stuff, what do you think they're doing?

 

[debirlfan]

I guess it was maybe the first two weeks of this case I kept thinking and questioning this exact same question ('cept I followed it with 'why in the world do they think it's a recent purchase...?').

If there was someone LE was suspicious of, and they felt the murders were something that was recently triggered, rather than planned way ahead, then the killer might have recently bought the knife. Unfortunately, I fear the police may initially had tunnel vision regarding an individual, and then learned the person was innocent.

 

[Parsnip]

I think the same pathological over confidence possessed by this murderer that allowed him to walk into a home occupied by 6 human beings and a dog and kill 4 of them with a knife will also be his downfall. That type of trait would be difficult to suppress. He almost certainly believes he will never get caught and probably still has his precious knife and possibly the car LE is seeking if it was in fact his.

I’ll bet someone he knows has suspicions about him and just needs to pull the trigger on dropping a tip. Mom? Boss? Co-worker? Roommate? I hate to think of him having a wife or girlfriend, but maybe he does.

MOO

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

We need to add that to our list of possibilities.

I figure that the Elantra has 'issues'. Surely there are cameras somewhere in Moscow, ID that would have picked it up near a gas station or driving around town (unless it was only there on one night - which begs the question of how LE even know it was there, right?)

They have certainly gotten cell phone data from every phone in the square mile around the house, and some of those phones were moving in cars at the time they pinged - so they can try to match that up to any real time security video they might have. Some cars might have visible license plates - but what if one car is missing the front plate and has obscured the rear plate?

That could be indicative of a stolen car, right? But an innocent person who was just out driving around would see the call for info and clear it up...

If it's a stolen car with no cell data traveling along with it, that's unusual, since almost everyone has a cell phone. Someone might have deliberately left their phone at home, as part of an alibi.

jmo one thought about the stolen car being reported - potentially, the person could be incapacitated (lives alone, remote location, left dead, etc.) or doesn't know it's missing yet (long-term vacation, traveling for work, etc.)

The killer could have been hiding the car away, too. Ted Bundy did that. It could have been long-time stolen, repainted, although that would be pretty stupid and a way to get caught, if stopped.

and embarrassingly enough, I forget my cell phone all the time because I take it out and then forget and then leave and then remember, but probably most people don't suffer from forgotthephoneagainitis.

re the plates, the cameras I must contend with have ability to take front and back, coming and going. smile I'm on candid camera. That LE doesn't have a plate indicates to me - JMO - that the car is seen on ring or possibly the neighbor's back door camera but no plate angle. again, everything here is JMO & imagination.

 

[samanthadaniels1995]

Further on the heavy FBI involvement, the perp should be nervous about this and FBI expertise. The phrase "don't know what you don't know" comes to mind. Moo.

I wonder if a satellite image may have captured activity. Has anyone any knowledge of the use of satellite images in crime investigation and the probability of coverage around the University ?

 

[FlamingoLady]

I can get behind every point except your last one. I'm not sure that telegraphing, to the POI, that LE was onto them would do anything other than make the POI go to ground. My feeling is that someone who planned and brought this crime about has no intention of giving themselves up, and that this would be a working assumption on the part of LE.

I feel like it would be more likely, if LE thought the occupant(s) were involved, they would keep knowledge of this vehicle to themselves and use it to help confirm the identity of a POI whom LE had other evidence pointing to.

Yep that makes a lot of sense. But, imo, this car may be the only piece of evidence they have (until forensics/DNA all come back) and they are hoping said driver/occupant will come forward. They don't even have a plate, probably don't know how many occupants etc....But I see what you're saying. If the poi had help (driver) this appeal would put pressure on the poi and driver/accomplice.

 

[Dysfunkshun]

Idaho cops spark fears quadruple murderer could strike again

Moscow Police told visitors to the city to keep in touch with their friends and family and stay vigilant during the celebration on Saturday.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Really?
Poor people. I don’t know how much fun will be had...

 

[samanthadaniels1995]

jmo one thought about the stolen car being reported - potentially, the person could be incapacitated (lives alone, remote location, left dead, etc.) or doesn't know it's missing yet (long-term vacation, traveling for work, etc.)

The killer could have been hiding the car away, too. Ted Bundy did that. It could have been long-time stolen, repainted, although that would be pretty stupid and a way to get caught, if stopped.

and embarrassingly enough, I forget my cell phone all the time because I take it out and then forget and then leave and then remember, but probably most people don't suffer from forgotthephoneagainitis.

re the plates, the cameras I must contend with have ability to take front and back, coming and going. smile I'm on candid camera. That LE doesn't have a plate indicates to me - JMO - that the car is seen on ring or possibly the neighbor's back door camera but no plate angle. again, everything here is JMO & imagination.

At 3 AM, I believe the plates could be covered without risk of being pulled over.

 

[Strong1]

I am kind of curious about what peoples thoughts are regarding the murder, or murders in this case.

1. Do you believe they are local and are still in the area? (Considering college students as locals)
2. Local but no longer in the area?
3. Transient (Passing thru)?
4. From out of town and came to Moscow for this specific purpose?

 

[L.laricina]

Here is a link to the type of knife that is referenced on the media thread (pp 1-3, I believe). There are other brands besides Ka-Bar, but apparently Ka-Bar's hilt has a specific shape to it and is also fairly thick/heavy, so often leaves impressions as a bruise.

They come in various sizes, apparently, but all have a hilt. Since the information about the knife came out even before the autopsy was done, I figure that the investigating officers, EMT's and detectives all immediately recognized the general type of knife (hilt, single blade, etc).

Maybe one of our WS knife experts will weigh in again.

I thought, early on, that there was significance in the fact that LE specifically named the brand and I still believe this. Ka-Bar, even though they make other knives, is kind of like what Xerox is to photocopiers. People usually envision the GI blade used for years by the US military. To me the most significant features of this blade are the guard and the fact that it is has a full tang which allows for quite a bit of force to be applied without danger of separating blade from handle. One can punch this through a car door. The tip may break, but the blade itself will not.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

At 3 AM, I believe the plates could be covered without risk of being pulled over.

potentially. but if I were planning a quadruple murder, I'd plan to have a stolen plate and a 'borrowed' car. jmo and not planning to become a homicidal maniac but just saying. of course, I wouldn't have driven there to begin with, so there's that, too.

like at an airport or stored in a garage and they do not know it isn't there anymore.

let's hope for that because both would have cameras and monitoring imo

 

[10ofRods]

If the car is at the bottom of a quarry reservoir, that shouldn't matter. Both it and the owner should have been identified by now with all of the technology and resources available and being implemented, to include crowdsourcing.

To your second sentence, a judge would certainly sign a search/confiscate warrant immediately if they had the car in sights, no matter the protests of any bystanding owner..

My opinion.

Even without a VIN or a license plate? How does that look? How does LE figure it out?

Obviously, we're in the middle of your last option (crowd-sourcing). So far, nothing? Or did they get something and are mum? That seems irresponsible for LE, since Elantra owners everywhere are being stared at, mocked, or turned into tip lines. Clogging up tip lines is not good LE practice, so I don't think they've found it. Of course, they had an additional 1000 tips last time I checked (compared to two days ago).

What technology do you propose they use to find this car, exactly? 2011-2013 Elantras had no GPS, IIRC. If the plate was removed or obscured, what would they use?

We would be waiting for neighbors to remember or notice that someone has an Elantra (if it's not in a reservoir) or that someone had an Elantra and now doesn't. I, for one, have very little memory of all the various cars right around me. I'd notice if the three nearest neighbors no longer had one of their main cars, but two of them buy and sell cars as part of their overall way of making a living, so every few months, a new car is in someone's drive - I pay only attention to the ones they've had longterm.

Almost anyone can buy a camera-blocking screen for their license plate too - which is illegal many places, but there's little enforcement.

If the car did in fact drive past cameras elsewhere than on Taylor Rd/King/Queen Road, you'd think they'd tell us that as part of the request. If they have the license plate already, why are they asking us to find a car without that info? They're actually asking us to **remember** that car, but it has now shaded over into finding the car, as far as I can tell.

 

[debbiediablo]

There's one obvious unusual thing here -- the knife; and that makes it the signifier.

Solve the knife and solve the crime.

The knife will lead to motive... or motive will make the knife understandable. But IMO the knife is a very personal, intimate way to kill someone which might have a sexual component. Although there was no evidence of sexual assault, I do wonder if there was a sexual element to at least one of the killings that would not be categorized as an assault. Where is the line drawn, if there is a line. I would not expect this information to be released to the public, possibly only in testimony by the coroner and ME.

 

[British Bulldog]

Not to sure about the USA. But in Britain we have multiple cameras that detect all cars and number plates in many areas (due to evasion of road tax and not having an MOT) Perhaps the car that the LE are seeking is on camera ?

 

[Simply Southern]

I would also add that it could have been privately purchased for cash and not titled or registered in the new owner's name.

True, but FBI would go to the owner(previous) on file and work to find the buyer. All states require a title to obtain vehicle tags. Each time a vehicle is sold/transferred a new title is issued by the state division of motor vehicle before tags can be purchased.

So....the vehicle could be stolen, purchased for cash but never retitled, what is known as a scrapped vehicle, altered dealer/ state/ stolen tags.

LE has exhausted all national resources, interviews, beat the brushes and is now crowdsourcing looking for "the person/s in the vehicle.

I've sold many used vehicles to private individuals. I always go to the Division of Motor Vehicles with the buyer to transfer the title. In my state you can "sign over the title", by completing a small section on the back of the title. This is not a guarantee the new owner will transfer the title. They could use stolen or tags, another vehicle, have an accident and I might be on the hook for damages, if the title was not transferred. It also relieves the property tax burden. I want to insure my name is off the title, the tags are cancelled and no further obligation for the vehicle.

All my humble opinion

 

[samanthadaniels1995]

If you are the right type of person, you can google "forensic knife wound patterns" or similar (or go to scholar.google.com). Regular google has more pictures, of course.

Someone posted a forensic picture here, early on (of a wound inflicted by a specific size Ka-Bar knife, in which the hilt bruise was clearly visible). Naturally, not every single use of a knife is going to leave crisp forensic evidence, but I do believe it's very easy to know the length of the knife and whether it had a hilt, as well as (usually) the approximate size and shape of the hilt. That's why LE went looking for Ka-Bar or Ka-Bar style knives in the first days after the murder (to at least two different stores - it's on the media thread).

Bruising is not uncommon in a stabbing - not having bruising would be unusual, especially with a hilted knife. The point is, that's the very type of thing forensics people use to figure out what knife was used (and LE act as if they have clues on this).

Further, the existence of bruises next to the knife wound says a lot about the force used.

I'm reluctant to post any articles or pictures here, but you can easily find them with various search terms. "Stab Wound Analysis" should turn up an excellent page with the list of things a coroner is supposed to measure about a wound - and it talks about the impression of the hilt on the skin, which along with other things, can often narrow the knife type down to just a few. It's quite a long list of evidence, actually, just from one knife wound.

I've always assumed that since LE went, within just a few days, to local stores inquiring about a particular knife, that the hilt bruises and taper analysis of the wounds gave them a good idea what knife it was.

People have hobbies in knife making. A knife making or smith completion is on tv network programs. The program style like chef completions

 

[TravellingCat]

There is a national titled vechile data base. MOO, LE can sort vehicle type, within a range-state/miles/year/color " and produce vehicle owners quickly.

The vehicle they are looking for is more than likely stolen. I would think the FBI has already researched/investigated all local/student owned from exsisting data bases. They more than likely have a list of all stolen/date/location. In the US everything is tracked and by multiple private and government agencies.

National Motor Vehicle Title Information System (NMVTIS) | Overview

The National Motor Vehicle Title Information System (NMVTIS) was created under the Anti Car Theft Act of 1992.

bja.ojp.gov

The National Motor Vehicle Title Information System (NMVTIS) was created under the Anti Car Theft Act of 1992. In 1996, the Anti Car Theft Act was reauthorized and amended, transferring the responsibility for NMVTIS from the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) to the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ). NMVTIS is designed to prevent various types of automobile theft and fraud by providing an electronic means for verifying and exchanging title, brand, theft, and other data among state motor vehicle titling agencies, law enforcement officials, consumers, and other authorized users of the System. Where implemented, NMVTIS has already produced results, including time and cost savings, reductions in consumer wait time, improved recovery rate of stolen vehicles, increased ability to identify cloned vehicles prior to title issuance, and improved investigative abilities.

Yes, I mentioned the titling database in my post, however not all states even report to it yet, and don't have to report the make/model or color. There are limitations to how it can be used based on what information they already have and where the car was registered. Which was the point of my post.

 

[samanthadaniels1995]

I am kind of curious about what peoples thoughts are regarding the murder, or murders in this case.

1. Do you believe they are local and are still in the area? (Considering college students as locals)
2. Local but no longer in the area?
3. Transient (Passing thru)?
4. From out of town and came to Moscow for this specific purpose?

Not in the area.

 

[debbiediablo]

In the timeframe between 2:30-3:00 AM KG attempted to call J six times. Then M called him three times, and just minutes before 3:00 K tried one final time. This info was released by KG's family; they were able to determine activity on K's phone from checking online for their usage. But how did they know what happened with M's phone? Do we know?

 

[human]

just for reference: National Crime Information Center (NCIC) - FBI Information Systems

canada is specifically mentioned.

There is also interesting information in here about Idaho:

Federal Register :: Request Access

and the link for NMVTIS which I think is also the same as above.

National Motor Vehicle Title Information System (NMVTIS) | Overview

The National Motor Vehicle Title Information System (NMVTIS) was created under the Anti Car Theft Act of 1992.

bja.ojp.gov

A warrant will be needed to search an individual's vehicle data - specific to place to be searched and things too be searched for by LE - but if the car is being driven, then some exceptions to the warrant requirement will prevail (imp to check appropriate state law, however, because it does vary). My hope is that the killer is toodling around an area with lots of cameras like the ones where I live and LE spots and stops. My fear is that the killer ditched that ride asap in a pre-planned location and drove away unseen.

Do you feel this is true when dealerships can get all,of your info and can share it with others?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/12/17/what-does-your-car-know-about-you-we-hacked-chevy-find-out/