ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #15

[neesaki]

This is a little OT, but I was watching Beth Holloway's Vanished the other day about five year old Alie Berelez who disappeared back in 1993. She was sadly found deceased, but what is so amazing is that the tracking dog, Yogi, followed her scent for fourteen miles through neighborhood and city streets and an interstate before he had to stop due to exhaustion. I just thought this was a good example of how invaluable these dogs can be in a search. I do wonder what went wrong with the search for little Deorr that there was no success with the dogs, it seems it would have been easier in the wilderness with less distraction and scent interference.

 

[ReadySet]

This is a little OT, but I was watching Beth Holloway's Vanished the other day about five year old Alie Berelez who disappeared back in 1993. She was sadly found deceased, but what is so amazing is that the tracking dog, Yogi, followed her scent for fourteen miles through neighborhood and city streets and an interstate before he had to stop due to exhaustion. I just thought this was a good example of how invaluable these dogs can be in a search. I do wonder what went wrong with the search for little Deorr that there was no success with the dogs, it seems it would have been easier in the wilderness with less distraction and scent interference.

I agree, it's a puzzle why the dogs weren't successful. One possible answer could be if little Deorr was not actually in the search vicinity at the time the dogs were searching. Whether or not that is the case, I don't know.

 

[neesaki]

I had meant to post this link to the Unsolved Mysteries site about the search for Alie Berrelez, in case anyone is interested. So here it is.

http://unsolved.com/archives/alie-berrelez

 

[Dee10]

I agree, it's a puzzle why the dogs weren't successful. One possible answer could be if little Deorr was not actually in the search vicinity at the time the dogs were searching. Whether or not that is the case, I don't know.

You got me thinking, DeOrr arrived the night before at dusk. We don't know when he got up or how much exploring he did away from the immediate area before the trip to the store. After arriving back from the 20-30-40 min. (?) ride it was almost nap time or maybe he had his nap on the way back? Dad said almost(?) nap time in the video. We don't know how much roaming he was into at that point with G'Grandpa when the parents went exploring and fishing. The dogs still should have tracked him if he left the immediate area but they didn't. I believe the blanket will play a key part of the mystery. JHMO.

 

[Lilibet]

As great as SAR or cadaver dogs are, I can think of at least three cases offhand where dogs lost the scent quickly for a variety of reasons. To me it doesn't mean much that they couldn't track DeOrr. JMO

 

[catswhiskers]

I agree, it's a puzzle why the dogs weren't successful. One possible answer could be if little Deorr was not actually in the search vicinity at the time the dogs were searching. Whether or not that is the case, I don't know.

I've always been confused about the kind of dogs which were used immediately after Deorr disappeared. I mean it's my understanding that dogs are trained in a specific field. The news that dogs were put off by the scent of the cremains puzzled me, as that would indicate that those dogs were cadaver dogs - and they only respond to the smell of death. These would be different to the dogs who were reportedly unable to pick up a trace of Deorr beyond the immediate campsite - they'd have to be tracking dogs surely. Add to the mix the fact that we later found out that the sheriff had brought his own dogs in to search - very confusing!

 

[Aunt_Tulip]

I was never clear on if they were "his own" as in his personal dogs, or "his own" as in sheriff department dogs.

 

[Arnie M]

.

We have covered the tracking dogs endlessly and I dont want to start again , but here are some important considerations

--- when tracking dogs are successful were hear all about it
--- we seldom hear about the failures but there are plenty
--- ask a handler to list all his successes and he sure will
--- ask him to list all the failures and he starts mumbling and changes the subject

Where people go wrong is by assuming the dog KNOWS what he is to track .... letting him sniff a 1000 aromas from a baby blanket and he can detect them all .... but how do you tell him which one of the 1000 to follow ???

How many people touched the blanket .... how much food spilled on it , how many places has it been since the last wash .... how would a dog specifically know to follow the scent of camouflage cowboy boots on a dusty road .... it is not as easy as you think


Pursuit of a running criminal and the dog will not miss a beat ... guys who run from stolen cars etc , those are ideal conditions . Somewhere in the world will be dogs who Could have tracked DeOrr , but none of them were there that day.

 

[catswhiskers]

I understand what you are saying Arnie M. The whole fuss that was made about the cremains interfering with the dogs has always bothered me, as I've always imagined the dogs used initially were tracking dogs, not cadaver dogs. Poor folks scattering their loved one's remains in what was probably a favourite fishing or camping spot were being discussed with suspicion all over the place.
I don't recall details about which item of Deorr's specifically was used with the dogs, but you're right about the blanket if that was it - all sorts of other scents would be on that.

 

[neesaki]

.

We have covered the tracking dogs endlessly and I dont want to start again , but here are some important considerations

--- when tracking dogs are successful were hear all about it
--- we seldom hear about the failures but there are plenty
--- ask a handler to list all his successes and he sure will
--- ask him to list all the failures and he starts mumbling and changes the subject

Where people go wrong is by assuming the dog KNOWS what he is to track .... letting him sniff a 1000 aromas from a baby blanket and he can detect them all .... but how do you tell him which one of the 1000 to follow ???

How many people touched the blanket .... how much food spilled on it , how many places has it been since the last wash .... how would a dog specifically know to follow the scent of camouflage cowboy boots on a dusty road .... it is not as easy as you think


Pursuit of a running criminal and the dog will not miss a beat ... guys who run from stolen cars etc , those are ideal conditions . Somewhere in the world will be dogs who Could have tracked DeOrr , but none of them were there that day.

Good points, the scent article they provide to the dog has to have a good, clean scent of the person they want them to track without other scents to interfere. Yes, too bad that a "Yogi" couldn't have been there that day.

 

[Yvettea]

When great-grandfather lost track of DeOrr he must have scanned the horizon when he looked up. He thought he saw DeOrr's parents in his line of sight but could he actually have seen Isaac? And DeOrr going down where Isaac was fishing.

 

[Arnie M]

I understand what you are saying Arnie M. The whole fuss that was made about the cremains interfering with the dogs has always bothered me, as I've always imagined the dogs used initially were tracking dogs, not cadaver dogs. Poor folks scattering their loved one's remains in what was probably a favourite fishing or camping spot were being discussed with suspicion all over the place.
I don't recall details about which item of Deorr's specifically was used with the dogs, but you're right about the blanket if that was it - all sorts of other scents would be on that.

Agreed .... and those reports about cremains throwing off the dogs is complete bulsitt in my opinion. Cremains are sterile ashes of inert bone fragments that smell like ashes , they do not smell like a decaying cadaver , nor do they smell like a live person , complete red herring bull ... had nothing to do with failure of the dogs.

Furthermore the sheriff said it was HIS dogs that were used at first , and he said they were tracking dogs (for tracking missing people) .... when his dogs did not find anything he came up with the bull excuse about blaming the cremation ashes being spread that day ... that would not make a hoot of difference unless he had a dog specifically trained to track sterile crematorium ashes .... and he did not .... probably no such dog exists in the world ..... besides there were ashes all over the place , it was a campsite with several fire pits around.

In the later days and weeks up to 18 different dogs were brought in , but by then the whole place had been over run by hundreds of searchers and I think it rained too..

I think from the very start , if a proven dog had been brought in , was allowed to reference some of DeOrrs pants and shoes , it could have track his direction of travel .... but it would take hours and hours to get one there , and the searchers would have to stay away .... and that would not be the thing to do .... searchers were expecting to find him nearby before sundown , so send in everyone you can. I think the Sheriff did the right thing right away , including using his own tracking dogs , but if the dogs could not track , that alone is not unusual , it is social media that then began to say DeOrr was not even there , or was carried away by a stranger or something.

 

[gliving]

http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/16/search-deorr-lemhi-no-trace/30262877/

July 17, 2015

"Searchers in Lemhi County haven't found a trace of the little boy, despite days of intense efforts by search dogs, divers, and other experts familiar with these types of disappearances."

"Also on scene, more tracking dogs were brought in to help expand the search below the original campsite where the boy went missing.

And still helping in the search, a consultant from the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children based in Virginia.

"He's an advisor and a very good one," said Penner. "He's helped us coordinate some things and he got these two dogs that we have right now for us."

Crews are going to continue to search the reservoir until they feel they've covered every angle."

More at link

 

[Mountaingazer]

Agreed .... and those reports about cremains throwing off the dogs is complete bulsitt in my opinion. Cremains are sterile ashes of inert bone fragments that smell like ashes , they do not smell like a decaying cadaver , nor do they smell like a live person , complete red herring bull ... had nothing to do with failure of the dogs.

Furthermore the sheriff said it was HIS dogs that were used at first , and he said they were tracking dogs (for tracking missing people) .... when his dogs did not find anything he came up with the bull excuse about blaming the cremation ashes being spread that day ... that would not make a hoot of difference unless he had a dog specifically trained to track sterile crematorium ashes .... and he did not .... probably no such dog exists in the world ..... besides there were ashes all over the place , it was a campsite with several fire pits around.

In the later days and weeks up to 18 different dogs were brought in , but by then the whole place had been over run by hundreds of searchers and I think it rained too..

I think from the very start , if a proven dog had been brought in , was allowed to reference some of DeOrrs pants and shoes , it could have track his direction of travel .... but it would take hours and hours to get one there , and the searchers would have to stay away .... and that would not be the thing to do .... searchers were expecting to find him nearby before sundown , so send in everyone you can. I think the Sheriff did the right thing right away , including using his own tracking dogs , but if the dogs could not track , that alone is not unusual , it is social media that then began to say DeOrr was not even there , or was carried away by a stranger or something.

I agree the whole cremains screwing with the dogs scent trail is BS. I have done a lot of reading and even asked one of my tenants who is a Vermont state police officer and part of their specialized search and recovery team. He was very skeptical that cremains would interfere in any way, so he asked a few different dog handlers for the VSP and they all agreed that a very good, elite cadaver dog might be able to pick up on the scent in a very sterile environment with few scent distractions, but it's still highly unlikely. They said a dog being able to pick up on it out in the wilderness, even the best dogs out there, is extremely unlikely and they were all skeptical as well.

As for the dogs being the sheriff's dogs, I think when he said that, he meant "his dogs" as in the department's dogs. He wasn't even out there for the first few days, I thought?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[Rayemonde]

I also initially thought that cadaver dogs would not be distracted by scattered cremains, but then someone posted links showing that they do alert at cremains, and that cremains may even be used during the training of cadaver dogs.

 

[Rayemonde]

I guess it just depends on the training of the individual dog:
https://books.google.com/books?id=_...jAB#v=onepage&q=cadaver dogs cremains&f=false

 

[kammiemc]

Agreed .... and those reports about cremains throwing off the dogs is complete bulsitt in my opinion. Cremains are sterile ashes of inert bone fragments that smell like ashes , they do not smell like a decaying cadaver , nor do they smell like a live person , complete red herring bull ... had nothing to do with failure of the dogs.

Furthermore the sheriff said it was HIS dogs that were used at first , and he said they were tracking dogs (for tracking missing people) .... when his dogs did not find anything he came up with the bull excuse about blaming the cremation ashes being spread that day ... that would not make a hoot of difference unless he had a dog specifically trained to track sterile crematorium ashes .... and he did not .... probably no such dog exists in the world ..... besides there were ashes all over the place , it was a campsite with several fire pits around.

In the later days and weeks up to 18 different dogs were brought in , but by then the whole place had been over run by hundreds of searchers and I think it rained too..

I think from the very start , if a proven dog had been brought in , was allowed to reference some of DeOrrs pants and shoes , it could have track his direction of travel .... but it would take hours and hours to get one there , and the searchers would have to stay away .... and that would not be the thing to do .... searchers were expecting to find him nearby before sundown , so send in everyone you can. I think the Sheriff did the right thing right away , including using his own tracking dogs , but if the dogs could not track , that alone is not unusual , it is social media that then began to say DeOrr was not even there , or was carried away by a stranger or something.

It was the parents who said in their first interview that they believed DeOrr was abducted (carried away by a stranger) not an SM rumor.

The sheriff never used the "bs" excuse that the dogs couldn't track DeOrr's scent due to the cremains. The dogs he brought in the first day went to the rez to the campsite and back a couple times and the handler didn't know what to make of it. The cremains didn't come into play until a couple days after. He confirmed that someone had spread cremains and said that it threw off the dogs.

We don't know what scent item of DeOrr's was given to the dogs, do we? At least I don't.


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[ILOKAL]

I've always been confused about the kind of dogs which were used immediately after Deorr disappeared. I mean it's my understanding that dogs are trained in a specific field. The news that dogs were put off by the scent of the cremains puzzled me, as that would indicate that those dogs were cadaver dogs - and they only respond to the smell of death. These would be different to the dogs who were reportedly unable to pick up a trace of Deorr beyond the immediate campsite - they'd have to be tracking dogs surely. Add to the mix the fact that we later found out that the sheriff had brought his own dogs in to search - very confusing!

IIRC, one of the first two dogs brought in to search belonged to the sheriff, in some fashion. I don't recall who provided the other dog but I think it might have come from a neighboring county. The sheriff actually was perplexed that these two dogs didn't find DeOrr. IMO

 

[gliving]

http://www.hlntv.com/shows/nancy-grace/articles/2015/12/15/deorr-kunz-missing

Tue December 15, 2015

Short video from Nancy and Nate Eaton (East Idaho News)
Bring Deorr home for Christmas

Nothing new here, but good to see Nancy airing the case.

 

[desert-blue]

Interesting. More conflicting information, but I guess that's not surprising. Now, it's the reservoir they went to (instead of the creek) and they were gone 20 minutes (not 10 minutes/50 yards). The reservoir is 1/4 mile from the campsite, hardly what I'd call a few yards, or even 50 yards. Why on earth did NE say they only went a few yards? I'm glad she called him out on that - it's absurd to say that a child was abducted while the parents were six feet away.

ETA: Where does NE get his info? Has he listened to the interviews with the sheriff? Does he just make stuff up or did someone actually tell him that the parents went up to look at the reservoir? I find myself so frustrated with this case.