IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #168

[Vern]

You’re right, it makes very little actual sense. But each person associated with the leaks is said to have been vocally pro-defence my guess would be the photos are perceived to support the Odimism theory in some way. It would make even less sense to intentionally leak photos that damage it. I’m not saying I think it’d be real obvious, using the tree and the F as an example, but it’s usually the case that we see what we want to see.
JMO

I think it's important that we must remember that the Defence doesn't need to "prove the Odinism" theory in a court of law ... they just need to use it to cast doubt upon the prosecution's case and evidence. They aren't required to prove anything as that is the prosecution's burden.

The Prosecution will need to prove it's "not true/applicable" if that's what the Defence throws into the arena to cast their "reasonable doubt" into play.

 

[vls12345]

But the notion that D have hatched some kind of deliberate plot to get the CS photos out in the public domain? Makes very little actual sense - MOO.

The only way I can make that make sense (in my own mind) is if the D wanted off the case (for any reason) and thought their withdrawal might not be granted.

Just a guess and MOO.

 

[M. Kay]

That old theory will make it interesting for the new defence to go with a new theory given how the ex-D presented it to the public. It was as if LE had all the obvious Odinism evidence and suspects in front of their faces and chose to ignore it all, going after Rick the innocent instead.

Well worded comment about Rick being 'framed' in two uses of the word. What is next? Long interim ahead is terribly sad for family, friends and community facing the duration until deferred justice is finally sought by jury. Time erodes seeking justice again, and again.

 

[MistyWaters]

Maybe folks are too quick to judge.

One thing I think I've learned from reading appeals is one of the best things a defense atty can do for his client is lay a solid foundation for appeal in case the client is found guilty. IMO, this D team has done a good job in that respect.

If I understand correctly, by including the Odinism issues in the memorandum, it's now on record for the possible appeal process.

Perhaps but almost all convictions are appealed. Although an appeal granted makes the news google tells me the chance of winning an appeal is very low. Then even if a case is appealed and the conviction gets thrown out, the case is still retried. There’s no guarantee that would result in a not guilty verdict, as it didn’t the first time around.

IMO it’s better for a defense attorney to just go for a not guilty verdict. Expecting a guilty verdict, then counting on an appeal would seem downright risky.

I can’t imagine how Odinism would make for an automatic appeal given it was nothing more than a unproven defense theory (ie not guilty). Juries are instructed to vote for a conviction based on the State proving the defendant is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, through introducing evidence and testimony.

I‘d think given everything that’s occurred the selection of an impartial jury will be what’s becomes most critical in some far off trial. As I noticed experts to say, they predict the new defence will be less dramatic, if so that will be a very good thing. JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

I think it's important that we must remember that the Defence doesn't need to "prove the Odinism" theory in a court of law ... they just need to use it to cast doubt upon the prosecution's case and evidence. They aren't required to prove anything as that is the prosecution's burden.

The Prosecution will need to prove it's "not true/applicable" if that's what the Defence throws into the arena to cast their "reasonable doubt" into play.

You’re right the defense wouldn’t be given the opportunity to prove their Odinist theory during a trial and they’re surely not required to solve the case their client is charged with. Do the leaked photos cast doubt on the prosecution‘s case against RA, I doubt it although I expect the ex-D would’ve liked everyone who viewed them to think so, including a future jury.

I was just reading an article which unfortunately I can’t find again. Basically the talking head said we may never know the true reason the attorneys withdrew. It said attorneys might withdraw using an artificial reason/excuse IF the true reason would be prejudicial to the defendants right to a fair trial.

That would make the Baldwin’s leak intentionally staged, so much for “snookered and abused”. Seems quite drastic, not sure I’m quite ready to believe that.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Perhaps but almost all convictions are appealed. Although an appeal granted makes the news google tells me the chance of winning an appeal is very low. Then even if a case is appealed and the conviction gets thrown out, the case is still retried. There’s no guarantee that would result in a not guilty verdict, as it didn’t the first time around.

IMO it’s better for a defense attorney to just go for a not guilty verdict. Expecting a guilty verdict, then counting on an appeal would seem downright risky.

I can’t imagine how Odinism would make for an automatic appeal given it was nothing more than a unproven defense theory (ie not guilty). Juries are instructed to vote for a conviction based on the State proving the defendant is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, through introducing evidence and testimony.

I‘d think given everything that’s occurred the selection of an impartial jury will be what’s becomes most critical in some far off trial. As I noticed experts to say, they predict the new defence will be less dramatic, if so that will be a very good thing. JMO

I agree with some of what you said.

Of course, it's better for the D to go for not guilty but they had better be prepared for the alternative. We don't know what all goes along with the Odinism; so while it's probably not "the" grounds, it may support another issue. From what I've read, appeals can be very complex.

 

[MistyWaters]

I agree with some of what you said.

Of course, it's better for the D to go for not guilty but they had better be prepared for the alternative. We don't know what all goes along with the Odinism; so while it's probably not "the" grounds, it may support another issue. From what I've read, appeals can be very complex.

Yes appeal process can be complex, costly, and exhausting, can takes years. A good example but not in Indiana is the Steven Avery saga who was convicted in 2007.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Yes appeal process can be complex, costly, and exhausting, can takes years. A good example but not in Indiana is the Steven Avery saga who was convicted in 2007.

In Elkhart Co, IN, Andrew Royer spent 18 years of his life in prison for a murder that he did not commit. After fighting through sealed records, a gag order and several appeals, he was finally exonerated 2 years ago.

Appeals sometimes free the innocent.

 

[DeDee]

The only way I can make that make sense (in my own mind) is if the D wanted off the case (for any reason) and thought their withdrawal might not be granted.

Just a guess and MOO.

I don't think the D wanted to be removed from this case. Suddenly, they're no longer being paid. They were well on their way to getting their client off by means of reasonable doubt. They were steadily earning bank that has dried up. Not many ppl want to lose a payday and this one was going into 2024. Plus, if D got an acquittal for dbl felony murders charges against RA, they'd boost their rep and more likely get clients that could pay.

The unscrupulously conducted leaks seemingly blindsided Baldwin, is my opinion, att. He was betrayed bc he trusted the wrong person. It cost him his job.

Other than family, the person who was likely the most upset was Doug Carter. He kept the CS details a secret only to have them stolen and emailed disseminated. I didn't see Carter but heard he was sitting in the Jury box ready for the hearing that wasn't with steam coming out of his ears.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Isn't that when she muttered sonething under her breath?

I didn’t hear or see that.

 

[Falling Down]

The ex-defence was appointed almost exactly a year ago. A new team having to start from scratch suggests the ex-team didn’t accomplish anything in an entire year.

Attorneys: Resignation of Richard Allen’s defense team could result in yearlong delay in Delphi murders trial

The trial is now on hold after special judge Frances Gull announced public defenders Bradley Rozzi and Andrew Baldwin stepped away from the case.

www.wthr.com

“I think six to nine months would be highly unrealistic for [Allen] to receive a fair trial, even with two lawyers,” said Moore. “I still think a year, or a year-and-a-half or two years in that timeframe is a more realistic timeframe because they are essentially starting from scratch.”….

…..It’s almost like the case starts over. They have to review every single piece of evidence that was reviewed by prior counsel, just to see where things are and what defenses are viable,” Jackson-Lindsay said. “If you think about how long it took for us to get to this point, I think you can add that exact amount of time in terms of guessing a trial date.” ..”

Sadly, I believe this to be true. All they "argued" over in court this year was the warrant, RA living in "POW" conditions at Westville, and some other random stuff. Nowhere have I seen them file motions to throw out any evidence LE already had.

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

I still think the Odinism is a red herring. If there were a group of cult white supremacists in the park area that day, they would have shown up on cell phone data and security cam video, not to mention witnesses reporting more people on the trail.

As for employees in the prison system having Odinism insignia on their uniforms, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard anyone doing in the criminal justice system. All of those people wearing it and those who approved it should be looking for new jobs. But that's Indiana, I guess.

Agree with all of this. I think maybe this Odinism nonsense was implying a coverup by LE. Meaning they were overlooking people who were supposedly there, because of some grand conspirscy or some such.

Indiana prisons are a mess, very corrupt (overall), etc. Westville had IN National Guard in there during the C19 mess, and county jails have had horrendous turnover in recent years, as well. Would not want that job.

JMO

 

[mrjitty]

I think it's important that we must remember that the Defence doesn't need to "prove the Odinism" theory in a court of law ... they just need to use it to cast doubt upon the prosecution's case and evidence. They aren't required to prove anything as that is the prosecution's burden.

The Prosecution will need to prove it's "not true/applicable" if that's what the Defence throws into the arena to cast their "reasonable doubt" into play.

While the defence is never under an obligation to prove innocence, they do need at least an evidential foundation for their claims

This means while they don't need to 'prove' an Odinism angle, they can't just speculate one into existence. They need to introduce at least enough evidence so the theory is in play as a real possibility

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Two news reports, what a difference one little word

“On Thursday, an attorney representing Baldwin said in a memorandum that authorities were investigating the leak and that there are three suspected “disseminators” who “betrayed” Baldwin. Those three allegedly gained access to the case documents, which were kept “locked in a room or a locked fireproof file cabinet.”

Creative usage of quotes that can completely mislead the reader. Similar to the memorandum.

 

[MistyWaters]

Creative usage of quotes that can completely mislead the reader. Similar to the memorandum.

This reminded me of one of McLelands objections for cameras in the courtroom, to which IMO is a very valid concern. Both words and short clips, it’s amazing how the context can be totally altered by little snips here and there.

Prosecutor shares ‘serious concerns’ with motion to allow broadcast cameras in courtroom of Delphi murders court proceedings

CARROLL COUNTY, Ind. — Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland has filed a motion opposing a request to broadcast the trial for Delphi murder suspect Richard Allen, citing “serious …

fox59.com

“That allowing cameras in such highly-publicized and sensationalized case runs the risk of creating circus atmosphere both in person and online, where 15-second clips taken out of context can race around the world in seconds, giving an inaccurate impression of the actual evidence and conduct of court proceedings,” McLeland said.”

 

[sunshineray]

I didn’t hear or see that.

I went back and played it again, more like just an exasperated breathy "um" at around 1:25

Judge Gull announces cancellation of Richard Allen hearing

Allen County Judge Frances Gull announced Richard Allen's hearing on Oct. 19, 2023, was canceled after his attorneys filed a motion to withdraw.

www.wthr.com

 

[sunshineray]

I still think the Odinism is a red herring. If there were a group of cult white supremacists in the park area that day, they would have shown up on cell phone data and security cam video, not to mention witnesses reporting more people on the trail.

As for employees in the prison system having Odinism insignia on their uniforms, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard anyone doing in the criminal justice system. All of those people wearing it and those who approved it should be looking for new jobs. But that's Indiana, I guess.

Yeah I don't know what is up with that facility. There's an affidavit that was posted here recently. Just unreal. IMO

"The state, using a signed affidavit by Westville Correctional Facility warden John Galipeau, acknowledged that officers within the facility wore Odinist patches, but have since been told to not wear them."

State claims Richard Allen not in danger despite officers wearing Odinism badges

In Thursday's response, the state said the "colorful and dramatic" request from the defense in not correct and there is no threat to Richard Allen in the Westville Correctional Facility.

www.wrtv.com

 

[Bergmann]

Seems like former D is not the only ones capable of conjuring wild theories and magical thinking... lol!

Should we consider NMcL a clown now too?

 

[imstilla.grandma]

 

[FrostedGlass]

That information never came out in the other reports.
I was going to post the transcription but there are words missing from it.

What he says from the 20-30 second mm is not in the transcript. Has it been edited out?