ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #14

[ILOKAL]

Thanks for the interesting link. So Idaho has very lax laws on hunting mountain lions, and people from neighbouring States even travel to Idaho to hunt the lions if it's not allowed in their state. Idaho won't release the figures for how many mountain lions there are, becsuse they don't want to be criticised if the numbers are very low or falling due to excess hunting (according to the link). And -



If there is such a lot of mountain lion hunting in Idaho, won't the lions be likely to avoid humans? If people go camping with the intention of killing mountain lions, you would think that the lions would avoid campsites and stay well away from humans. That could explain why there is no record of mountain lions attacking humans in the area that DeOrr disappeared in, if the lions there are scared of humans.

A toddler wandering far away from the campsite and adults might be another matter though, if a mountain lion came across him.

Of course, mountainlion.org is not an objective site. Naturally, the organization assumes that because Idaho does not release information on its population of mountain lions it is because of the hunting laws Idaho has. Of course, that is not necessarily the case and is more than likely NOT the case. In Idaho, it's ALL about their prized Rocky Mountain Elk.

Mountain lions do not fear humans, and they certainly have not come to "fear" humans who hunt them in Idaho, as the majority (about 90%) of mountain lions hunted in Idaho are hunted with hounds. It is the hounds that chase them and corner them and ultimately tree them. Mountain lion hunting is very rigorous for the hunters and hounds. I doubt those teams "camp" at your everyday campgrounds. According to IDFG, the Salmon and Borah areas have recently had only minimal lion hunters due to the fact that it is so remote and overrun with previously dispersed wolves. Too many of the lion hounds have been killed by wolves. And although wolves seldom attack mountain lions, the packs are known to "steal" the lions' kills and then the lions must hunt again. So although the liberal hunting laws and extended seasons were put in place as a means of predation management, they have had little impact on those particular areas because hunting those areas has decreased considerably. IMO

 

[Little Ol Me]

From East Idaho News.com today:

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/10/kunz-family-if-you-see-deorr-please-ask-him-this-question/

I am so heartsick for this family.

I'm glad that Nate waited for about a week to share this. Helps to keep Deorr in the news.

I agree, very heartbreaking.

 

[ILOKAL]

Hmmmmmmmmmm, he was still there in the morning. Think it may be a taxidermy touristy ML. I thought it might be, so I searched for another pic.:thinking:​

The position of the cat appears different on each of those photos. I don't think it's a stuffed mountain lion. Besides, I would "think" National Geographic would check its authenticity before awarding the photo. JMO

 

[Rayemonde]

The sheriff didn't go hunting mountain lions with special dogs because there was no indication that a mountain lion was even in the area, let alone that one had anything to do with DeOrr's disappearance. And I'm sorry, but I don't think that "There is zero evidence that a mountain lion attacked DeOrr - therefore it *must* have been a mountain lion, because mountain lions don't leave evidence!" is a very convincing argument.

 

[neesaki]

From East Idaho News.com today:

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/10/kunz-family-if-you-see-deorr-please-ask-him-this-question/

I am so heartsick for this family.

I can't even begin to imagine :cry: I still think, and very much hope, that there's a possibility someone has him and that he will be found safe and come home to his family. What an awesome miracle that would be.

 

[neesaki]

The sheriff didn't go hunting mountain lions with special dogs because there was no indication that a mountain lion was even in the area, let alone that one had anything to do with DeOrr's disappearance. And I'm sorry, but I don't think that "There is zero evidence that a mountain lion attacked DeOrr - therefore it *must* have been a mountain lion, because mountain lions don't leave evidence!" is a very convincing argument.

I think that the mountain lion theory has been proposed as a real possibility because there's no evidence of anything and, mountain lions truly are stealthy and silent predators often leaving no evidence. And perhaps more importantly, the location and environment that Deorr went missing in is unarguably a habitat for these wild predators, making it a theory that's impossible to ignore or dismiss, IMO.
That being said, it is only one of several possibilities. Maybe it's a long shot, but I'm personally still praying he was taken by someone who is actually taking care of him, and that he will be found soon, alive and safe. Miracles sometimes do happen. JMO

 

[Mickshawn]

I can't even begin to imagine :cry: I still think, and very much hope, that there's a possibility someone has him and that he will be found safe and come home to his family. What an awesome miracle that would be.

I so agree with you and hope for this miracle, as well.

 

[Onebest]

Maybe Onebest will see this and chime in with his wealth of knowledge. There have been incidences of mountain lion attacks where the person survived and the mountain lion couldn't be seen when LE arrived or was seen and then disappeared. So, in order to catch the lion to either move it to a new location (this is seldom done) or to euthanize it, they bring in special cougar dogs (wild animal tracking dogs) to track and locate the animal. It seems as though SAR people tracking dogs are not what is used to track mountain lions. I wonder why these speciality dogs weren't used to see if they could track a mountain lion that might have taken DeOrr?

Interesting idea actually. I am not sure though, it's not my area. But perhaps looking at it from the search management stand point there was nothing specific to lead LE in that direction. No foot prints, no clothing, no blood although we have read that might not be seen. Nothing specific that would prompt the Sheriff to call in ML tracking hounds other then another theory albeit a good one, nothing solid for then to go after. I would guess cost is sometimes a factor but if SB had something solid to go on I think he would have found a way. Could it still be done? We could ask the ML hound running teams their search criteria.JMO

 

[ILOKAL]

Interesting idea actually. I am not sure though, it's not my area. But perhaps looking at it from the search management stand point there was nothing specific to lead LE in that direction. No foot prints, no clothing, no blood although we have read that might not be seen. Nothing specific that would prompt the Sheriff to call in ML tracking hounds other then another theory albeit a good one, nothing solid for then to go after. I would guess cost is sometimes a factor but if SB had something solid to go on I think he would have found a way. Could it still be done? We could ask the ML hound running teams their search criteria.JMO

EDA: From what I understand, after the Cubs reach the age of about three months, they and the mother make their home in several places within the female's home range, so then that home range actually becomes their "home" vs just one location within that home range. They and the mother move among these "homes" that their mother has selected. Until the age of about six months, the mother hunts and brings the kill to the Cubs. After that (approximate) age, the Cubs accompany the mother to the kill. As the Cubs get older, the mother will often leave them alone for several days at one kill while she leaves in search of the next meal. The older the Cubs, the farther away the mother hunts, generally within her territory.

Thanks so much Onebest. I don't know if at this late date finding "the" hypothetical mountain lion would be possible unless it was a resident lion. Even then, they tend to roam a lot within their own home territory. And if it was a transient lion, no telling where it would be at this late date. The one lion that perhaps "could" still be located might be a female with Cubs that is still residing in the same place. A lot, of course, would depend on the age of the Cubs. If they were born in the spring they might be six months old now. Although I know at that age they would still be with their mother, I'll try to find out if it is likely the family would all still be in the same place. One question would be IF little DeOrr WAS taken by a lion, would that lion scent still be on him and his articles of clothing? If yes, then it might be a good idea for SB to bring in some lion tracking dog teams.

Sorry, but I don't know why the added paragraph shows up before the original paragraph. I hope it doesn't confuse anyone.

 

[giagreen]

EDA: From what I understand, after the Cubs reach the age of about three months, they and the mother make their home in several places within the female's home range, so then that home range actually becomes their "home" vs just one location within that home range. They and the mother move among these "homes" that their mother has selected. Until the age of about six months, the mother hunts and brings the kill to the Cubs. After that (approximate) age, the Cubs accompany the mother to the kill. As the Cubs get older, the mother will often leave them alone for several days at one kill while she leaves in search of the next meal. The older the Cubs, the farther away the mother hunts, generally within her territory.

Thanks so much Onebest. I don't know if at this late date finding "the" hypothetical mountain lion would be possible unless it was a resident lion. Even then, they tend to roam a lot within their own home territory. And if it was a transient lion, no telling where it would be at this late date. The one lion that perhaps "could" still be located might be a female with Cubs that is still residing in the same place. A lot, of course, would depend on the age of the Cubs. If they were born in the spring they might be six months old now. Although I know at that age they would still be with their mother, I'll try to find out if it is likely the family would all still be in the same place. One question would be IF little DeOrr WAS taken by a lion, would that lion scent still be on him and his articles of clothing? If yes, then it might be a good idea for SB to bring in some lion tracking dog teams.

Sorry, but I don't know why the added paragraph shows up before the original paragraph. I hope it doesn't confuse anyone.

I think they should bring in the dogs either way. And they need to search out side that 2 mile area. I really think he or his things are out there some where its just going to be a matter of a backpacker or hunter being in the right place at the right time.

 

[ILOKAL]

I think they should bring in the dogs either way. And they need to search out side that 2 mile area. I really think he or his things are out there some where its just going to be a matter of a backpacker or hunter being in the right place at the right time.

i agree. Hikers tune into nature and the environment and may very well locate something. Hunters are used to keeping their eyes on the ground in search of signs that will lead them to that trophy. Keen eyes looking in the right place may eventually turn up some clues.

 

[ReadySet]

How could a 2-year-old vanish
without a trace?
Published today Idaho State Journal

DeOrr’s father thought the boy’s great-grandfather was watching him. The great-grandfather thought the boy’s dad was watching him.
It was during this 7- to 10-minute time period when nobody was watching him that DeOrr apparently disappeared.
Once they realized the 2-year-old was missing, Clegg said the family frantically searched the surrounding area for about an hour before dialing 911.

In an interview last week, Clegg said the reason it took an hour to call 911 was because the entire family was feverishly searching the area for the missing boy. She also criticized people who have made up lies that DeOrr’s great-grandfather, who other family members thought was watching the boy, was unfit to supervise young children.

But Clegg said the family strongly believes DeOrr was abducted from the campsite, and the theory that a wild animal took him just doesn’t hold up.
“The cadaver dogs did not find any trail of blood, and there was no evidence he was physically attacked in any way,” Clegg said. “Someone had to pick him up and take him away.”

Clegg also said that there were multiple ways for a possible abductor to escape from the campsite, particularly if the suspect was on a 4-wheeler or off-road vehicle.
“There were at least a dozen ways to get out of the area,” she said.


http://www.idahostatejournal.com/ne...cle_10d44717-75dc-5601-aa30-5726228128f8.html

 

[ReadySet]

I keep trying to post and it keeps throwing me out, :gaah: so I'm going to try replying to my own post:

Here's one of my questions this article brings up: Grandma says it took an hour to call 911. Is this what our understanding has been? Does that mean the family thought he had been missing since around 1:36? Or that they discovered he was missing at 1:36?

How could a 2-year-old vanish
without a trace?
Published today Idaho State Journal

DeOrr’s father thought the boy’s great-grandfather was watching him. The great-grandfather thought the boy’s dad was watching him.
It was during this 7- to 10-minute time period when nobody was watching him that DeOrr apparently disappeared.
Once they realized the 2-year-old was missing, Clegg said the family frantically searched the surrounding area for about an hour before dialing 911.

In an interview last week, Clegg said the reason it took an hour to call 911 was because the entire family was feverishly searching the area for the missing boy. She also criticized people who have made up lies that DeOrr’s great-grandfather, who other family members thought was watching the boy, was unfit to supervise young children.

But Clegg said the family strongly believes DeOrr was abducted from the campsite, and the theory that a wild animal took him just doesn’t hold up.
“The cadaver dogs did not find any trail of blood, and there was no evidence he was physically attacked in any way,” Clegg said. “Someone had to pick him up and take him away.”

Clegg also said that there were multiple ways for a possible abductor to escape from the campsite, particularly if the suspect was on a 4-wheeler or off-road vehicle.
“There were at least a dozen ways to get out of the area,” she said.


http://www.idahostatejournal.com/ne...cle_10d44717-75dc-5601-aa30-5726228128f8.html

 

[Lilibet]

If DeOrr was as much of a Mama's boy as described, I can't imagine he stayed with great grandpa while Mom went out of sight. Once he realized she was gone he'd be running after her as fast as his little legs would carry him, even if he went in the wrong direction. What happened to him at that point is anyone's guess. Kids can move faster and further than we give them credit for. JMO

And according to Clegg, he was a big mama’s boy.
“You could sit him in his room, and he would be content as long as his mommy was nearby,” Clegg said. “Even at my house, if his mom had to go to the store, it was very tough for him.”

BBM

http://www.idahostatejournal.com/ne...cle_10d44717-75dc-5601-aa30-5726228128f8.html

 

[Sillybilly]

The position of the cat appears different on each of those photos. I don't think it's a stuffed mountain lion. Besides, I would "think" National Geographic would check its authenticity before awarding the photo. JMO

Here's another pic with snow on the ground, so I'm pretty sure it's a stuffy:

http://www.keloland.com/_images/data/239x179/36466.jpg

 

[Rayemonde]

Clegg said the family has had to issue a cease-and-desist order to some online posters in attempt to stop them from posting comments about the case...

Neither of DeOrr’s parents would respond to the Journal’s request for an interview regarding the case...

The Sheriff’s Office also refused last week to comment to the Journal on whether DeOrr’s parents were being considered as suspects in the case.

http://www.idahostatejournal.com/ne...cle_10d44717-75dc-5601-aa30-5726228128f8.html

 

[Rayemonde]

I keep trying to post and it keeps throwing me out, :gaah: so I'm going to try replying to my own post:

Here's one of my questions this article brings up: Grandma says it took an hour to call 911. Is this what our understanding has been? Does that mean the family thought he had been missing since around 1:36? Or that they discovered he was missing at 1:36?

It says they searched for about an hour before calling 911. It also says that no-one was watching DeOrr for 7 - 10 minutes. That's a big difference from 4 minutes IMO - a lot more could happen to DeOrr in 10 minutes than in 4 minutes. For instance, it makes it more likely an animal could attack him and carry him away, and get a good head start out ofthe area before anyone started looking for DeOrr. It also makes it more likely that a stranger could lure him away and be gone by the time the parents returned. Especially if GGP did step into the camper, or fall asleep or whatever.

 

[katydid23]

http://www.idahostatejournal.com/ne...cle_10d44717-75dc-5601-aa30-5726228128f8.html

Since setting up the national hotline, Vilt has received numerous tips from across the region regarding this mysterious man in the black Rubicon. Some of the leads have turned out to be false, but others appear to be promising. However, Vilt is still waiting for a lead to come in with the Rubicon’s license plate number.

Though Vilt said he isn’t working with Kunz’s family anymore, he still follows up on the leads he receives through the hotline regarding the case. He said the belief that little DeOrr is still alive is what keeps the family and investigators going.

But with a lack of evidence and solid leads, Vilt admits this case is odd.

“This is one of the weirdest cases I’ve ever worked on, and that’s in a span of 40 years in law enforcement,” Vilt said.

 

[Rayemonde]

Is it significant that the sheriff's office refused to comment on whether the parents are suspects or not? In the past, hasn't Bowerman always been quick to say that they are *not* suspects? Has something changed, I wonder.

 

[Mickshawn]

I think they should bring in the dogs either way. And they need to search out side that 2 mile area. I really think he or his things are out there some where its just going to be a matter of a backpacker or hunter being in the right place at the right time.

Do we "know" what radius from the campsite they actually HAVE searched?