Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *mom arrested* #30

[Alpha Bravo]

It keeps coming up. Whether it is true or not that you can "get away with murder" in this area is immaterial. If someone believes it is true, it might not matter whether it is or not. Where this falls apart as a theory for Tylee's disappearance is that it is extremely clear this only applies to the portion of Yellowstone that is in the state of Idaho. This is a small strip on the extreme western part of the park going from the SW corner north for only part of the way. The only way to get into this part of the park that doesn't involve a long difficult hike is to enter the park hiking from outside the park from Idaho to the west. But we know that Tylee entered the park at one of the car entrances, most likely West Yellowstone which would have put them in an area making the "Zone of Death" difficult to get to.

MOO

Here is the map to it. It appears roadless.
Idaho's 'Death Zone'; Acres Of Lawless Land Where Crime Is Free

 

[Tortoise]

And I have tried to poke around a bit into what goes on with all this "energy healing". Clearly most of it is just multi level marketing crapola...but even some of these presentations of people involved with "energy healing" seem to discuss crystals, gems etc. My guess is that this big circle of theirs had plenty of expertise on this stuff. imo.
Summer Energy Healing Conference SLC 2018

Has what was written about malachite in IP's notes been discussed? (it's possible I missed it)

bbm

11. Spiritual weapons

a. dark and light weapons

i. weapons that cannot be perceived by telestial beings that injure and scar the spirit.​

b. cords

i. ties to people and things both light and dark that influence us​

c. spiritual healing

i. healing malachite solution/balm
1. malachite is said to have healing properties
2. administered by calling on it in a blessing​

So 'healing' is a weapon. specifically healing malachite solution/balm, administered during a blessing.

moo

ID - ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *MEDIA MAPS TIMELINE* NO DISCUSSION

​

 

[Tortoise]

when I search malachite solution I get results for formaldehyde. Isn't that what they use during embalming?

way to go, use a poison they are expecting to find so they ignore it... moo

 

[Trouble1321075]

About Yellowstone, I've read about the wild animals. Bears hibernate, are they out now? I know other predators do not hibernate. I don't want to even type this out. If the children are in Yellowstone, will the bodies be preserved by freezing? I have looked for temperatures that bodys freeze. I can't find it. I can't seem to get the right wording. It's sickening to think about.

Meat freezes in the low 20s

 

[Tortoise]

It's so unusual for a man to take his wife's name I have to consider another possible reason is that whoever told him it was a good idea - because police would find it harder to track him down - already knew his death was on the cards and did it so that he wouldn't be linked by authorities to the trail of deaths, attacks and missing children, and therefore wouldn't suspect foul play involved in his death and would release his body quickly for cremation. We know that's not what transpired but maybe that wasn't due to lack of effort on Z's part.

I wonder how police did join the dots as to his identity. Perhaps they did a good job (compared to Tammy) and someone diligent really wanted to see his medical history.

moo

 

[FindingJoLee]

It's so unusual for a man to take his wife's name I have to consider another possible reason is that whoever told him it was a good idea - because police would find it harder to track him down - already knew his death was on the cards and did it so that he wouldn't be linked by authorities to the trail of deaths, attacks and missing children, and therefore wouldn't suspect foul play involved in his death and would release his body quickly for cremation. We know that's not what transpired but maybe that wasn't due to lack of effort on Z's part.

I wonder how police did join the dots as to his identity. Perhaps they did a good job (compared to Tammy) and someone diligent really wanted to see his medical history.

moo

I wonder if it was as simple as his drivers license for trucking employment was sitting in a wallet in his back pocket? With his name not yet changed??

Wouldn't the same police department (Chandler) have responded to Alex' death as responded Alex murdered Charles?

 

[Tortoise]

I wonder if it was as simple as his drivers license for trucking employment was sitting in a wallet in his back pocket? With his name not yet changed??

Wouldn't the same police department (Chandler) have responded to Alex' death as responded Alex murdered Charles?

He died in Gilbert.

Good idea about the license. Yes, Tammy's exhumation really expedited this, imo.

 

[divineappt]

I am looking up malachite balm and non that I have found so far actually have (or show) malachite as an ingredient. Just, “Healing properties “as the malachite””

But this was interesting. Malachite Spiritual Healing Guide | Meaning & Properties

 

[Gardener1850]

It's so unusual for a man to take his wife's name I have to consider another possible reason is that whoever told him it was a good idea - because police would find it harder to track him down - already knew his death was on the cards and did it so that he wouldn't be linked by authorities to the trail of deaths, attacks and missing children, and therefore wouldn't suspect foul play involved in his death and would release his body quickly for cremation. We know that's not what transpired but maybe that wasn't due to lack of effort on Z's part.

I wonder how police did join the dots as to his identity. Perhaps they did a good job (compared to Tammy) and someone diligent really wanted to see his medical history.

moo

I think the name change was his attempt to hide while still alive and has nothing to do with any plans to hide his identity in death. Alex has an arrest record. Police would have gotten his ID from his fingerprints after his death. Plus, I don't think he took legal steps to change his name yet because they have him listed on the AZ ME's website as Alex Cox, not Pastenes. Getting married and putting on the marriage certificate his intent to change his name doesn't legally change it in the US. He would have to apply for a Social Security name change and submit a copy of the marriage record to the the SS office after getting married. But doing that step would allow the feds to track him down. However, the marriage record can be used without a SS name change to do some things under the name Pastenes. For anything not requiring him to give a SS# he could present his Alex Cox driver's license and his marriage record as evidence of name change and sign up for things under the name Alex Pastenes. In AZ there are many undocumented immigrants without SS#'s so he might have easily found people willing to rent a house to him without require a SS#, he also might have found a storage unit place that didn't require one. He could get a phone and even a job with the right employer (one who is hiring illegal immigrants/undocumented laborers). It's very sneaky. He could have lived quite a while (years possibly) under the name Alex Pastenes without being located, because state marriage records are not in any federal database (AFAIK). Federal investigators would have to know to look in Clark County, NV for the marriage record and even then they wouldn't know he intended to change his name unless they applied for a copy of the marriage certificate or interviewed the officiant. It seems like Lori might have done the same thing and used Daybell after marrying Chad without legally changing her name. MOO.

 

[divineappt]

I believe whoever started this line of thinking is on to something. It’s easy to get, and is in line with the “Spiritual healing” they supposedly believe in. I say supposedly, because some are not necessarily sure they (CD & LVD) actually believe it themselves or are just using it as a convenience for getting what they want.


It does seem to me from what I’ve seen to be easy to detect in the system though. Although I don’t think they thought there would ever be autopsies.


Copper Sulfate General Fact Sheet


and


Copper Sulfate Technical Fact Sheet


Acute Toxicity:


Oral


The acute oral LD50 in rats is 450 to 790 mg/kg. The U.S. EPA considered copper sulfate pentahydrate to be moderately toxic by ingestion.3 See the text boxes on Toxicity Classification and LD50/LC50.

Humans may be exposed to copper in drinking water. Volunteers drank purified water with copper at concentrations ranging from 0-12 mg/L. They reported nausea starting at 4 mg/L and vomiting at 6 mg/L. Solutions containing copper and orange flavor raised the NOEL to 6 mg/L for nausea and 12 mg/L for vomiting. Hence, flavored beverages contaminated with copper may lead to higher exposures.15 See the text box on NOEL.

Scientists measured total copper ion in people's blood serum after they ingested copper sulfate. Mean blood copper levels of 287 µg/L Cu were correlated with mild toxicosis and levels of 798 µg/L Cu to severe toxicosis.16

The toxic dose of copper sulfate for cattle is 200-880 mg/kg. Sheep are ten times more sensitive with a toxic dose of 20-110 mg/kg of copper sulfate.17

Adult roosters were exposed by intubation to copper sulfate doses of 200, 600, 800, 1200 and 1600 mg/kg body weight. The acute LD50 was determined to be 693 mg/kg. Treated animals developed diarrhea and died within 24 to 28 hours. Necropsies revealed bleeding of the kidneys and liver, necrosis in liver tissue, and testicular atrophy.18

LD50/LC50: A common measure of acute toxicity is the lethal dose (LD50) or lethal concentration (LC50) that causes death (resulting from a single or limited exposure) in 50 percent of the treated animals. LD50 is generally expressed as the dose in milligrams (mg) of chemical per kilogram (kg) of body weight. LC50 is often expressed as mg of chemical per volume (e.g., liter (L)) of medium (i.e., air or water) the organism is exposed to. Chemicals are considered highly toxic when the LD50/LC50 is small and practically non-toxic when the value is large. However, the LD50/LC50 does not reflect any effects from long-term exposure (i.e., cancer, birth defects or reproductive toxicity) that may occur at levels below those that cause death.


Dermal


Copper sulfate is not a skin irritant. It was classified by the U.S. EPA as very low in toxicity for dermal irritation. The dermal LD50 was greater than 2000 mg/kg in rats.3

Copper sulfate caused severe eye irritation from day 1 in rabbits that were exposed up to 21 days, and it was ranked as highly toxic by the U.S. EPA for primary eye irritation.3

No data were found regarding the potential for copper sulfate to cause dermal sensitization in any species.3


How about the statement “drinking the Koolaid”. . . seems to fit!

 

[Alpha Bravo]

It's so unusual for a man to take his wife's name I have to consider another possible reason is that whoever told him it was a good idea - because police would find it harder to track him down - already knew his death was on the cards and did it so that he wouldn't be linked by authorities to the trail of deaths, attacks and missing children, and therefore wouldn't suspect foul play involved in his death and would release his body quickly for cremation. We know that's not what transpired but maybe that wasn't due to lack of effort on Z's part.

I wonder how police did join the dots as to his identity. Perhaps they did a good job (compared to Tammy) and someone diligent really wanted to see his medical history.

moo

Well, we do have Kanye Kardashian... But really, this was a lame attempt at lying / deceiving, dreamed up by our little blonde dreamboat, no doubt.
Alex was smart enough to know it just made him look guilty. As far as his perks of the marriage to Z go, this was a pretty tiny bone.

 

[tresir2012]

And I have tried to poke around a bit into what goes on with all this "energy healing". Clearly most of it is just multi level marketing crapola...but even some of these presentations of people involved with "energy healing" seem to discuss crystals, gems etc. My guess is that this big circle of theirs had plenty of expertise on this stuff. imo.
Summer Energy Healing Conference SLC 2018

Looks like just a way to get money out of people if you ask me. I keep thinking of the interview that one of the reporters had with some poor woman who was made worse by this energy healing. It should be banned IMO. We have medical doctors for this.

 

[Onsdag]

Has what was written about malachite in IP's notes been discussed? (it's possible I missed it)

bbm

11. Spiritual weapons

a. dark and light weapons

i. weapons that cannot be perceived by telestial beings that injure and scar the spirit.​

b. cords

i. ties to people and things both light and dark that influence us​

c. spiritual healing

i. healing malachite solution/balm
1. malachite is said to have healing properties
2. administered by calling on it in a blessing​

So 'healing' is a weapon. specifically healing malachite solution/balm, administered during a blessing.

moo

ID - ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *MEDIA MAPS TIMELINE* NO DISCUSSION

​

If these people believe the Dungeons & Dragons, Harry Potter, Zombie stuff then it might actually make sense (in their minds). In D&D and some other fantasy settings healing spells/potions/items actually have the opposite effect on the undead (zombies included) as it would on normal people. So something that would heal a normal or 'good' person would at the same time repel, hurt, or kill a zombie, vampire, or other 'evil' creature. These things found in fantasy literature, movies, and games are actually rooted in common religious beliefs and practices as well - e.g. holy water in Catholicism, a priesthood blessing of healing or to cast out devils, etc.

As far as using gemstones, minerals, crystals, etc., as a method of poisoning I have my doubts. I have no expertise in this whatever, so take it as a MOO, but from what little research I've done from the links other people have shared in this thread it seems such poisoning generally takes time. As in over a period of months or years of exposure. Furthermore, it may not be isolated to just the person exposed to the dust/particles. It seems like it would be a highly ineffective way to administer poison.

And at least in the case of Tammy (and probably Alex as well) the symptoms and/or death was pretty rapidly onset. Tammy appeared perfectly healthy in the weeks/days leading up to her death and the only apparent sign of trouble or distress occurred that night as she was coughing and vomiting. Her death, if we trust Chad's account (which is the only one we have), appears to have happened within a matter of hours. In the case of Alex we don't know his condition or circumstances in the days/weeks prior, but from what little we do know from the 911 call (warning: somewhat graphic content ahead) it would appear that he went to go to the bathroom, sat down, lost control of his body and fell over onto the floor as his bowels were loosed, and he rapidly deteriorated until succumbing to whatever afflicted him. In his case it appears to have been only a matter of minutes, or possibly hours if it took time to go through his system.

If they were poisoned then it seems to me like it was administered orally in something they ate/drank. MOO.

 

[tresir2012]

Cancelling his own flights while out on business, hiding his truck, emptying his bank accounts...

Didn't she sell all the furniture and belongings too IIRC?

 

[tresir2012]

Has what was written about malachite in IP's notes been discussed? (it's possible I missed it)

bbm

11. Spiritual weapons

a. dark and light weapons

i. weapons that cannot be perceived by telestial beings that injure and scar the spirit.​

b. cords

i. ties to people and things both light and dark that influence us​

c. spiritual healing

i. healing malachite solution/balm
1. malachite is said to have healing properties
2. administered by calling on it in a blessing​

So 'healing' is a weapon. specifically healing malachite solution/balm, administered during a blessing.

moo

ID - ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *MEDIA MAPS TIMELINE* NO DISCUSSION

​

'Healing' somebody from being a zombie perhaps?

 

[tresir2012]

I wonder if it was as simple as his drivers license for trucking employment was sitting in a wallet in his back pocket? With his name not yet changed??

Wouldn't the same police department (Chandler) have responded to Alex' death as responded Alex murdered Charles?

No I think it may have been San Tan Valley but not sure.

ETA It was Gilbert, so Maricopa County, same as BB attempted murder.

Chandler police hope to talk to Lori Vallow once she's extradited to Idaho

 

[Tortoise]

Poisoning certainly seems to be quite a risky ploy. If it's not instant you run the risk of the person calling out for help or calling 911 themselves. And then there's the chance it doesn't succeed, unless the poisoner really knows what they are doing, the victim might not finish the drink or whatever, and then there is the opportunity for medical testing and poison being flagged up. In the case of Tammy, I don't think Chad would have wanted that risk, after the failed paintball attack. He could have just heavily sedated Tammy and then smothered her, imo. I don't necessarily think Tammy and Alex were killed in the same way. Linking them would also be another risk they would want to avoid, since they probably knew Tammy's death was being looked at.

moo

 

[fred&edna]

O/T

I do not see a moderator currently online. (It was much easier to find one before the changes to the site) How do I go about contacting them?

TIA

 

[Diddian]

I think the name change was his attempt to hide while still alive and has nothing to do with any plans to hide his identity in death. Alex has an arrest record. Police would have gotten his ID from his fingerprints after his death. Plus, I don't think he took legal steps to change his name yet because they have him listed on the AZ ME's website as Alex Cox, not Pastenes. Getting married and putting on the marriage certificate his intent to change his name doesn't legally change it in the US. He would have to apply for a Social Security name change and submit a copy of the marriage record to the the SS office after getting married. But doing that step would allow the feds to track him down. However, the marriage record can be used without a SS name change to do some things under the name Pastenes. For anything not requiring him to give a SS# he could present his Alex Cox driver's license and his marriage record as evidence of name change and sign up for things under the name Alex Pastenes. In AZ there are many undocumented immigrants without SS#'s so he might have easily found people willing to rent a house to him without require a SS#, he also might have found a storage unit place that didn't require one. He could get a phone and even a job with the right employer (one who is hiring illegal immigrants/undocumented laborers). It's very sneaky. He could have lived quite a while (years possibly) under the name Alex Pastenes without being located, because state marriage records are not in any federal database (AFAIK). Federal investigators would have to know to look in Clark County, NV for the marriage record and even then they wouldn't know he intended to change his name unless they applied for a copy of the marriage certificate or interviewed the officiant. It seems like Lori might have done the same thing and used Daybell after marrying Chad without legally changing her name. MOO.

Alex was married in Las Vegas and took the name Pastenes the day before Melani and Ian were married. The officiant said that the ceremony was quick and cool (just getting it done) and it was odd because it was the first time that officiant had seen a man take his wife's name in marriage. The very next day at another wedding chapel in Las Vegas, Alex used his new married name to sign as witness on Melani and Ian's marriage certificate. Given that one marriage occurred the day after the other but at different venues, it seems to me that the intent of Alex marrying and taking his new wife's name was so he would have that new name for the purpose of acting as witness to Melani and Ian's marriage, concealing that Alex Cox was serving in that role.

 

[tresir2012]

Copper sulfate (UK PID)

Link above re copper sulphate indicates only 10g needed for it to be fatal.