IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #172

[katydid23]

“AB arrived with counsel”

Was DH present or had he just filed an appearance to submit the memorandum? I didn’t think he was actually in the courthouse until 10/31.

Imo it’s an ambush because they hadn’t been given legal notice that would allow them to defend themselves or even discuss specifics with their client. I think everyone agrees they were expecting some development regarding a DQ that day but not that it would happen that day.

Why wouldn't they expect it to begin that day? She already told them to stop working on the case. They knew there was talk of a DQ. Did they think it was going to be a regular, normal status hearing given they were already told all of the above?

 

[katydid23]

RBBM Is that the offense where he pushed the wrong button on his phone?

Yes, but it is more than just pushing the wrong button.

There were two people with same first name. He sent it to the wrong person because HE NEVER CHECKED THE LAST NAME.

So it was not just about 'oops, wrong button]---it was because he didn't take the time and respect necessary to make sure he was sending the classified info to the right person. That is negligence.

 

[zh0r4]

SCION GRANTED the RELATOR'S RESPONSE TO RESPONDENT'S OBJECTIONS (Smith, Wieneke, & Cook, filed 11/21/2023; granted 11/22/2023)

bbm

“On October 30, 2023, the relator, by counsel, petitioned for a writ of mandamus and prohibition, seeking relief under the Rules of Procedure for Original Actions. On November 16, 2023, Respondents, by counsel, filed a brief opposing the petition. The relator has moved to file a brief replying to the respondents' brief.

Although the Rules of Procedure for Original Actions do not afford a relator the right to file a reply after the respondents have opposed issuance of a writ, the Court retains the authority to permit deviation from the rules and chooses to do so here.

Being duly advised, the Court GRANTS the relator's "Motion for Leave to Respond to Respondent's Objections." The Clerk is instructed to file the relator's "Response to Respondent's Objections" as of the date of this order. Done at Indianapolis, Indiana, on 11/22/2023“


To clarify: My understanding is usually when you are asking the appellate court for permission, you file your brief with a short proposed motion (you don’t ask before filing). SCION GRANTING the motion means they are allowing it to be heard?/on the record. If the motion wasn’t granted, it would be stricken from the record via SCION.

EDIT: typo

Sources:
(Case# 23S-OR-00302)

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

PDF of RELATOR'S RESPONSE TO RESPONDENT'S OBJECTIONS
Smith, Wieneke, & Cook, filed 11/21/2023; granted 11/22/2023
Microsoft Word - Relator's Response to Respondent's Objections 4864-0331-9953 v.1.docx | PDF Host

 

[mrjitty]

Would like to see the victims' family file a lawsuit against the persons responsible (which I won't name, however, 1st one begins with AB, who as an officer of the court knows better than to leave evidence unlocked and not put away in a secure place and out of view. Glad to see this horrible ex-defense off the case who imo, had nothing else, so they created a horrible narrative of the crime scene in order to place a seed in the minds of people to create doubt in their client (at the time). Don't know if RA is guilty, but it sure looks that way because the defense "freaked" out. I will wait until trial to see what the evidence is. moo


From the article:

On Oct. 9, Westerman reportedly contacted Baldwin and admitted to being behind the leak. Westerman told Baldwin that he had stopped by the law firm’s office and found evidence photos related to the Delphi case spread out in Baldwin’s conference room. Westerman admitted to using his phone to take photographs of the evidence and then sharing those photos with a Fishers man. Investigators determined the Fishers man then shared the evidence with a man from Texas who, in turn, forwarded the evidence to various YouTube and podcast creators.

According to court documents, the Fishers man ended up taking his own life after being questioned by police about the evidence leak.

Westerman admitted in a sworn statement that Baldwin did not give him permission to take photographs of the crime scene evidence he found in the conference room of the law firm’s office. He also said Baldwin was not present in the conference room when he took the photos.

Brad Rozzi, the other half of Allen’s original defense team, called Westerman’s actions “theft” due to him not having permission from either of the attorneys to take photographs of the evidence let alone share the sensitive information with others.

Yes I wouldn’t be surprised to see them take a run at ABs PI

 

[mrjitty]

Yes one of those Disqualifications or Sanctions. Not just Sanctions. Which was the point I was making they were aware that both were possibilities. I mean they wanted sanctions. DH asked for 20 hours I believe so roughly $2000.
But perhaps DH also didn’t know the scope or totality or what the judge was concerned when he filed the memorandum.
And correct. A hearing wasn’t scheduled because both attorneys made a different choice in chambers.

IMO this lack of clarity shows that it was all a hot mess procedurally.

The defence brought a heavy hitter, DH to court, presumably to present his arguments in court. The prosecution seemingly had witnesses to present evidence relating to their investigation of the matter. But the Judge allowed neither of those things to happen. Rather she stated she would deliver a ruling and told them what it was. She made her mind up before they all walked into chambers that day.

Personally I suspect conduct would have to be pretty outrageous before she could summarily dismiss them like that. As others have posted up thread, there appear to be only two explicit grounds for which you can get booted - are there others? Maybe SCOIN will give guidance on that

 

[mrjitty]

I absolutely believe they will and I will also be curious to see if he repeated basically the same story each time. Even the Defense conceded that RA had implicated himself in the crimes, that was during the hearing where they were going to talk about a transfer and possibly bail. June IIRC?

MOO

This is where I frequently give myself the advice not to bother following any of the pre-trial procedure and just tune in for the trial because so much of what we spend days discussing pre-trial turns out to be incorrect or incomplete. Then of course I don't follow my own advice!

 

[mrjitty]

Bail hearing are you joking?

He is stood accused of murdering 2 children so bail should not be an option in a million years. Who in their right mind wants a double charged child killer on the streets?

He hasn’t go into a local supermarket and shoplifted some pick n mix here. He has been charged with the most heinous of crimes and the right place is jail until a trial.


IMO

Call me an old school liberal?

To my mind its bizarre that a citizen can be held 2 years pre trial based only on an untested AA. Shouldn't there be at least a prelim / bail hearing to assess the strength of evidence and whether there is a case to answer?

Obviously I understand that part of the reason a bail hearing hasn't happened is the defence suspect they would not be successful in a bail hearing.

 

[Batgirl 2.0]

Call me an old school liberal?

To my mind its bizarre that a citizen can be held 2 years pre trial based only on an untested AA. Shouldn't there be at least a prelim / bail hearing to assess the strength of evidence and whether there is a case to answer?

Obviously I understand that part of the reason a bail hearing hasn't happened is the defence suspect they would not be successful in a bail hearing.

With all due respect, how do you think things would play out for RA if he were released on bail?

 

[mrjitty]

With all due respect, how do you think things would play out for RA if he were released on bail?

Maybe not great!

 

[FrostedGlass]

Attorney Shay Hughes does a deep dive into the Westerman charge;
here is just one comment. There's more at his link.

Shay Hughes@publicdefender_
Mitch Westerman was charged w/ 1 count of conversion. The PC affidavit states Westerman “used his cellular phone to take photographs of photographs, which were in Baldwin’s conference room area.” For conversion, the State must prove beyond a reasonable doubt 1) Westerman 2) knowingly or intentionally 3) exerted unauthorized control 4) over property of Baldwin.

But I’m having trouble coming to the conclusion that such conduct even amounts to conversion. “Exert control over property” means to obtain, take, carry, drive, lead away, conceal, abandon, sell, convey, encumber, or possess property, or to secure, transfer, or extend a right to property. Absent from this definition is any act resembling photography. Given such an act is not addressed w/ the definition, there are related issues regarding intent.

Moreover, I could not locate any Indiana authority in support of the State’s theory of prosecution. Nevertheless, in the context of a vehicle, the Court of Appeals held that mere presence as a passenger in a stolen car did not constitute control to support a conviction for conversion. Irvin v. State, 501 NE2d 1139, 1142 (Ind. Ct. App. 1986). More specifically, the court rejected the State’s argument that occupying space inside the vehicle constitutes control. Thus, if occupying property does not constitute control, it logically follows that taking a photo of property also does not constitute control. #RichardAllen #Delphi #DelphiMurders
9:32 PM · Nov 22, 2023
1,577 Views

https://twitter.com/x/status/1727515489910341912

 

[Salah11]

Call me an old school liberal?

To my mind its bizarre that a citizen can be held 2 years pre trial based only on an untested AA. Shouldn't there be at least a prelim / bail hearing to assess the strength of evidence and whether there is a case to answer?

Obviously I understand that part of the reason a bail hearing hasn't happened is the defence suspect they would not be successful in a bail hearing.

Just say by some miracle he got bail , who wants to live next door to him?

If you had children or do have Children would you want him living next door to you?

I wouldn’t let him within 200 miles of a underage girl with what he has been charged with.

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

Just say by some miracle he got bail , who wants to live next door to him?

If you had children or do have Children would you want him living next door to you?

I wouldn’t let him within 200 miles of a underage girl with what he has been charged with.

MOO

Well again these are good points as to why we have pre-trial detention but I prefer the court to make that decision in a hearing where the evidence is given the once over. Locking someone up for 2 years pretrial based only on a read through of the AA seems wild to me.

And again I do understand that the defence can call for such a hearing, or file a speedy trial motion. But given the circumstances, they can't really do those things.

 

[Salah11]

Well again these are good points as to why we have pre-trial detention but I prefer the court to make that decision in a hearing where the evidence is given the once over. Locking someone up for 2 years pretrial based only on a read through of the AA seems wild to me.

And again I do understand that the defence can call for such a hearing, or file a speedy trial motion. But given the circumstances, they can't really do those things.

Considering the man has confessed multiple times and has said he was dressed the same as Bridge guy and can be placed on that bridge seconds before the girls appear the best place for him is Jail. His team obviously also know he wouldn’t get Bail which is why they haven’t attempted it because it’s laughable considering what he has been charged with.

IMO MOOO all that jazz!!

 

[mrjitty]

Considering the man has confessed multiple times and has said he was dressed the same as Bridge guy and can be placed on that bridge seconds before the girls appear the best place for him is Jail. His team obviously also know he wouldn’t get Bail which is why they haven’t attempted it because it’s laughable considering what he has been charged with.

IMO MOOO all that jazz!!

That's how I lean as well - i'd just like the oversight

 

[Niner]

MW is being charged

State of Indiana v. Mitchell Thomas Westerman​

Case Number	41D03-2311-CM-001119
Court	Johnson Superior Court 3
Type	CM - Criminal Misdemeanor
Filed	11/21/2023
Status	11/21/2023 , Pending (active)
Reference	Case cross references Prosecutor Case Management Number 41-DM2704607 Police Agency Number 23ISPC016405

11/21/2023	Case Opened as a New Filing
11/21/2023	Case Filed Electronically Added By EFile Manager
11/21/2023	Appearance Filed Appearance For Party: State of Indiana File Stamp: 11/21/2023
11/21/2023	Motion Filed Motion to Seal Warrant and Informations Filed By: State of Indiana File Stamp: 11/21/2023
11/21/2023	Notice of Exclusion of Confidential Information Access to Court Records (Exclusion) Filed By: State of Indiana File Stamp: 11/21/2023
11/21/2023	Information Filed Information Filed By: State of Indiana File Stamp: 11/21/2023
11/21/2023	Probable Cause Affidavit Filed Westerman PCA 112023.pdf Filed By: State of Indiana File Stamp: 11/21/2023
11/21/2023	Order Issued Order Sealing Arrest Warrant and Charging Informations Confidential entered. Judicial Officer: Cummins, Douglas B. Order Signed: 11/21/2023
11/21/2023	Probable Cause Found: Order Issued Order Determing Probable Cause and Request for Warrant entered. Court set bond in the amount of $1,000.00 Surety or $250.00 cash. Clerk is directed to issue a Warrant.cd Judicial Officer: Cummins, Douglas B. Order Signed: 11/21/2023
11/21/2023	Warrant or Writ of Attmnt for the Body of a Person Issued
11/22/2023	Automated Paper Notice Issued to Parties Order Issued ---- 11/21/2023 : Mitchell Thomas Westerman Probable Cause Found: Order Issued ---- 11/21/2023 : Mitchell Thomas Westerman
11/22/2023	Automated ENotice Issued to Parties Order Issued ---- 11/21/2023 : Lindsey Holden-Kay;Lance Dalton Hamner Probable Cause Found: Order Issued ---- 11/21/2023 : Lindsey Holden-Kay;Lance Dalton Hamner
11/22/2023	Motion Filed Motion to Unseal Arrest Warrant Filed By: State of Indiana File Stamp: 11/22/2023
11/22/2023	Order Granting Motion to Unseal Public Record Judicial Officer: Cummins, Douglas B. Order Signed: 11/22/2023

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

View attachment 463082View attachment 463083View attachment 463084
Based on this limited info it doesn’t seem that the investigation has found anything different than what B&R have said.

Edit- adding charge info.

Charges​

Hide all charge details

35-43-4-3(a)/MA: Conversion
	Statute 35-43-4-3(a) Degree MA

(a) A person who knowingly or intentionally exerts unauthorized control over property of another person commits criminal conversion, a Class A misdemeanor.

Section 35-43-4-3 - Conversion, Ind. Code § 35-43-4-3 | Casetext Search + Citator

Read Section 35-43-4-3 - Conversion, Ind. Code § 35-43-4-3, see flags on bad law, and search Casetext’s comprehensive legal database

casetext.com

Hopefully you all do NOT want me to keep track of this one...

 

[Jade]

RA attys weren't the ones who were intent on keeping him in prison, the mental health condition worries appeared to be from the other side. He's been in there since November; surely they would have known by April if he was having mental issues or not.

He hasn't looked fat and healthy in any of the quick views the media has been able to catch of him. His current look is kind of bad for Westville, IMO. Fat and sassy would be helpful for them.

As I said the interest is in keeping the alleged perp alive to face trial, imo.

The videos I refer to are, of course, prior to his arrest and confinement.

Not the poor pitiful me surly look he has sunk himself into.

We see now the ugly twisted grouchy agressively selfish face as a glimpse into what the girls feared that horrible day.

Don't be mistaken his former team cultivated that enforcing it by saying the puny little thing couldn't even cross a creek thats half as deep as he is tall. He's incapable they say.

Losing weight and slumping and simpering by RA fits their strategy.

The video I refer to shows the RA at the time not the self involved given up becouse they got me he's into now.

The current look has nothing to do with Westwood. RA has been classified as very healthy.

His weight is now correct to his body frame.

His expression and attitude is expressing what they want.
Poor RA look how pitiful look how sorry he feels for himself he was pudgy now he is healthy. Poor guy.

No fat and sassy now like the stout fireplug he was before that would show he was perfectly capable of scaring young girls not what his former defense wanted at all.

All imo

 

[Cyber sleuth]

The Murder Sheer discussed the arrest of MW on a podcast yesterday. I found it an interesting listen given they had direct knowledge of the protected discovery and the privileged strategy shared.


The Delphi Murders: The Arrest of Mitchell Westerman

 

[Cyber sleuth]

As I said the interest is in keeping the alleged perp alive to face trial, imo.

The video I refer to shows the RA at the time not the self involved given up becouse they got me he's into now.

The current look has nothing to do with Westwood. RA has been classified as very healthy.

His weight is now correct to his body frame.
No fat and sassy now like the stout fireplug he was before that would show he was perfectly capable of scaring young girls not what his former defense wanted at all.

All imo

RSBM/BBM

I agree with your sentiments above
I believe Allen was a heavy drinker from testimony given by bar owner and neighbors.

They frequently saw him in his driveway smoking cigarettes and drinking beer after work, they said.

A man has been arrested and charged with murder in the 2017 killings of 2 teen girls in Indiana, authorities say

A man has been arrested in the case of the 2017 killings of Abigail Williams, 13, and Liberty German, 14, in Delphi, Indiana, authorities said Monday.

amp.cnn.com

Bob Matlock, who owned JC's Bar and Grill until he closed it late last year, can't fathom how the regular patron he knew ended up in this position.
Allen and his wife came in three to four times a week, laughed with the other regulars, partook in the occasional somber conversation about what happened to the teens and how awful it must be for their families.

Delphi murder suspect Richard Allen: Indiana town wants answers about man who 'blended in'

Five and a half years after two teen girls were slain, Delphi, Indiana resident Richard Allen has been arrested in the case. His community is shocked.

www.indystar.com

According to court documents obtained by Fox 59, police were called to Allen’s home in Mexico, Indiana, at around 3:30 a.m. on June 18, 2015, after a “domestic incident” report. The documents indicate that Allen’s wife contacted police after he became drunk and belligerent, ending with her taking him to the hospital for medical evaluation. Police said they were contacted to keep the peace and no one was arrested for the incident.

Richard Allen: Accused Delphi Killer Held on $20M Bond as Previous Drunken ‘Domestic Incident’ Emerges

*EDITOR’S NOTE: Fox 59 reports that “despite court records showing a judge issuing a $20 million bond for Richard Allen,” the state prosecutor and the Carroll County sheriff say Allen was not issued a bond.* Accused Delphi killer Richard Allen was given a bond amount Wednesday as reports of a...

www.crimeonline.com

An alcoholic can lose a significant amount of weight once clean. I had a close relative that would easily shed 30-40 pounds within a few months when sober.
I think RA is at an appropriate weight/BMI for his height.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Also I found this link when I was searching for links to RA’s drinking habits and found it odd.

One of my servers was telling me that he wouldn’t speak much; his wife would order the food and that they would split it,” said Chandler Underhill, General Manager at the Brick & Mortar Pub. “He didn’t really speak.”

Investigators to announce charges versus Delphi murders suspect

May have been discussed 100 threads ago but I thought it was worth bringing forward. Given the suspects voice had been broadcast repeatedly.
I wonder if he was always quiet or if was something that started after February 2017.

 

[LaurelTedytamer]

Justice for Abby and Libby and a fair trial for RA.

Happy Thanksgiving fellow Delphi websleuths!

Hopefully after this holiday decisions are made and the trial proceeds in a way we all focus on evidence rather then procedures.