ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #14

[Rayemonde]

It's the 4 month anniversary since DeOrr went missing. I thought there might be a new statement from the family, or a vigil or something.

Thinking of you, DeOrr. :candle:

 

[pepelepolecat]

<modsnip>

There was definite proof of the child in California's identity. He was not DeOrr. That's probably all I can say about that, but there were a few news articles at the time that explained more or less how LE knew exactly who he was.

 

[Yvettea]

There was definite proof of the child in California's identity. He was not DeOrr. That's probably all I can say about that, but there were a few news articles at the time that explained more or less how LE knew exactly who he was.

Could you provide a link or maybe I can find it by Googling.

 

[pepelepolecat]

Could you provide a link or maybe I can find it by Googling.

I can't find the exact link I want, but I did find these:

<modsnip>

http://590kid.com/2015/09/16/toddler-found-in-california-not-deorr-kunz-jr/

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/09/lemhi-sheriff-the-child-in-this-viral-post-is-not-deorr-kunz/


I will continue looking for it, though!

 

[Yvettea]

Well I'm not going to blame him either but there seems to be a lack of motivation, urgency or maybe seriousness that he's displayed in interviews. He might not be too effective in a search and GGP couldn't help him because of his COPD.

I did not say this to blame IR more of an observation really. Obviously I have no idea if he assisted in the search or not. I wouldn't put responsibility on him for his performance in searching. He was there as GGP's friend and may have stayed with GGP during the early part of the search. And if he left what of it if he was free to go. Some people have anxiety issues that would leave them unable to deal with this type of emergency. And it could be something completely different or maybe there's nothing wrong at all. Because this is all simply my opinion but it's not meant to put down IR.

 

[haven71]

I did not say this to blame IR more of an observation really. Obviously I have no idea if he assisted in the search or not. I wouldn't put responsibility on him for his performance in searching. He was there as GGP's friend and may have stayed with GGP during the early part of the search. And if he left what of it if he was free to go. Some people have anxiety issues that would leave them unable to deal with this type of emergency. And it could be something completely different or maybe there's nothing wrong at all. Because this is all simply my opinion but it's not meant to put down IR.

I didn't take it as putting down IR.

But what do you mean you "wouldn't put responsibility on him for his performance in searching?"

I wouldn't think ANYONE would NEED to put responsibility on someone to help search, especially a person who was in their camping group. It's been suggested that perhaps IR is developmentally delayed or otherwise incapable of contributing to the investigation. I guess it's possible, but I admit it IS hard for me to believe that in a group of 4, unless their are medical reasons, the LEAST they can do is help search. The only thing, really.

 

[Rayemonde]

I didn't take it as putting down IR.

But what do you mean you "wouldn't put responsibility on him for his performance in searching?"

I wouldn't think ANYONE would NEED to put responsibility on someone to help search, especially a person who was in their camping group. It's been suggested that perhaps IR is developmentally delayed or otherwise incapable of contributing to the investigation. I guess it's possible, but I admit it IS hard for me to believe that in a group of 4, unless their are medical reasons, the LEAST they can do is help search. The only thing, really.

We don't know that he didn't help search. Plus he may not have been allowed to help search, like the parents. I know that they got some criticism on SM for not helping to search, but it turned out that LE wouldn't let them search. IR probably wasn't allowed to search either, IMO.

Or maybe he could just imagine that if he went off searching, later people would accuse him of sneaking off to move a body. Maybe he realised that as the only non-relative on the trip, fingers might be pointed at him later so he thought he'd stay in view where no one could accuse him of anything.

 

[haven71]

We don't know that he didn't help search. Plus he may not have been allowed to help search, like the parents. I know that they got some criticism on SM for not helping to search, but it turned out that LE wouldn't let them search. IR probably wasn't allowed to search either, IMO.

Or maybe he could just imagine that if he went off searching, later people would accuse him of sneaking off to move a body. Maybe he realised that as the only non-relative on the trip, fingers might be pointed at him later so he thought he'd stay in view where no one could accuse him of anything.

True!

 

[ILOKAL]

We don't know that he didn't help search. Plus he may not have been allowed to help search, like the parents. I know that they got some criticism on SM for not helping to search, but it turned out that LE wouldn't let them search. IR probably wasn't allowed to search either, IMO.

Or maybe he could just imagine that if he went off searching, later people would accuse him of sneaking off to move a body. Maybe he realised that as the only non-relative on the trip, fingers might be pointed at him later so he thought he'd stay in view where no one could accuse him of anything.

I don't disagree with what you have said, but do you think IR or anyone else that early in the search would have even thought to consider that a body might be hidden? I don't think I would have made that leap, at that time.

 

[Hatfield]

Glad to see interest still in this case.

Sad that no results as to what happened though.

The one thing that has always bothered me is not getting enough details. It was all very murky and confusing. LE did not have good reasons to keep things close to the vest. It was not one of those types of cases where you have to hide info. Quite the opposite in fact. You are supposed to tell the public everything so we can help find the boy when he went missing.
I don't blame LE too much because I think they did not know the details as much as they would have liked. I think it was murky to them too.

BEFORE HE WENT MISSING
-specifics on what exact vehicles arrived at campsite
-who drove in what vehicles
-exactly what day and time vehicles arrived
-who slept where

AFTER HE WENT MISSING
-After searchers started coming then exactly what day and time vehicles left to go home for whatever reason
-if someone of the group did go home then did they ever come back and if they did what vehicles and who came back to help search again

We were able to assume some things but it should have been provided in some of the reports and it never really was provided clearly that information. Having specifics like that is important to help understand what happened and it was all so confusing.

 

[Hatfield]

I was watching a crime show the other day and they said in some of the tougher cases how they solve it is by elimination. I think this case may be the type of case where eliminating what could not have happened may help.

JMO
I think these things can be eliminated and I know some of us would not agree so its just an opinion. For the investigators they would have similar issue of some agreeing and some not as they try to eliminate possibles. That is where concensus of the group is important. So a vote would be taken on what things can be eliminated to narrow down the possibles.

IMO below are what can be eliminated so far:

1-Animal taking him.
This is the toughest one to eliminate for me.
I used to think Cougar was a definite possible but have finally decided this can be eliminated because of a few main reasons. The main reason is all the searching did not turn up any evidence of an animal taking him. I would have thought something of the boys would have been found if animal took him. Like a shoe or piece of clothing or something.
The lack of any evidence at all tells me I have to eliminate animal taking him.
So putting this one in eliminate category.
If something turns up this may change. But for now it stays in this category for me.

2-Total Stranger taking him.
For many of the same reasons as the number 1 I just don't see how a total stranger could take him. No solid evidence so far to suggest that. If any evidence turns up to the contrary then this could change.
I know there were some reports of stranger vehicles but not sure about those reports.

This may not help too much because there are still many other possibles but at least by narrowing down the possibles it would give LE some help. Their list is going to be different I am sure.

 

[ILOKAL]

I was watching a crime show the other day and they said in some of the tougher cases how they solve it is by elimination. I think this case may be the type of case where eliminating what could not have happened may help.

JMO
I think these things can be eliminated and I know some of us would not agree so its just an opinion. For the investigators they would have similar issue of some agreeing and some not as they try to eliminate possibles. That is where concensus of the group is important. So a vote would be taken on what things can be eliminated to narrow down the possibles.

IMO below are what can be eliminated so far:

1-Animal taking him.
This is the toughest one to eliminate for me.
I used to think Cougar was a definite possible but have finally decided this can be eliminated because of a few main reasons. The main reason is all the searching did not turn up any evidence of an animal taking him. I would have thought something of the boys would have been found if animal took him. Like a shoe or piece of clothing or something.
The lack of any evidence at all tells me I have to eliminate animal taking him.
So putting this one in eliminate category.
If something turns up this may change. But for now it stays in this category for me.

2-Total Stranger taking him.
For many of the same reasons as the number 1 I just don't see how a total stranger could take him. No solid evidence so far to suggest that. If any evidence turns up to the contrary then this could change.
I know there were some reports of stranger vehicles but not sure about those reports.

This may not help too much because there are still many other possibles but at least by narrowing down the possibles it would give LE some help. Their list is going to be different I am sure.

Although everyone here is entitled to their opinions, and with all due respect, it helps to validate them by using factual information upon which to base those opinions. In the case of a cougar having stalked and grabbed him without being seen and then no evidence of such an attack being "found" (which does not equal no evidence being left behind), one need only look at prior nearly identical cases of victims vanishing (while camping, hiking, biking, or merely playing outside), to realize that such a conclusion is not valid, IMO (based on a plethora of sites that have been posted since this forum began).

 

[Rayemonde]

There are plenty of stranger abductions that leave no evidence, too... It's especially likely if Ggp is confused enough that he wouldn't remember seeing a car come up to the campsite. Creepy stranger drives up to go camping or fishing or whatever, happens to see unattended little boy wandering around, grabs him and drives off. Maybe Ggp was in the camper van at the time. A crime of opportunity, like the William Tyrrell case is thought to have been by LE.

The problem is, there is so little real evidence and so many conflicting stories in this case that it's too easy to cherry-pick facts that suit your own pet theory and discount any facts that don't fit in with it as inaccurate. Like Vilt being convinced it was an abduction, or the people who are convinced it was foul play on behalf of one or more of the campers. I don't think we've seen enough evidence in this case to be sure of anything, that's why I'm still firmly on the fence. :fence:

 

[Rayemonde]

I don't remember seeing these pictures of the area during the last search posted here.





This is the Creek:


http://www.rexburgstandardjournal.c...cle_dd9143ce-7cf7-11e5-a2be-b732585d12e4.html

 

[giagreen]

I'm so bummed he hasn't been found yet.

 

[ReadySet]

Thanks for posting those, I don't remember seeing some of those either.
I wonder where the area is where the searcher is walking in the rock field. Is it on the opposite side of the campground from the creek?
ETA: Look how steep the creek bank is. I sure would like to know where that is--is that the side toward the camp site or the opposite side? Is that part of the creek next to the camp site or farther up or down stream? Is that what all of the creek bank is like, or is it generally steeper or not as steep?

I don't remember seeing these pictures of the area during the last search posted here.

This is the Creek:

http://www.rexburgstandardjournal.c...cle_dd9143ce-7cf7-11e5-a2be-b732585d12e4.html

 

[ChasingMoxie]

This is the Creek:
View attachment 84264

http://www.rexburgstandardjournal.c...cle_dd9143ce-7cf7-11e5-a2be-b732585d12e4.html

This picture of the creek makes me even more confused about fishing than I already was.

 

[Arnie M]

.

Remember me saying there would be hidden caverns under the large rocks where a small body could get trapped .

This picture has a perfect example , and there will be more of them in the creek .

Thanks for the pictures.


.

 

[Lilibet]

.

Remember me saying there would be hidden caverns under the large rocks where a small body could get trapped .

This picture has a perfect example , and there will be more of them in the creek .

Thanks for the pictures.

That area you marked caught my eye too. I also wondered if there could be areas of earth or rocks that might suddenly collapse and swallow him up.

This is happened in a sand dune, which was a very unusual occurrence.

As for natural cavities, dunes aren&#8217;t supposed to have any. Unlike hard rock, which can dissolve to form caverns and sinkholes, dunes are just big piles of sand formed as wind stacks one grain atop the next.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/mystery-why-dangerous-sand-dune-swallowed-boy-180953404/

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/08/140814-sand-dunes-holes-decomposing-tree-science/

 

[Rayemonde]

This picture of the creek makes me even more confused about fishing than I already was.

Good point. But I think that when DeOrr went missing it was ankle to calf deep. Remember the picture of the divers standing in it.

.

Remember me saying there would be hidden caverns under the large rocks where a small body could get trapped .

This picture has a perfect example , and there will be more of them in the creek .

Thanks for the pictures.


.

That *is* the Creek. The Sheriff said they cleared debris and moved rocks when they did the original search.