IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #168

[girlhasnoname]

Has Baldwins Friday filing been put up on the Court site or was it submitted under seal? Does anyone know?

 

[Bergmann]

But was any of that ever really here or did the ex-D dream it up? We don’t know anything except for the fact they hadn’t even reviewed the full discovery file before tossing out a bunch of dramatic allegations, assumably that was intentional. Now they’re gone, what does that say?

Which bits do you think weren’t there?

Everything I mentioned comes from the states PCA one way or another.

Most of that enquiring minds were already well aware of pre D memo.

Maybe the exception is the interpretation that P intentionally deceived Diener for the SW which came from the D review of the PCA and subsequently depositions.

The rest isn’t ‘dramatic allegations’ they are points of evidentiary interpretation (which is what the D vs P system is founded upon). Just because one doesn’t like them or support a preconception/ the P allegation, doesn’t make them ‘dramatic’ - it highlights them to be tested.

I fully agree the Odinist conspiracy and ritualistic sacrifice are under the heading of dramatic allegations - but those weren’t the flaws in states case that I listed… The ones I did are rather basic contestable issues that can’t be ignored or brushed away.

 

[MistyWaters]

Has Baldwins Friday filing been put up on the Court site or was it submitted under seal? Does anyone know?

This?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1715371681286377492

 

[FrostedGlass]

But do you believe that over Baldwin’s legal representation?

I don't know.
I find so much about this case "unbelievable"; I'm now just putting everything over in that column.

 

[MistyWaters]

Which bits do you think weren’t there?

Everything I mentioned comes from the states PCA one way or another.

Most of that enquiring minds were already well aware of pre D memo.

Maybe the exception is the interpretation that P intentionally deceived Diener for the SW which came from the D review of the PCA and subsequently depositions.

The rest isn’t ‘dramatic allegations’ they are points of evidentiary interpretation (which is what the D vs P system is founded upon). Just because one doesn’t like them or support a preconception/ the P allegation, doesn’t make them ‘dramatic’ - it highlights them to be tested.

I fully agree the Odinist conspiracy and ritualistic sacrifice are under the heading of dramatic allegations - but those weren’t the flaws in states case that I listed… The ones I did are rather basic contestable issues that can’t be ignored or brushed away.

The purpose of a PCA was to support RAs arrest, which it did. The ex-defence memo argued some of the points within it but did they review the discovery that supports what the prosecution wrote? We don’t know. Will the Judge deem the points worthy enough to hold a Frank’s Hearing when the new defense team is in place? We don’t know that either. Too many unknowns IMO.

 

[Bergmann]

Too many unknowns IMO.

Which is why I focused on listing the known issues.

Sensible commentary on this case has not been helped by some of the behaviour of the previous D in that memo.

However I prefer to deal with the actual material matters at hand. The state have laid specific aspects of their case down via that PCA (maybe not all - we don’t know). They are now pillars that the state can’t just take back (unless they withdraw or ongoing investigation supersedes these). IMO they are flawed and open to challenge and/ or significant reasonable doubt.

Which means if you’re P then IMO you’re going to need some other evidence tying RA to the CS/ victims. We know under oath that both Liggett and Holeman have testified that there is neither DNA or forensic electronic evidence that links RA to the crime scene. So the question that no one appears to want to consider is - if the state has more bombshell evidence (outside of what’s included in the PCA or had been discovered to date by previous D) then what could this possibly be? Because damned if I know what it could be?

 

[MistyWaters]

I don't know.
I find so much about this case "unbelievable"; I'm now just putting everything over in that column.

I‘m sorry if I don’t quite understand. The reporter is talking about what’s in the brief that Hennessy filed at 10am, although he’s speaking very quickly. There’s nothing in that brief that has been omitted or hidden from other news reports.

Bakdwin did not get the leaked photos from his trusted friend. In the brief his attorney admitted they were not stored securely and his trusted friend took advantage of that.

 

[MistyWaters]

Which is why I focused on listing the known issues.

Sensible commentary on this case has not been helped by some of the behaviour of the previous D in that memo.

However I prefer to deal with the actual material matters at hand. The state have laid specific aspects of their case down via that PCA (maybe not all - we don’t know). They are now pillars that the state can’t just take back (unless they withdraw or ongoing investigation supersedes these). IMO they are flawed and open to challenge and/ or significant reasonable doubt.

Which means if you’re P then IMO you’re going to need some other evidence tying RA to the CS/ victims. We know under oath that both Liggett and Holeman have testified that there is neither DNA or forensic electronic evidence that links RA to the crime scene. So the question that no one appears to want to consider is - if the state has more bombshell evidence (outside of what’s included in the PCA or had been discovered to date by previous D) then what could this possibly be? Because damned if I know what it could be?

It’s the issues you claim are issues that I view as unknown.

As a matter of fact at this point in time it’s unknown if the newly appointed defense will view the “old” issues in the same light. If they do, then the prosecution will be given an opportunity to respond. JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

Just a guess, but bringing in another agency seems like a good idea to me.

Let the local police focus on the murder part, and not this leaking problem.

Although come to think of it, ISP was involved in the first few months?

IDK, maybe fairly local @fallingdown can help us out.

jmho ymmv lrr

I believe ISP has been involved since the beginning.

When reporter Ron Wilkins tried to get RA's arrest information, ISP refused his request. RW filed a formal complaint and ISP admitted they refused the request and argued it was “under the direction” of the county prosecutor and that any court records were sealed.

https://www.in.gov/pac/files/advisory/22-FC-157.pdf

 

[arielilane]

Why start killing that day? Were there other crimes that led up to the murders? Any record of burglary, voyeur, even passing of bad checks, etc? It's not the norm for a middle age man to decide to start killing, right? What is known about the alleged killer RA? moo

 

[Emma Peel]

This leaking issue is out of my realm of expertise.
Why was the Indiana State Police be called in to investigate a leak?

I am pretty curious as to what law(s) may have been broken here and what the follow-up will be.

Follow up on the LEAK investigation side:

-If the position is that D broke the Gag order - The Contempt of Court would be a state matter b/c this Court is a State Court.

-If D was snookered behind his back (as presented in baldwin memo) - and the information was obtained without permission - was the material essentially stolen?

-If stolen, the theft would be Local and also maybe State b/c of various IN jurisdictions involved.

-BUT ... looking down the chain of dissemination ... the next level of the leak went inter-state ... so is that now a Federal matter? Does electronic distribution matter? Was $$ exchanged?

Follow up on the Court side:

- Court and/or Bar sanctions on Baldwin (assuming Baldwin was indeed snookered)

- NEW Defense motion(s) with regard to arguing the highly prejudicial nature of the Leak - seek dismissal? Seek throwing out the specific leaked evidence?

Follow up on the Civil side:
- RA suing any of the players?
- Baldwin suing any of the leaker players?


All in all - another hot mess.

I don't see how NEW Defense can/would simply ignore this development. It should be pursued in a vigorous defense. Also should be pursued on the civil side. This thing has put RA and family's life on hold for at least an extra year.

jmho

 

[MistyWaters]

I am pretty curious as to what law(s) may have been broken here and what the follow-up will be.

Follow up on the LEAK investigation side:

-If the position is that D broke the Gag order - The Contempt of Court would be a state matter b/c this Court is a State Court.

-If D was snookered behind his back (as presented in baldwin memo) - and the information was obtained without permission - was the material essentially stolen?

-If stolen, the theft would be Local and also maybe State b/c of various IN jurisdictions involved.

-BUT ... looking down the chain of dissemination ... the next level of the leak went inter-state ... so is that now a Federal matter? Does electronic distribution matter? Was $$ exchanged?

Follow up on the Court side:

- Court and/or Bar sanctions on Baldwin (assuming Baldwin was indeed snookered)

- NEW Defense motion(s) with regard to arguing the highly prejudicial nature of the Leak - seek dismissal? Seek throwing out the specific leaked evidence?

Follow up on the Civil side:
- RA suing any of the players?
- Baldwin suing any of the leaker players?


All in all - another hot mess.

I don't see how NEW Defense can/would simply ignore this development.

Just my opinion but it makes sense to me -
1) Baldwin failed to adhere to the confidentiality order related to the discovery, therefore he could face sanctions by the court. Knowingly or unknowingly doesn’t matter, he’s responsible. Through his lawyer in Hennessy‘s brief it was offered 24 hours of work without renumeration as a possible penalty.
2) The trusted friend stole data (data theft) which is a crime that ISP would’ve been tasked to investigate in order to authenticate the FB private msgs implicating him.

What we don’t know is if there is any evidence at all that Baldwin was complicit in the leak, if so he would face very serious ramifications including violation of his Oath. He has to hope his trusted friend can be honest and doesn’t implicate him, if he wasn’t involved knowingly in the plot.

 

[MistyWaters]

Why start killing that day? Were there other crimes that led up to the murders? Any record of burglary, voyeur, even passing of bad checks, etc? It's not the norm for a middle age man to decide to start killing, right? What is known about the alleged killer RA? moo

This would be something the prosecution would need to address at trial because I’m sure it would also be a question in the minds of the jury.

Short answer, we don’t know.

People who were close to him are very tight lipped in talking to the media. That’s fair I think, as he’s not been proven guilty. He wasn’t active on SM so….old joke, to some that suggests he doesn’t exist.

JMO

 

[Emma Peel]

Just my opinion but it makes sense to me -
1) Baldwin failed to adhere to the confidentiality order related to the discovery, therefore he could face sanctions by the court. Knowingly or unknowingly doesn’t matter, he’s responsible. Through his lawyer in Hennessy‘s brief it was offered 24 hours of work without renumeration as a possible penalty.
2) The trusted friend stole data (data theft) which is a crime that ISP would’ve been tasked to investigate in order to authenticate the FB private msgs implicating him.

What we don’t know is if there is any evidence at all that Baldwin was complicit in the leak, if so he would face very serious ramifications including violation of his Oath. He has to hope his trusted friend can be honest and doesn’t implicate him, if he wasn’t involved knowingly in the plot.

It seems to me that Baldwin (via memo filed) has already formally accused his former friend/associate as to some type of ... crime ... ?

Would the state be willing to let such a leak slide by with zero repercussion?

Sigh. We may not hear about it for a long time; any leak follow-up likely to also be held close by the state. MOO

 

[MistyWaters]

Just a guess, but bringing in another agency seems like a good idea to me.

Let the local police focus on the murder part, and not this leaking problem.

Although come to think of it, ISP was involved in the first few months?

IDK, maybe fairly local @fallingdown can help us out.

jmho ymmv lrr

ISP participated in the PC the day the bodies were found so they were involved since the very beginning. (IIRC The formal announcement of their identity wasn’t allowed until the autopsies were completed.)

2 bodies found during search for teen girls

An hour after Delphi AssistantFire Chief Curtis Borden toldRTV6two missing teen girls from Carroll County were found, calling it "not good," authorities said at a press conference two bodies had been found in the area they went missing.

www.wrtv.com

“Sergeant Kim Riley with the Indiana State Police wouldn't go so far as to identify the bodies as the girls in a press conference Tuesday, but they do suspect foul play.”

 

[NeverPersonal]

I wonder is solitary confinement really a bad thing considering the class of available ‘roommates‘?

Yes. Yes, it is.

Neuroscientists Make a Case against Solitary Confinement

Prolonged social isolation can do severe, long-lasting damage to the brain

www.scientificamerican.com

Social Isolation Linked to Reduced Brain Volume

Older adults who don’t often interact with others may be at higher risk of losing brain volume compared to those who socialize more.

www.everydayhealth.com

 

[NeverPersonal]

Accused of the homicide of two children. The presumed sexual homicide of two children. There would be pitchforks and torches held by angry mobs in the streets if a person charged with such crimes was free to roam while awaiting trial. This isn't bank fraud or parking fines, this is a situation where there is a clear and present danger. Both FROM him and TO him.

MOO

It's still not right to have a person who has not been convicted of any crimes locked away in prison, in solitary confinement, pre-trial.

 

[MistyWaters]

Yes. Yes, it is.

Neuroscientists Make a Case against Solitary Confinement

Prolonged social isolation can do severe, long-lasting damage to the brain

www.scientificamerican.com

Social Isolation Linked to Reduced Brain Volume

Older adults who don’t often interact with others may be at higher risk of losing brain volume compared to those who socialize more.

www.everydayhealth.com

Can RA‘s safety be guaranteed if he was held amongst the general population of any prison or jail?

 

[MistyWaters]

It's still not right to have a person who has not been convicted of any crimes locked away in prison, in solitary confinement, pre-trial.

It may not be right but nobody‘s come up with a better solution in hundreds of years. Society prefers that most people charged with murder are not freely mingling about. RA‘s in solitary so he’s safe from other prisoners who might be inclined to teach him a lesson. It is what it is.

 

[CGBSpender]

Why start killing that day? Were there other crimes that led up to the murders? Any record of burglary, voyeur, even passing of bad checks, etc? It's not the norm for a middle age man to decide to start killing, right? What is known about the alleged killer

Keep in mind…the charges themselves (Felony Murder) and the evidence thus far…doesn’t put the knife/edged weapon in RA’s hand. I have always felt if LE had something more in that regard (RA as a lone killer) they would have charged him with two counts of Intentional Murder instead, and two separate counts of kidnapping (four counts total). Evidence seems to point to RA having a role in the crime, but what that was exactly I think is up for debate at this point absent more evidence coming out.

In terms of history, details are scarce…but the police were called to RA’s home several years ago (pre 2017 if I recall correctly). He was taken to a hospital by his wife, and was not taken to jail.

No indications that there is any connection at this time (or if it is even factual)… However, there was a news report (the morning after police were called to RA’s home I believe) where a non-English speaking individual reported to a lawyer (who called police) that they believed they saw a body floating in a river in Delphi. DNR searched, but no body was found and no one was reported missing. Could be something, could be nothing.

There are at least two unsolved murders (pre 2017) in other States that I suspect may have some similarities to the Delphi crime, but neither location seems to have any connection to RA.

JMO