ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 36

[KBlackRabbit]

More evidence of irresponsible sleuthing bringing death threats to the accused and lawsuits from the accused:

Idaho murders: University professor sues TikTok cyber-sleuth who accused her of campus killings

History professor Rebecca Scofield sent two cease-and-desist letters to TikTok personality Ashely Guillard, but Guillard continued to make videos accusing Scofield of murder.

www.foxnews.com

For better or for worse, I dont think lawsuits are likely to stop this type of behavior:

A. Sue'em attorneys know that suing those with little to lose not only does not pay, but as there is nothing to take, rarely changes the behavior of the target.

B. The Second Amendment is mighty and broadly interpreted. Slander against public persons requires that the defendant know that "X" is false (states of mind are almost impossible to prove).

Slander against private persons like the professor does not have that requirement. Even still, citizens can constitutionally voice their opinion about anything and anybody- and "opinion" is broadly defined.

Thus, " "X" did "C!" could be slander. But.... the equally irresponsible "My review of evidence "A" and "B" leads me to conclude that "X" did "C" could be protected because it is based on a stated personal opinion.

In short what is needed are not lawsuits, but more personal responsibility regarding one's free speech. Getting off my soap box..... .

I 100% support this lawsuit.

The defendant in this lawsuit stated, not as opinion but as fact - with ZERO evidence - that the plaintiff is guilty of mass murder and serious professional misconduct. The defendant has done this in dozens of videos that are getting hundreds of thousands of views. The plaintiff is not a public figure, has no connection to the Idaho murders, and is being stalked and harassed and feels threatened because of this. Cardi B, who is a public figure, won her defamation case against someone who falsely stated she committed far less serious behavior.

IMO someone who crosses the line this far deserves to get sued, whether they have the money to pay damages or not.

Idaho is a per se state.

Also, the second amendment is the right to bear arms, not free speech.

 

[NuttMegg]

Please read The Rules (linked in my signature), and continue discussion here.

Also, for anyone other than victims or an officially named POI/suspect, use initials or your post will be removed.

No sleuthing or insinuations/accusations against anyone who is not officially named a POI/suspect by LE.

 

[MountainDad]

Brett Payne as Lead Investigator on Case.
@MountainDad
Directing you to a partial response in my post @Nila Aella to a few min [edit 20 min] ago and, and ack'ing Payne may not have been the ideal choice in a perfect world.

But still questioning whether a permanent fed task force to handle homicides nationwide is the best or even feasible approach.
How would it be logical for FBI to automatically assume
control of homicide investigations in NYC, Dallas, LA, St. Louis, Chicago, Detroit, NOLA, San Francisco, Philadelphia, Indianapolis, Baltimore, Kansas City, Houston, etc. IDK.

But I'm glad the MPD has FBI's assistance in many facets of this investigation. And hoping for an arrest soon.

There has to be a better way to get justice for victims, and punish offenders that murder. I am not sure the feasibility or logistics of such a task Force, and don't want to go off topic.

I will say a quadruple murder investigation of four college age individuals is not the time to be learning on the job.

Other professions (pilots/doctors/lawyers) must work their up to the highest levels through training, experience, and hours logged- I'm am mystified at a rookie being Lead Investigator on a quadruple murder investigation.

Open Cases: Why One-Third Of Murders In America Go Unresolved

Police today are identifying fewer murder suspects than they did a generation ago. One criminologist says that may be because departments are more focused on preventing crimes than on making arrests.

www.npr.org

 

[al66pine]

Did HE say (currently) He Still Anticipated Marriage?

I don’t understand why he would think, per the article, that they would get married. She broke up with him and was moving to Texas.

@fridaybaker
At this link,* I did not see the exBF (JdC) being quoted, coulda missed it. Just saw his aunt BM quoted.

In context of 5-6 yr relationship, w "break"/breakup a few months ago, I can understand relative saying WTTE: We all thought they were getting married. Meaning, we thought so for swveral yrs, UNTIL this break/breakup.
She may have even cont'ed thinking that AFTER break/breakup, as the couple had broken up & reconciled before, iirc.

Some fam members get v enthusiastic about the younger gen. getting married.

Who knows what JdC actually thought re possibility in future? Not me.

_________________________________
* Ex-boyfriend of Idaho murder victim heartbroken as 'half of America' thinks he did it

 

[mrtnira]

There has to be a better way to get justice for victims, and punish offenders that murder. I am not sure the feasibility or logistics of such a task Force, and don't want to go off topic.

I will say a quadruple murder investigation of four college age individuals is not the time to be learning on the job.

Other professions (pilots/doctors/lawyers) must work their up to the highest levels through training, experience, and hours logged- I'm am mystified at a rookie being Lead Investigator on a quadruple murder investigation.

Open Cases: Why One-Third Of Murders In America Go Unresolved

Police today are identifying fewer murder suspects than they did a generation ago. One criminologist says that may be because departments are more focused on preventing crimes than on making arrests.

www.npr.org

I suspect that the policeman's two years on the job may not qualify him directly to run a complex murder investigation like this, but we don't know what other training and experience he actually has. Being prior military service says something, but not all experience is universally qualifying. Perhaps his former military occupational specialty and experience allow him to run teams and direct operations rather fluidly? If that is true, and if he's in a coordination position running teams of more experienced and better resourced people, then that would work.

 

[scruffydog]

Did HE say (currently) He Still Anticipated Marriage?
@fridaybaker
At this link,* I did not see the exBF (JdC) being quoted, coulda missed it. Just saw his aunt BM quoted.

In context of 5-6 yr relationship, w "break"/breakup a few months ago, I can understand relative saying WTTE: We all thought they were getting married. Meaning, we thought so for swveral yrs, UNTIL this break/breakup.
She may have even cont'ed thinking that AFTER break/breakup, as the couple had broken up & reconciled before, iirc.

Some fam members get v enthusiastic about the younger gen. getting married.

Who knows what JdC actually thought re possibility in future? Not me.

_________________________________
* Ex-boyfriend of Idaho murder victim heartbroken as 'half of America' thinks he did it

I don't get the feeling at all that he is the killer. I think there is a connection with the frat house.

 

[Sunny Texas]

It looks like a typo maybe. The title came up for me with 10 weeks, but the caption below the video says 6 weeks prior to the murders.
The article begins with “ Ten weeks…”

Someone may have confused the time since the crime as nearing 6 weeks with the time between Sept 1 and Nov 13- 10 weeks?

JMO

They were called to the house for 2 separate incidents prior to the crime. One of those was due to 2 separate RP calling in a noise complaints on Sept. 1, so there were technically 3 calls (2 for the same event).

 

[csa29]

I don’t think i’ve ever called someone nonstop after 1am. Though i’ve done texting when i was bored and trying to get attention lol

(re the phone calls)

 

[Strong1]

I don’t think i’ve ever called someone nonstop after 1am. Though i’ve done texting when i was bored and trying to get attention lol

(re the phone calls)

Hmmmmm I can't say the same. Drunk dialing is a terrible thing

 

[TooMuchGun]

I don’t think i’ve ever called someone nonstop after 1am. Though i’ve done texting when i was bored and trying to get attention lol

(re the phone calls)

jack may have hit the "fu" button so she knew he was awake so she kept callin him back.

 

[hopewell]

... men, all over the world, go right ahead and kill their wives, girlfriends and lovers even though it's well known that the intimate partner will be a main suspect?

Rage. The kind of impulsive, spur-of-the-moment blackout rage that tends to leave copious amounts of evidence.

Why do you assume the killer thought things through in a rational manner, btw?

Because he committed the crime with an intention of getting away with it. And thus far he has done so.

My opinion.

 

[TIGER0822]

Praying for a Christmas arrest. The families will never be the same, but it will bring them some small measure of relief.MOO LE have their eyes firmly on a couple of potential POI. MOO they went back into the house to look for more DNA. They are waiting to make their move.

 

[10ofRods]

In my opinion, this was not a break up or a case where one of the victims tried to leave an abusive boyfriend. There is no evidence pointing to either of those scenarios.

Whoever did this was probably not capable of maintaining a relationship in the first place. This could be someone who fantasized a relationship with one of the women and then retaliated when reality smacked fantasy in the face and she rejected him unequivocally.

To me it seems like revenge for some kind of narcissistic injury. Perhaps one of the girls laughed at an awkward male who approached her that night. It wouldn't have had to be someone who had interacted with any of the victims over a long period of time.

“Narcissists suffer from what the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders defines as narcissistic injury:

‘... vulnerability in self-esteem which makes narcissistic people very sensitive to ‘injury’ from criticism or defeat. Although they may not show it outwardly, criticism may haunt these individuals and may leave them feeling humiliated, degraded, hollow and empty. They react with disdain, rage, or defiant counterattack.’”

Source: The Destructive Force of Narcissistic Injury

<modsnip>There are many cases where everyone (parents, neighbors) say, "We NEVER would have thought he would do this!" While there's sometimes a covert pattern of abuse (uncovered by talking to the deceased wive's friends and therapists), there are MANY times when there's no prior evidence of spousal abuse.

Look up Patrick Frazee.

As a psychiatric anthropologist, my job is in fact to assist in field diagnosis (using DSM). Narcissistic injury (in the context of severe narcissism) is one motive for murder (but rare-ish).

People often think they are in relationships when they are not. I've seen completely estranged couples (in crime cases and in other research contexts) where neither person was able to notice that their relationship was exceptionally distant.

At any rate, it's impossible to discuss all the possible diagnoses of all these men who kill their departing wives or girlfriends. I know that strangulation is a common method, but nearly every other method in the world has been used. Sometimes the men are the ones leaving, as well, but when a woman decides to leave a man (we'll call him "controlling" rather than narcissistic and then I'll list the OTHER diagnoses and personality disorders that are associated clinically with this kind of crime).


Manic-Depression
Depression
Schizophrenia
Anxiety
Antisocial PD
Borderline PD
Dependent PD (rare, but occurs)
Histrionic PD (rare, but occurs)
Mixed PD (IOW, sociopath)
Cluster B (possessing 2 or more Cluster B diagnoses - can be narcissism)


And of course, lots of murders of women are committed by men with no formal diagnosis and who integrate themselves well into communities, professions and extended family. They include doctors, lawyers, judges, politicians, professors and every other job occupation category, rich or poor.

But across all of these categories (and more), the event trigger of a wife finally deciding to leave is statistically associated with domestic violence, some of it homicide. It's often part of a cycle of domestic violence, for sure, which is often scrupulously hidden by the couple in question.

What's striking is when it occurs and the husband/boyfriend has no criminal record and is considered quite the peaceful person. Women obviously murder for the same reasons, but it's far less common (and actually more associated with a prior mental health diagnosis - but then, women may seek treatment for anxiety and depression more readily.

If there's any good news for women, in this set of facts, it's that we are far less likely to be murdered than men. But when we are murdered.

Page 3 of this summarizes the findings - which are international:

https://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/statistics/crime/UN_BriefFem_251121.pdf

 

[Jawds78]

I suspect that the policeman's two years on the job may not qualify him directly to run a complex murder investigation like this, but we don't know what other training and experience he actually has. Being prior military service says something, but not all experience is universally qualifying. Perhaps his former military occupational specialty and experience allow him to run teams and direct operations rather fluidly? If that is true, and if he's in a coordination position running teams of more experienced and better resourced people, then that would work.

I agree imo. With so many working on this case, I even feel weird saying it's all on him. I'd imagine they have a team like mentality, just certain people having different tasks to a put together the big picture. MOO

 

[mrtnira]

I agree imo. With so many working on this case, I even feel weird saying it's all on him. I'd imagine they have a team like mentality, just certain people having different tasks to a put together the big picture. MOO

Yes, you captured the concept. Task organization. It is common with military operations.

 

[eloquence]

I don’t think i’ve ever called someone nonstop after 1am. Though i’ve done texting when i was bored and trying to get attention lol

(re the phone calls)

I can't find the article, but believe KG's family said she did this frequently and would shamelessly call someone until she reached them, so not out of the norm for her. I also would definitely not call someone more than once or twice though!

 

[gliving]

I don’t think i’ve ever called someone nonstop after 1am. Though i’ve done texting when i was bored and trying to get attention lol

(re the phone calls)

Yep, one reason I might call instead of texting is if I thought my texts weren't secure.

 

[10ofRods]

Rage. The kind of impulsive, spur-of-the-moment blackout rage that tends to leave copious amounts of evidence.

Because he committed the crime with an intention of getting away with it. And thus far he has done so.

My opinion.

It can be. It can also be a longterm simmering pattern of thought. Many wife-murderers are pretty good at disposing of evidence. See the Suzanne Morphew story. I feel as if we're seeing more of those (there's one in my area right now).

I should have said "ordinary rational mind." Most of us do not kill anyone. Thinking you're going to get away with a heinous crime does not constitute ordinary rationality to me (or even rationality). I guess I could further qualify this by saying that "rational self-interest" is a real thing, most people possess. People who murder may believe it's in their rational self-interest at the moment, but for a lot of them, I'm not so sure.

Many women are stalked by their former spouses or boyfriends; many have time to get a court order against them. Some men spend quite a bit of time carefully planning and evading being caught. I see "rage" as an uncontrollable expression of the limbic system - it's not always present. But if we want to be circular, yes, we can say that anyone who kills their spouse or intimate partner is in a rage, by definition (in which case it loses all explanatory value and we have to ask, why are some people so prone to this rage and others not?)

In some cultures, it's almost an expected, automatic response. I know of a case where a man unsuccessfully attempted to strangle his wife and when asked why he did it, he said, "It was just time to do it." He has a diagnosis of schizophrenia. Wife had taken steps to acquire a separate place to live (with the kids, wasn't cheating). As is common with schizophrenic killings, he had flat affect. No rage.

I'm trying very hard to look at all the possibilities, but the statistical probability of intimate partner violence means it's on the table. This would include all partners of all victims, including partners who only assumed they were in an intimate relationship (HPD, rare in men, but it occurs; sometimes other PD's).

Perceived closeness is an interesting diagnostic box to tick. I was stalked twice in my life, both times by someone who thought they were way closer to me than they actually were. I didn't even know their names. One was a student (who was also stalking another professor - and that student did not, to my knowledge, ever kill anyone). The other is a much longer story. Every New Year for the past 20 years, I'd check to see if my stalker was still around and where she was living. Last year, I found that she was deceased and, well, I felt guilty about being so glad, but at the same time, it was such an ordeal.

 

[HMSHood]

At this point, it maybe a work of a serial killer or not.

Regardless, I think the killer(s) is likely an injustice collector or grudge hoarder as they have deep seated anger issues. The way the victims were killed suggest the killer(s) is an injustice collector.

 

[al66pine]

There has to be a better way to get justice for victims, and punish offenders that murder. I am not sure the feasibility or logistics of such a task Force, and don't want to go off topic.

I will say a quadruple murder investigation of four college age individuals is not the time to be learning on the job.

Other professions (pilots/doctors/lawyers) must work their up to the highest levels through training, experience, and hours logged- I'm am mystified at a rookie being Lead Investigator on a quadruple murder investigation.

Open Cases: Why One-Third Of Murders In America Go Unresolved

Police today are identifying fewer murder suspects than they did a generation ago. One criminologist says that may be because departments are more focused on preventing crimes than on making arrests.

www.npr.org

@MountainDad. Thx for your thoughtful response.

The Chief's designating an LEO in this situation as lead investigator dId not confer carte blanche to go cuckoo for cocoa puffs. The title is a formality, maybe nearly illusory in this circumstance.

Likely imo that Chief, lead investigator, and entire dept will show a great deal of deference to the more experienced IDSP & FBI, and they will be open to st. & fed. guidance. ICBW.

The MPD Chief requested ID. StPol. & FBI assistance promptly and got it. Still getting it.
imo jmo moo