ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 28

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I still can't understand this fascination with figuring out who was targeted.

Again, examine BTK's first attack. The young girl was clearly treated differently from the rest of the family - hung in the basement, underwear removed, killer left... "a deposit" in front of her body. If the investigators had primarily gone off searching for potential stalkers, contacts and aquaintances of the young girl, they would have never learned that the mother was Dennis Rader's coworker (which they didn't until he confessed some 31 years later).

This is a fool's errand.

ETA:
JMHO
 
I've seen a lot lately about a lack of reward and how that somehow is negatively impacting the investigation. From what I have seen in past cases, rewards typically help in cases that have faded from the public light and/or gone cold. This is the most publicized murder case in America right now with daily MSM coverage and internet sleuth sites exploding. Reminds me of ones like Delphi, Mollie Tibbetts, etc.

You offer a reward to keep the case fresh in the public's eye and to 'shake the trees' to generate new tips and leads. The Moscow PD has already moved the tip call center to the FBI because they couldn't handle the volume. A reward would likely increase the quantity of tips but not necessarily the quality. Right now, people are coming forward because they believe it's the right thing to do, not because someone might pay them.

Offering a reward would likely cause those motivated by money to come forward and it even might cause an increase in weak/fake/unsubstantiated tips that could drag down the investigation because all of those have to be vetted, filed and researched. You may also get people reporting online 'rumors' in the hopes one of them happens to be right and they can then try to claim a piece of any reward offered.

I still firmly believe you offer a reward when the case has started to go cold and tips are slowing. This is a very active investigation right now with - per LE - information pouring in so let that play out first.
 
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Observe_dont_Absorb said:
I agree. Stealth is the defining word for this crime and a confident knife handler.

That's why I believe the perpetrator will also be very physically fit and have a lot of experience of hunting with knives and is someone with some form of physical skills such as Parkour or ballet dancing or acrobatics or martial arts. Light on their feet and very confident with their body skills, quick reactions, and very used to handling knives to kill things.
Click to expand...

Agree, especially about the word "stealth." I think this perp planned this for at least a while. The campus was about to empty out for finals week and holiday break. Things were winding down. Perp wanted a quiet middle-of-the-night scenario, with few people out and about. Therefore, weapon of choice would certain be something quiet - and yes, something quite familiar to the perp, something with which he practiced.

There is a place in Moscow to practice with axes, ninja stars and knives. That place is a 9 minute walk from the Corner Club (just for reference). IOW, it's on the edge of downtown. Most small towns do not have such a facility. Heck, my entire county doesn't have this kind of facility.

I'm just saying that the local area would have many people familiar with sharp-edged weaponry, including the ability to publicly display one's confidence and to build confidence in one's abilities.
 
BeginnerSleuther said:
Sorry if I missed this, but do we know that the attic didn't have a built-in ladder? Mine does.
Click to expand...
Working in Real Estate, I have come across MANY attic accesses with builtin ladders (pull-down stairs). Although they make exist, I have never come across one that easily and quietly pulled down or back up. And pulling one up after climbing up into the attic would be extremely difficult. I don’t see the attic as being a likely hiding spot.
 
WildWest said:
"big open gouges" sheds light on X's comment on bruised and torn :(
Click to expand...

Good catch - in that article, it's all the victims who have gouge wounds (not so much stab wounds). It also explains why SG said they didn't suffer.

The article also has SG state that K's wounds were specific (and both are on that internet how-to guide, on how to kill someone with a knife - they are numbers 4 and 5 on the previously posted list).

Here's the news article so people don't have to scroll:

www.foxnews.com

Idaho murders: Father of slain victim says she had 'big open wounds,' calls police 'cowards'

Slain Idaho college student Kaylee Goncalves' father exclusively told Fox News Digital that the victims had "big open gouges" that were made by a "sadistic male."
www.foxnews.com www.foxnews.com

SG does emphasize, once again, that K and M had very different kinds of wounds - but I don't know if we can conclude much, forensically, unless we know how, exactly, they are different.
 
I have assumed that E and X would be likely to keep the bedroom door locked at night, for fairly obvious reasons. There is the report from X's mom that X's father did some type of work with a lock a week or two beforehand. IF my assumption is correct, how could E and X be attacked while sleeping as has been reported?

I suspect the sequence of events cannot be accurately deduced by the information made available to the public. Important details have been left out or misrepresented for investigational purposes.

With the rise in interest in true crime websites and podcasts, it seems that LE releases much less public information than before. I have followed a few cases lately, where there hasn't been much actual evidence on which to base a rational hypothesis.
 
layer said:
Thank you for this post!
I don't know how I missed that extensive interview from very early on. It's hard to watch, so much pain. But actually there are answers to some questions I have had for a long time, like how and when M&K got to the Corner Club.
Any chance you made a full transcript of this?
Click to expand...
I actually did start one but never finished it. Will finish it later as there wasn't too much left to do.
 
Just a thought mulling over some things. It could be completely possible the girls on the 1st floor heard something other than a thump but out of an abundance of caution and the girls safety maybe that is not being disclosed.
 
WildWest said:
"big open gouges" sheds light on X's comment on bruised and torn :(

Edit, X's dad's comment
Click to expand...
Certainly plays into the theory that the crime was done to punish the victims. The brutality that has been described is just crazy. This was someone who wanted them to die painfully and brutally. The damage SG described to his daughter's liver and lungs makes me think even more this was a perp who was hacking away at her trying to inflict maximum damage vs. just say slitting her throat which would've been cleaner and quicker. The point of this was to - in the killers mind - 'punish' them.

Good call out by SG as well for surmising that MM/KG died in the same room because LE obscured the windows in MM's room but not KG's which would indicate that there was no evidence of a crime in KG's actual bedroom plus IIRC her bedding was packed up anyway because she was in the process of moving.
 
Tillicum said:
:(

www.foxnews.com

Idaho murders: Father of slain victim says she had 'big open wounds,' calls police 'cowards'

Slain Idaho college student Kaylee Goncalves' father exclusively told Fox News Digital that the victims had "big open gouges" that were made by a "sadistic male."
www.foxnews.com www.foxnews.com
Click to expand...
Lots more details in this article...

  • Goncalves said his daughter's injuries "definitely did not match" Mogen's wounds. "They may have individually died from the exact same thing, being stabbed, but there are more details," he added. "They're not even close to matching."

  • Coroner says, sir, I don't think stabs is the right word, it was like tears, like this was a strong weapon, not like a stab," he told Fox News Digital.

  • "She said these were big open gouges. She said it was quick. These weren't something where you were going to be able to call 911. They were not going to slowly bleed out," he said.

  • The knife slashed open Kaylee Goncalves' liver and lungs, he said.
SG paid for a copy of Ks death certificate which included some details about her injuries.
 
layer said:
I still can't understand this fascination with figuring out who was targeted.

Again, examine BTK's first attack. The young girl was clearly treated differently from the rest of the family - hung in the basement, underwear removed, killer left... "a deposit" in front of her body. If the investigators had primarily gone off searching for potential stalkers, contacts and aquaintances of the young girl, they would have never learned that the mother was Dennis Rader's coworker (which they didn't until he confessed some 31 years later).

This is a fool's errand.

ETA:
JMHO
Click to expand...

Agree in general. While obviously, LE is interested in this question and likely has theories, I don't think any of us have enough verified information to guess.

Although, I will add that it's not a fool's errand to check out every theoretical possibility. In many cases, knowing who was the main target (if there was one) can help solve it. In the Golden State Killer/EARONS case, there were many theories about which of his victims were targeted (if any) and perhaps stalked. Unfortunately, that's not what helped catch him - but I sure would like to know, still, if the theories were true. EARONS did have maps of neighborhoods, showing cul-de-sacs/dead ends, and abutting an escape route. But, I don't think he chose just by house shape/position, I think there was more.

Each case is different. It's important to know if any of the victims had stalkers/enemies/fraught relationships.
 
10ofRods said:
So, Entin spoke to Dad and that was his takeaway? I don't see an actual quote from SG, either.

Sigh. So far, we have no LE confirmation of such a fact (indeed, they walked back their idea that one person was targeted to "house was targeted"). It's troubling that News Nation/Entin do not provide a source for this "confirmed" fact. Very troubling to anyone who likes traditional journalism.

"More brutal" as assessed by a parent viewing two bodies is difficult to assess. In each pair of victims, I'd expect that one died first (and had fewer injuries, perhaps, than the other). Second person might get more injuries simply due to being second. A key factor would be which injuries were fatal (and when). If the perp had to reach across a bed (for example), then that could explain why one victim was not killed as instantaneously as the other. I keep in mind that one of the earliest things SG said was "they didn't suffer." I now wonder where he's getting all this - and I totally get *why* he's saying these things, as he desperately needs to understand what happened and is providing his own, much-deserved narrative. No shade on SG, just a simple reminder that SG is likely not the best source for Entin to be using for such broad statements.

SG has no way of comparing K and M's injuries to those of X and E, either.

And thanks, Mendicant and Layer, for providing that link. Apparently Entin's announcement has not been picked up by the local press or any other MSM outlets.
Click to expand...
Excellent summary. I feel terrible for the families and what they're going through, but I don't like their words and opinions being used as primary sources for reporting when there's no secondary sources.
 
ACG2x said:
I've seen a lot lately about a lack of reward and how that somehow is negatively impacting the investigation. From what I have seen in past cases, rewards typically help in cases that have faded from the public light and/or gone cold. This is the most publicized murder case in America right now with daily MSM coverage and internet sleuth sites exploding. Reminds me of ones like Delphi, Mollie Tibbetts, etc.

You offer a reward to keep the case fresh in the public's eye and to 'shake the trees' to generate new tips and leads. The Moscow PD has already moved the tip call center to the FBI because they couldn't handle the volume. A reward would likely increase the quantity of tips but not necessarily the quality. Right now, people are coming forward because they believe it's the right thing to do, not because someone might pay them.

Offering a reward would likely cause those motivated by money to come forward and it even might cause an increase in weak/fake/unsubstantiated tips that could drag down the investigation because all of those have to be vetted, filed and researched. You may also get people reporting online 'rumors' in the hopes one of them happens to be right and they can then try to claim a piece of any reward offered.

I still firmly believe you offer a reward when the case has started to go cold and tips are slowing. This is a very active investigation right now with - per LE - information pouring in so let that play out first.
Click to expand...
My metro area will often offer rewards very quickly in cases, but it tends to be for crimes committed in areas that may not historically be comfortable working with police. Don’t believe that’s an issue in this particular case, but another reason that rewards are sometimes used by law enforcement, and particularly why they may be issued earlier in an investigation, in my humble opinion.
 
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