ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #17

[bessie]

I've always felt the third call was a dropped call. I believe it was klein who said it was 3 calls.

I believe one of his associates made this post. FWIW

Klein Investigations and Consulting There were three 911 calls which are public - 14:22, 14:26 and 14:28 hours on the 10th.
Like · Reply · 6 · January 11 at 4:25pm



https://www.facebook.com/KleinInvestigations/posts/937132659702652

 

[LietKynes]

In the unedited 911 call that JM made you can very clearly hear another 911 dispatcher take DeOrr sr 911 call and can be hard telling him they had JM on the other line. Seems to me DK 911 call lasted a whole minute-if that. So in a way it was released and if they released his side I doubt there would be much there to hear.

RSBM

Sooo... why did DKsr. leave JM and drive further to get a better signal if both of them were able to reach 911 dispatch right there ?
And was this already discussed in past threads ?

Did the rumor of a crying, messy toddler at the convenience store originate from an employee or from DKsr ?

Off-topic, but watching some of the videos about park disappearances by D. Paulides makes for some creepy listening. Makes a person not want to venture anywhere very far without at least one person with you !
IMO

 

[Aeronomy]

Wanting to bring it up that grandpa has been named in msm.

"These four people were the boy’s parents, his grandfather Robert Walton and family friend Isaac Reinwand." http://www.idahostatejournal.com/me...cle_156ed875-b71c-57e6-b472-eea0258a890e.html

 

[LietKynes]

About the 911 calls, Klein said he was in possession of DK's call. I can't see why Klein would be granted access to it but no one else could. He's not LE so... maybe no one else has asked for it and made it public?

SABBM

One would assume only LE to have this recording in their possession. That's interesting.
Did you have a link ?
Sorry if there was a link mentioned in an earlier thread... I may have just missed it.
Thanks again to everyone who is contributing to this thread ; lots of insightful posts !

Can't help but think the unreleased 911 call is the proverbial 'smoking gun'. Maybe it's too wildly speculating, though.
MOO

 

[carbuff]

I can think of a whole bunch of accidental ways a child could die on a camping trip in that location:

drown in the creek
fall down that ledge to the creek and crack his head open
carbon monoxide poisoning from defective stove, or in the vehicle
run over by vehicle
strangled in tent rope or something along those lines
left in vehicle in the sun
fell down a hole such as an unmarked mine shaft, animal hole, etc.
ate a poisonous plant
choked on his candy bar

But what I can't figure out in any of those cases is why they would have covered up the accident and hid the event rather than trying to get help. The timeline is so tight that covering up must have been the first reaction. And that just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[renarde]

SABBM

One would assume only LE to have this recording in their possession. That's interesting.
Did you have a link ?
Sorry if there was a link mentioned in an earlier thread... I may have just missed it.
Thanks again to everyone who is contributing to this thread ; lots of insightful posts !

Can't help but think the unreleased 911 call is the proverbial 'smoking gun'. Maybe it's too wildly speculating, though.
MOO

It's somewhere in Klein's Q and A session on the KIC Facebook, January 11th... I will try and find it.

 

[ILOKAL]

1. Please explain the post about the polys...first one being inconclusive and second being a fail.

2. What do you think is the cause of IR's "diminished capacity"?

It is my understanding that when polygraphs come back inconsistent, the test is then administered again. Polygraphs that had previously come back inconsistent come back a pass or fail on subsequent tests. Of course, this is just the general rule since polygraphs are not scientific.

It does not appear that IR has any type of diminished capacity that would interfere with the results of a properly administered polygraph. His initial inconclusive polygraph should have caused a re-test (I believe all POI's were tested more than once) and any subsequent re-test should have resulted in a clear pass or fail. IMO

 

[giagreen]

O/T From a frew pages back over on the other thread it was brought up that JM lost custody of her other children but had visitation.

I just wanted to point out that a parent just doesn't lose custody and still get visitation. If a parent loses custody that means ALL rights to their child including visitations and it is up to who has custody who gets to see their child...when....where...and why.

If JM still had visitations or weekends then that most likley means she lost placement of her children and not custody. And imo there is a big difference. She still has 50/50 rights then. But has to pay child support and have them weekends.

It takes a lot and we all know it from cases we read here for a mother to actually lose custody of her child.
However, all it'd take to lose actual placement is something as little as her letting her kids go live with their father for a few months and him not wamting to rehome them after just getting settled in. If she actually truly lost custody I'm sure we all would of seen a child abuse/neglect charges or felony drug charhes of some type by now.

Of course laws could be different in Idaho then they are here and I'm not exactly up on my Idaho child custody laws but I think they are pretty basic and standered in most states.

 

[giagreen]

I believe one of his associates made this post. FWIW

Klein Investigations and Consulting There were three 911 calls which are public - 14:22, 14:26 and 14:28 hours on the 10th.
Like · Reply · 6 · January 11 at 4:25pm



https://www.facebook.com/KleinInvestigations/posts/937132659702652

Yea your right it wasnt exacly from Klein. Caroline? Seems like she does a lot of the press issues for Klein.

 

[ClaireNC]

RSBM

Sooo... why did DKsr. leave JM and drive further to get a better signal if both of them were able to reach 911 dispatch right there ?
And was this already discussed in past threads ?

Did the rumor of a crying, messy toddler at the convenience store originate from an employee or from DKsr ?

Off-topic, but watching some of the videos about park disappearances by D. Paulides makes for some creepy listening. Makes a person not want to venture anywhere very far without at least one person with you !
IMO

It is very likely that JM's phone just had better reception than DK's. My husband and I have the same phones and the same service, but his reception is better than mine for some reason. DK drove about 1/2 mile out of the campground, which is kind in a bowl with ridges on three sides. It is a reasonable thing to do to get better reception when you are in the mountains.

The parents mentioned the rumor about the crying toddler in their long interview with EIN. We don't know where it originated or if they made it up.

The Missing 411 and D. Paulides have been discussed a lot in earlier threads.

 

[ClaireNC]

O/T From a frew pages back over on the other thread it was brought up that JM lost custody of her other children but had visitation.

I just wanted to point out that a parent just doesn't lose custody and still get visitation. If a parent loses custody that means ALL rights to their child including visitations and it is up to who has custody who gets to see their child...when....where...and why.

If JM still had visitations or weekends then that most likley means she lost placement of her children and not custody. And imo there is a big difference. She still has 50/50 rights then. But has to pay child support and have them weekends.

It takes a lot and we all know it from cases we read here for a mother to actually lose custody of her child.
However, all it'd take to lose actual placement is something as little as her letting her kids go live with their father for a few months and him not wamting to rehome them after just getting settled in. If she actually truly lost custody I'm sure we all would of seen a child abuse/neglect charges or felony drug charhes of some type by now.

Of course laws could be different in Idaho then they are here and I'm not exactly up on my Idaho child custody laws but I think they are pretty basic and standered in most states.

Great post, Giagreen! I think you are right about it being lost placement rather than custody. It is my understanding that her and her ex husband decided it would be best for the children to live with him. I don't think she fought it.

 

[renarde]

On the KIC Facebook page, January 11th Q and A, a poster DG asks about DK's 911 call. Klein or his associate replies that they are in possession of it but will not release it.

Last time I copied and pasted from the Q and A (with the link, about the color of little DeOrr's tee shirt), my post was deleted so I'm not sure if I can do that again...

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

It is my understanding that when polygraphs come back inconsistent, the test is then administered again. Polygraphs that had previously come back inconsistent come back a pass or fail on subsequent tests. Of course, this is just the general rule since polygraphs are not scientific.

It does not appear that IR has any type of diminished capacity that would interfere with the results of a properly administered polygraph. His initial inconclusive polygraph should have caused a re-test (I believe all POI's were tested more than once) and any subsequent re-test should have resulted in a clear pass or fail. IMO

Thanks for clarifying

 

[Elle*Bee]

At the end of thread 16, there was discussion about the validity and admissibility of polygraphs in general. This is anecdotal, but here it goes: *many* years ago when I was in high school, we had career week where we had various groups, agencies come in. One day, it was law enforcement. One of the activities was to administer a polygraph to two students (who were selected by teachers, but more on that in a bit) at the afternoon assembly.

I was selected and met with the detective #1 in the morning. He asked me basic questions and then told me to lie about two details (my middle name and my age) and be truthful about the rest. When it came time for my polygraph, neither the detective who asked the questions (detective #2) nor the one who interpreted the results (detective #3), knew I was instructed to lie. I did very well. One question was flagged as suspect (one I answered truthfully). My lies didn't register. I'm certain it's because I was coached in advance, instructed to lie to illustrate a point and that there were no consequences to my lies.

The other student met with detective #1 in the morning. She was also given the list of questions but was instructed to answer truthfully. Later in the afternoon, she did poorly on the polygraph. It turns out detective #1 asked the teacher to recommend a student she (the teacher) knew to be uncomfortable in front of large groups and who didn't like public speaking. Nerves and anxiety undoubtedly were undoubtedly factors in her poor performance. Before feeling too badly for her, she was indicted to participate in order to extra credit points in her class. She was a good sport about it.

(Side note: no need for a polygraph for me. I have NO poker face.)

Now, I know this was an overly simplified experiment and the science and technology has changed significantly in the past few decades. Polygraphs can be useful *tools* and perhaps provide a direction in the investigation, but they're not infallible.

 

[bessie]

On the KIC Facebook page, January 11th Q and A, a poster DG asks about DK's 911 call. Klein or his associate replies that they are in possession of it but will not release it.

Last time I copied and pasted from the Q and A (with the link, about the color of little DeOrr's tee shirt), my post was deleted so I'm not sure if I can do that again...

I've posted a few times that it is fine to c&p posts by KIC, but not the comments by readers. Always be sure to include a link. Thanks.

Here's the link to the Q&A thread on FB.

https://www.facebook.com/KleinInvestigations/posts/937132659702652

 

[Rayemonde]

We also have a thread dedicated to the Missing 411 books/ theory:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...issing-411-People-Vanishing-in-National-Parks

 

[Bootsctr]

I can think of a whole bunch of accidental ways a child could die on a camping trip in that location:

drown in the creek
fall down that ledge to the creek and crack his head open
carbon monoxide poisoning from defective stove, or in the vehicle
run over by vehicle
strangled in tent rope or something along those lines
left in vehicle in the sun
fell down a hole such as an unmarked mine shaft, animal hole, etc.
ate a poisonous plant
choked on his candy bar

But what I can't figure out in any of those cases is why they would have covered up the accident and hid the event rather than trying to get help. The timeline is so tight that covering up must have been the first reaction. And that just doesn't make any sense to me.

I also thought of DeOrr being run over by a vehicle. BUT, whose first reaction would to "we gotta cover this up" and not "call 911". And then to subsequently start blaming someone else camping with them... It's weird.

I do have confidence that the sheriff is confident that the campground and surrounding area was searched thoroughly:

A massive month-long search of the campground and the surrounding area ensued, but no trace of the boy has ever been found.


"We had all the resources in place,” Bowerman said. “We put the helicopters in place, we had good scent dogs, and we had a volunteer search and rescue team. We should have found that child.”

http://www.idahostatejournal.com/me...cle_156ed875-b71c-57e6-b472-eea0258a890e.html

 

[cluciano63]

Wow, if these parents really know what happened to this child, just imagine the massive amount of dollars spent and resources used for nothing. Not to mention possibility of lost or injured searchers. The county is unlikely to ever see any reimbursement, jmo.

 

[Rayemonde]

I think that a parent who loses custody of a child still has the right to visitation. It's when parental rights are terminated that they no longer have a right to visitation.

But it's all just rumour anyway afaic, as we know nothing about the legal arrangement or the personal circumstances of the situation... All I know is what I've read on SM. Has it been mentioned in the msm at all?

 

[bessie]

I also thought of DeOrr being run over by a vehicle. BUT, whose first reaction would to "we gotta cover this up" and not "call 911". And then to subsequently start blaming someone else camping with them... It's weird.

I do have confidence that the sheriff is confident that the campground and surrounding area was searched thoroughly:


http://www.idahostatejournal.com/me...cle_156ed875-b71c-57e6-b472-eea0258a890e.html

SB described the search efforts in detail during his interview with Tricia in October.

11:09
TG: Okay, and you have…you have searched at great lengths and great depths the reservoir and the stream…uh creek.

11:17
SB: Yes! We dove the reservoir at least four days. We put a side-scan sonar in on one day. We also uh flew a helicopter both in daylight and at night with the FLIR to illuminate for body heat, and we found absolutely nothing other than our canines alerted on it but we found that someone had come in behind us and had uh put some human cremains in of a loved one and that kind of threw our dogs off.

11:51
TG: Oh! So like spreading the ashes of their loved one and then the dog goes there and is like, hey, there’s human remains. Oh, boy! That must be frustrating!

11:59
SB: Right. And in the creek, from the…from the campground down approximately two miles, we literally walked that, waded it in hip boots and 20-30 people were removing every uh tree, limb, every branch. We had a device, a tubular device with plexiglass on it, that we could actually look down into the water and they reached under every embankment and literally uh tore that creek apart looking for uh Deorr.

12:31
TG: So obviously I think the first place everybody thinks is Oh my gosh, the poor kid fell in the water, was taken down, maybe stuck under a rock or something, but you feel confident that you have searched the creek and the reservoir enough that you feel confident that you need to start looking else… or continue to look elsewhere, right?

12:50
SB: Exactly! We had…we’ve had a total of uh I believe 18 dogs in there and those dogs should have alerted, you know even after the fact, after the length of time that we’d been looking should alert should that child be in there, but my two scent dogs that were in there initially, they should have found that child. They really should have.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot&p=12122056#post12122056