ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #9

[Cardinal47]

Dogs are very useful in search and rescue, but they aren't infallible. I don't think it would be surprising to find him or some of his possessions (boots, car, etc.) within the three-mile circle.

I also won't be surprised if he wandered outside that circle. Small kids can travel a surprising distance.

I don't think there is anyway a little 2 1/2 year old boy in too big cowboy boots would wander 3 miles.

I along with the sheriff am stumped as to what happened to little DeOrr.

If he is outside the 3 miles than somebody took him there. He didn't walk alone.

MOO

 

[Arnie M]

The sheriff mentioned that hunters might find him up there. Does he mean possibly where they've already searched? If so, that doesn't explain the dogs not picking up a scent. So, I assume he means outside the 3 mile radius that was searched. Wouldn't someone have had to take him outside the radius? Was he alive at the time, and just left there and died from the elements? I really doubt that, but who knows. Or, he could've been taken further out if an accident/death had occurred--thinking the body would decompose before it was found. Then again, why cover up an accident?

The majority of Old Case , and Cold Case missing persons are solved by hunters .

For the following reasons:
--- Hunters go into terrain nobody else does (away from roads , trails , and civilization)
--- Hunters are very observant
--- Hunters will often simultaneously scan the horizon and look closely at the ground in front of them (tracks , scat etc)
--- Hunters look for the tiniest details in the bush , an ear , an eye (etc) .... they never expect to see a perfect full view of the deer or moose or turkey

Hunters include: ginseng hunters , wildlife hunters , arrowhead hunters , artifact hunters , and sometimes hikers who travel off the beaten path. Geologists too.

By comparison , searchers from the general public will walk side by side along a busy road in waist high grass in front of TV cameras.

They half expect a missing and deceased person to pop out of the weeds waving a red flag. Those folks never find anything , but it makes them feel good . Unfortunately , emotions are not search tools. Neither do they make for good detective skills.

Best wishes

 

[ninij9]

The majority of Old Case , and Cold Case missing persons are solved by hunters .

For the following reasons:
--- Hunters go into terrain nobody else does (away from roads , trails , and civilization)
--- Hunters are very observant
--- Hunters will often simultaneously scan the horizon and look closely at the ground in front of them (tracks , scat etc)
--- Hunters look for the tiniest details in the bush , an ear , an eye (etc) .... they never expect to see a perfect full view of the deer or moose or turkey

Hunters include: ginseng hunters , wildlife hunters , arrowhead hunters , artifact hunters , and sometimes hikers who travel off the beaten path. Geologists too.

By comparison , searchers from the general public will walk side by side along a busy road in waist high grass in front of TV cameras.

They half expect a missing and deceased person to pop out of the weeds waving a red flag. Those folks never find anything , but it makes them feel good . Unfortunately , emotions are not search tools. Neither do they make for good detective skills.

Best wishes

Good observations!
In a perfect world, hunters would be SAR in the off season.
I hate that this little one could be right up there, just waiting for someone to find him.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[catswhiskers]

I think the confusion about the second campsite might be from footage we saw of DeOrr's parents at a different site days after he was reported missing. They moved further away to clear the area for LE, while still staying close by to keep searching themselves.

I believe they all arrived at the campground on the same night. There was some discussion here about their sleeping arrangements that first night - with GGP sleeping in his camper, IR in a tent, and little DeOrr and both parents sleeping in their truck. Some posters thought it was strange of them to have slept in the truck rather than in the camper with GGP. On hearing that they arrived late and possibly almost near nightfall, it makes sense to me that they didn't fully set up camp that evening, and left the rest of setting up until daylight.

 

[Arnie M]

I think the confusion about the second campsite might be from footage we saw of DeOrr's parents at a different site days after he was reported missing. They moved further away to clear the area for LE, while still staying close by to keep searching themselves.
<snip>

You are correct , the dad remained camping on higher ground in a more open area , most likely for good cellphone reception and other reasons.

My heart goes out to him , he tries not to give up hope.

 

[Hoosier952]

Here are two news videos that show Timber Creek. One was filmed 4 days after DeOrr went missing and the other was one week after he went missing. In both videos, (to me) the creek doesn't appear to be loud rushing water and it appears to be quite shallow in places.

I wonder if there had been any rain in the days previous to their arrival or during the time that they were there, that the creek had become swollen with rushing water?

We have a creek that runs through the back of our property. Approx 1-2 hours after a heavy rain it gets deep quickly and has a very strong, fast current. This usually lasts for several hours after the rain has ended and then the creek slowly recedes back to its normal 2-3 feet deep.


Timber Creek - 4 days after DeOrr went missing: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qvZbH7NSadA

Timber Creek - 1 week after DeOrr went missing: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=izUz0Ul6N0g

I looked this up the other day. I know it rained a bit over .3" between 2 days the week prior in Leadore. I believe it was something like .2x" on the 8th of July and .0x" on the 5th. I would assume the creek would have been back to normal before the 10th.

 

[sonj]

[video=youtube;mwM1oG3z358]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwM1oG3z358[/video]

Around the 9 minute mark Deorr (father) says he wasn't more than 50 yards away, and then the mother interrupts with "10 minutes", which the father then seems (to me) to awkwardly try and spin her remark into the time it took for the parents to figure out little Deorr was gone.

I see two ways of making sense of her remark. Either she meant they were ten minutes away from the campsite (which is not 50 yards, it would take around a minute to walk 50 yards), or she meant they were gone ten minutes.

So they left Deorr with GGP to walk 50 yards away, hang around for 8 or so minutes (hence the ten minute remark, minus walking), and then return back to GGP and discover Deorr was not with GGP.

Or, they went further away, and it took them 10 minutes to walk back (which is far greater than 50 yards), which it appears (to me) that the mother seemed to be implying. If she was in fact implying that "10 minutes" meant the distance of the walk and NOT the time since they left Deorr, then why did Deorr Senior (father) spin her remark to mean the time since they left Deorr, and not the distance back?

If it seems like I'm grasping at straws, it's because I am. With so little information to go on, not even a clear timeline and Deorr's parents appearing to avoid (hide from?) the media, all that's left to do is pour over any piece of information we have. It could well be the case that the mother simply meant what Deorr senior implied, that "10 minutes" referred to the time between their last sighting of Deorr and the time it took to discover he was missing. Or, it could mean that she was referring to the distance they were away from the campsite (10 minute walk), which would contradict Deorr Senior's statement of 50 yards. Who takes 10 minutes to walk 50 yards?

Probably nothing but I'm just throwing this out there.

Also I'm not much of a person for feelings or 'vibes' etc, and maybe it's just me but does anyone else feel like their manner during this interview is kind of 'off'? The father spends so much time thanking the SAR, volunteers, his boss, etc, I get the feeling that it's just a little.. 'forced'. It's as if he's trying to convey emotion and thanks and being grateful and I can kind of make out points where it's almost as if he's about (or trying?) to cry, and there's really something strange about the mothers manner.

If I put myself in his shoes, which admittedly is hard to do seeing as though none of my children have ever gone missing and I don't know how I would behave, but his son is missing, there's been EXTENSIVE searches conducted and NOT A SINGLE TRACE of Deorr has been found, not even a scent, and yet there he sits thanking everyone for their effort. If Deorr really did wander away, then surely "you could not ask for better people" doesn't fit. If SAR is so great (in his mind), then why haven't they found a single trace of evidence? Why is he praising people who have essentially turned up nothing?

Please note I am not attacking SAR/volunteers etc, and I admit I am making mountains out of molehills, but what else is there to do when little Deorr has been missing this long without a trace, and so, so little information?

Why aren't the parents taking every chance they can get to keep their sons disappearance in the media? They appear to be doing the exact opposite... Perhaps they're afraid of rumours, or they genuinely think he's out there and it's a case for the SAR, or perhaps something else is going on.

A *HUGE* red flag, for me at least, is that the FBI is now involved. If this really is a case of child wanders away from campsite, and succumbs to the elements, I hate to be graphic but even if his remains are located beyond the 3 mile radius (with Deorr somehow wandering that far in oversized cowboy boots not shedding a single item of clothing leaving any scent or trace evidence), shouldn't the dogs be able to pick up on the scent of decomposition? Seeing as though they haven't, doesn't this at least point towards Deorr NOT being in the area? Why is the sheriff so sure? Why is the FBI now involved?

Sorry for the rambling post, I guess like everyone else I'm just so frustrated with this case. So little information, and what information there is is contradictory or unsure. Where is Deorr?!

 

[ClaireNC]

I think I recall either the parents, the sheriff, or perhaps Nate the reporter stated how loud the creek was which is why no one heard a scream. This would indicate the creek was rushing in that area on that day. IMO

FWIW, I just had a conversation with somebody that has been to the campsite. The creek is about 6-8 inches deep at most and it is full of rocks and debris. There is no way he could have fallen into the creek and been washed away. It is impossible. It is also not very loud and screams would have been heard.

Of course this can be considered a rumor, since I don't have a link.

 

[minnermomma]

Have we heard if he had socks on in his over sized boots? My son would wear his boots either way, when he was little and seems like we always had better results keeping them on if he remembered his socks. Silly question, I know, but was just today watching a kid little Deorr's size clomping around in his a little too big boots. Guess it's like another question we have no answer for either, was he wearing a t shirt, maybe, under his camo hoodie.

 

[Arnie M]

[video=youtube;mwM1oG3z358]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwM1oG3z358[/video]

Around the 9 minute mark Deorr (father) says he wasn't more than 50 yards away, and then the mother interrupts with "10 minutes", which the father then seems (to me) to awkwardly try and spin her remark into the time it took for the parents to figure out little Deorr was gone.

I see two ways of making sense of her remark. Either she meant they were ten minutes away from the campsite (which is not 50 yards, it would take around a minute to walk 50 yards), or she meant they were gone ten minutes.

So they left Deorr with GGP to walk 50 yards away, hang around for 8 or so minutes (hence the ten minute remark, minus walking), and then return back to GGP and discover Deorr was not with GGP.

Or, they went further away, and it took them 10 minutes to walk back (which is far greater than 50 yards), which it appears (to me) that the mother seemed to be implying. If she was in fact implying that "10 minutes" meant the distance of the walk and NOT the time since they left Deorr, then why did Deorr Senior (father) spin her remark to mean the time since they left Deorr, and not the distance back?

No big deal , the dad was talking distance , the mom minutes , amounts to about the same thing . I do not think they were carrying tape measures and stop watches

Do you have any opinion on what the mom and dad said from 5:57 to 6:57 in the video ?

Thanks.

 

[neesaki]

The majority of Old Case , and Cold Case missing persons are solved by hunters .

For the following reasons:
--- Hunters go into terrain nobody else does (away from roads , trails , and civilization)
--- Hunters are very observant
--- Hunters will often simultaneously scan the horizon and look closely at the ground in front of them (tracks , scat etc)
--- Hunters look for the tiniest details in the bush , an ear , an eye (etc) .... they never expect to see a perfect full view of the deer or moose or turkey

Hunters include: ginseng hunters , wildlife hunters , arrowhead hunters , artifact hunters , and sometimes hikers who travel off the beaten path. Geologists too.

By comparison , searchers from the general public will walk side by side along a busy road in waist high grass in front of TV cameras.

They half expect a missing and deceased person to pop out of the weeds waving a red flag. Those folks never find anything , but it makes them feel good . Unfortunately , emotions are not search tools. Neither do they make for good detective skills.

Best wishes

Just a comment on what you mentioned about "ginseng hunters"... How interesting that you mention that, as in the Dennis Martin case, there was a man that several years later after little Dennis disappeared, came upon skeletal remains of a small child. He was afraid to report it because he was hunting illegally for ginseng so didn't report finding the remains until several years later. By that time, the remains were no longer there and have never been found. My heart just goes out to that poor, sweet, precious boy and his family. I was so hoping for a better outcome in Deorr's case. Well, we will see. Maybe there's still hope.

 

[Elena]

So why does it seem that great grandfather just let a 2 year old wander off toward the creek and not go after him?

"My dad was standing their watching him and he turned his head and then (Deorr) was gone," Clegg said. "It appears like he just vanished."

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/grandma-of-missing-2-year-old-he-just-vanished/
7/12/15

So when I come back up to get him and I yelled over to grandpa, uh, "Where is," you know, "Where is little DeOrr?" he, immediately, shocked, he says, "I thought he came up to you."

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/uncut-entire-interview-with-parents-of-deorr-kunz/
7/13/15

Grandfather assumes he’s gone down to them because he was within their (parents) line of sight and uh, wasn’t too far from the campground.

Primarily, the information we have is…grandpa is watching the child. He tells me he looks away momentarily. When he looks back, he’s gone, and he’s assumed he’s gone over the bank.

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/08/lemhi-sheriff-opens-up-about-deorr-kunz-case/

Grandpa saw that little DeOrr was within his parents line of sight and when he presumes he went over the bank, he knows his parents are there too. JMO

Isaac says "as far as I know (he just disappeared) because Isaac wasn't there when DeOrr disappeared. He wonders if the reporter has talked to Grandpa because Grandpa was there and my guess is Grandpa later told Isaac he saw little DeOrr go toward/to his parents.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

Hi Jules71, do you have any more version of little Deorr's last "seen"? So far, I've got:

1. Assumed left with GGP, returned after 10-15 minutes later and DeOrr was gone. http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/sheriff-family-friend-not-a-suspect-in-deorr-kunz-case/
2. Trina Clegg said “My dad was standing there watching him and he turned his head and then (Deorr) was gone,” grandmother Trina Bates Clegg said on July 12. “It appears like he just vanished.” http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/grandma-of-missing-2-year-old-he-just-vanished/

 

[Arnie M]

Just a comment: "ginseng hunters"... How interesting that you mention that, as in the Dennis Martin case, there was a man that several years later after little Dennis disappeared, came upon skeletal remains of a small child. He was afraid to report it because he was hunting illegally for ginseng so didn't report it until several years later. I just find it interesting, yet very sad for that poor, precious boy and his family.

Thanks neesaki .... it was also a Ginseng hunter who found the remains of Holly Bobo.

 

[neesaki]

Thanks neesaki .... it was also a Ginseng hunter who found the remains of Holly Bobo.

I had no idea, thanks to you too, Arnie M.

 

[Jules71]

Hi Jules71, do you have any more version of little Deorr's last "seen"? So far, I've got:

1. Assumed left with GGP, returned after 10-15 minutes later and DeOrr was gone. http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/sheriff-family-friend-not-a-suspect-in-deorr-kunz-case/
2. Trina Clegg said “My dad was standing there watching him and he turned his head and then (Deorr) was gone,” grandmother Trina Bates Clegg said on July 12. “It appears like he just vanished.” http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/grandma-of-missing-2-year-old-he-just-vanished/

Just what I posted. Oh and from the parent's interview when Dad says he thought Jr would be good (fine) with gpa by the fire.

I was previously of the opinion that gpa never knew he was supposed to be watching DeOrr. Now, I believe he saw him go to/toward his parents and that they were within eye sight of gpa when he turned away.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

 

[Hoosier952]

Ginseng hunters and folks who hunt for shed antlers spend a great deal of time staring at the ground, often in harsh terrain, making them perfect for finding things that most people wouldn't see. And when you're focusing on something as small as a ginseng plant or trying to find a few tines sticking out of the weeds, you're far more likely to see something that doesn't belong. Ginseng hunters who are finding and digging ginseng get the added bonus of spending a lot of time at ground level, not only looking but feeling the ground beneath them. You see things you could never see standing up.

 

[MzOpinion8d]

No big deal , the dad was talking distance , the mom minutes , amounts to about the same thing . I do not think they were carrying tape measures and stop watches

Do you have any opinion on what the mom and dad said from 5:57 to 6:57 in the video ?

Thanks.

It doesn't take 10 min to walk 50 yards away, so actually they don't amount to the same thing. I can walk 1/2 mile in 10 min at a leisurely pace.

 

[Mickshawn]

Just what I posted. Oh and from the parent's interview when Dad says he thought Jr would be good (fine) with gpa by the fire.

I was previously of the opinion that gpa never knew he was supposed to be watching DeOrr. Now, I believe he saw him go to/toward his parents and that they were within eye sight of gpa when he turned away.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

So, according to what Jessica's mom says, GGP WAS watching DeOrr and KNEW IT! It seems GGP saw that the parents were within eye sight when he turned away, but did the parents realize DeOrr might have been heading their way?? You'd think if they noticed him, they might be looking over their shoulders to check in every so often.

 

[Mickshawn]

It is very easy! This trick will redirect you to your last read comment:
1. Bookmark the thread you would like to subscribe
2. Go to your bookmark, and Edit the bookmark
3. Change the last part of the link by adding : &goto=newpost


Example, for this current thread:
www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?288139-ID-Deorr-Kunz-Jr-2-Timber-Creek-Campground-10-July-2015-9&goto=newpost

Hope this helps

Hmmmm...I tried this, but it didn't work....Just bookmarking the page is good enough for me....I can easily find my last post, especially if I just jot it down somewhere.

 

[ClaireNC]

Ginseng hunters and folks who hunt for shed antlers spend a great deal of time staring at the ground, often in harsh terrain, making them perfect for finding things that most people wouldn't see. And when you're focusing on something as small as a ginseng plant or trying to find a few tines sticking out of the weeds, you're far more likely to see something that doesn't belong. Ginseng hunters who are finding and digging ginseng get the added bonus of spending a lot of time at ground level, not only looking but feeling the ground beneath them. You see things you could never see standing up.

FYI - I don't think there are many ginseng hunters in Idaho. The plant is not native to that state.

On the other hand, I do agree with the statements made earlier about hunters in general being more acutely aware of their surroundings. The successful hunter has his or her senses in overdrive when out in the woods.