Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #105

[newredtabby]

Actually the sudden change in investigative tactics makes me more optimistic. LE isn’t just going to totally switch tactics for no reason. After putting OBG’s face out there for 2 years I’m thinking they got something pretty good to switch the way they did. Asking for witnesses isn’t desperation to me, it’s trying to solidify what they’ve got. JMO

LE may well have changed tactics because they were out of leads and tips for tactic #1. At that point, the only choices are letting the case go cold, or throwing more spaghetti at the wall to see if any sticks.

 

[MistyWaters]

Would it be possible to post that link again. It says that document expires after 2 hours. Hope I've done this right. First post.

Welcome to Websleuths! Here’s the link and the case #s. If the link is expired, within each of the files you’ll notice “Order issued” appearing in blue which will open the document seeking the respective info from Google(Abby) and Apple(Libby).

Case Search - MyCase

In Re: the Estate of Abigail Joyce Williams
Case Number 08C01-1802-ES-000003
https://public.courts.in.gov/mycase...TmGlDE7utzuvS9JumrT8sx_0WA02PgwqttIKRnmqcZXd0


In Re: the Estate of LIBERTY ROSE LYNN GERMAN
Case Number 08C01-1710-ES-000002
https://public.courts.in.gov/mycase...GKWTBdWqo3koD7k020UWbiZ0w-fZbMQMcVjFK4lJk7nC0

 

[MistyWaters]

It’s not clear where the kids were, but she said when she dropped them off. I’m thinking this was information gathered after the fact and maybe KG didn’t actually see the 10-20 people. It’s in the second KG interview with Renner. Then it sounds like she said there were kids there even earlier, but there was a lull in activity during the crime. The interview is a little muffled with this 2nd statement so don’t quote me.

That’s what I recall Libby’s grandmother saying on DrPhil as well....there were kids there earlier but there just happened to be a lull in who was around at the time Libby and Abby went there.

 

[Thelastleg]

Welcome to Websleuths! Here’s the link and the case #s. If the link is expired, within each of the files you’ll notice “Order issued” appearing in blue which will open the document seeking the respective info from Google(Abby) and Apple(Libby).

Case Search - MyCase

In Re: the Estate of Abigail Joyce Williams
Case Number 08C01-1802-ES-000003
https://public.courts.in.gov/mycase...TmGlDE7utzuvS9JumrT8sx_0WA02PgwqttIKRnmqcZXd0


In Re: the Estate of LIBERTY ROSE LYNN GERMAN
Case Number 08C01-1710-ES-000002
https://public.courts.in.gov/mycase...GKWTBdWqo3koD7k020UWbiZ0w-fZbMQMcVjFK4lJk7nC0

Thank you for being so helpful. I'm feeling welcome already.

 

[TL4S]

Many people were aware of the bridge before the murders, but had never seen it in person. Railroad and industrial artifact fans from far and wide knew about it. It's the 2nd tallest bridge here in Indiana, and just happens to be a very old railroad trestle/viaduct which has withstood time, and I wouldn't doubt there have been efforts to have it torn down.

I've driven right around the area in question, the bridge is not easy to find just driving by there. The spot where the girls were dropped off is easy to miss, even driving at 35 mph on C.R. 300. Considering the latest PC, it appears that LE believe the vehicle seen at the old CPS building is involved in the case. So, the perp/BG would have known about the trail head by the Freedom Bridge over IN 25, and would have known that if he parked at the abandoned building, he could walk a short distance, get on the main trail, and could walk a ways and be at the bridge. Why didn't he park on the other side of IN 25? We all know the answer. Everything about BG's movements make sense to me, the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. Each section of his path(s) that day scream "efficient", to me. Quick, no wasted time or energy. No reason to waste time walking longer distances, unless he was going out of his way to conceal himself, perhaps after the murders.

Not only do I believe he knew where the bridge is located, he'd timed every part of his plan/fantasy/what have you. I would venture to guess BG timed the walk from the trail head to the bridge, the walk across the 850 foot bridge, and the walk from the SE end to the creek, across from the CS, which is a short distance covered in a matter of several minutes, according to YouTube videos I've seen. The distance from the SE end to the CS is much shorter than the length of the bridge. The distance from the slight bend in the trail, to the NW end of the bridge, is maybe 800 feet. So BG had to A) Get the girls off and away from the SE end of the bridge, and B) Down to the creek, as quickly as possible. That way, line-of-sight, nobody would have seen the group in the gorge, even one person or a group if they were on the trail.

JMO

-FD

I agree that the location he left them was about as perfect for not being seen as any on the trail. But if he'd planned the entire thing, why not park on the road to the south and wait at the end of the bridge to ambush them? That would be most efficient, and there'd be less risk of somebody seeing him before, during, or after. And how'd he know the girls were going to the bridge to begin with?

Some other questions in my mind: Why park so he'd be forced to walk the entire trail, plus the bridge? Even if he took the woods back to his car, there's a lot of area he'd be visible. If he planned to murder beside a creek, knowing he might get wet and/or bloody, why park in a parking lot along a major highway where people could plainly see him getting back into his car?

Regardless if that car is even linked to BG, IMO, there's no scenario that points to a planned attack. JMO, of course. I'm glad I'm not LE having to put this puzzle together.

 

[PaulaDC]

In a murder crime the most likely scenario is checked out first. Everybody knows who gets checked out first. It makes me worry that this is why the family needed time to comprehend the new news. Has LE come full circle? Could people actually be in denial? My mind is wandering here. Moo

 

[TL4S]

I know this is an unpopular idea, but if BG had any forethought into these murders, or even if he just saw the girls dropped off from the road and suddenly decided to go after them, than the cemetery seems the most logical place to park. He could walk the woods to the north end of the bridge to either get them there, or follow and corner them on the other side, take them across the creek, and be back to his car almost immediately. It's just making a short loop, and his parking spot may even have determined where he led them. IDK

Honestly, I've been to small town cemeteries like that and have never seen anybody else there. If I were the one doing the crime, I'd feel pretty comfortable parking in the back for an hour or so without being noticed.

Attachment: blue X is start point, red X is end point

 

[janewall]

It depends on what are the repercussions of telling a secret.

If it is about someone’s having an affair, oh surely. I give people 30 seconds to blab it out. Even about own affair. Think Monica L.

If it is about own crime that will 100% provide the people committing it life sentence, and maybe death penalty, all involved might keep silence.

I think a group can keep a secret. I think the secret will erode trust within the group, however, because when anything goes wrong for any of them, or for the group collectively, each will suspect that the others are not capable of keeping the secret under stress, or if the right offer to disclose it is made.

And when trust erodes among people who are not averse to violence, very bad things can happen.

 

[Vivyinsect]

I’ve been out of the loop for a minute, but has anyone suggested that the girls may have been falsely lured by a decoy playing a younger boy on Snapchat? I know at that age I would have been easy prey. This could answer some questions of the leads shifting a bit. Silver lining side-note, 1993 murder of Angie Housman was solved this week...never give up hope.

 

[TheVisual]

I know this is an unpopular idea, but if BG had any forethought into these murders, or even if he just saw the girls dropped off from the road and suddenly decided to go after them, than the cemetery seems the most logical place to park. He could walk the woods to the north end of the bridge to either get them there, or follow and corner them on the other side, take them across the creek, and be back to his car almost immediately. It's just making a short loop, and his parking spot may even have determined where he led them. IDK

Honestly, I've been to small town cemeteries like that and have never seen anybody else there. If I were the one doing the crime, I'd feel pretty comfortable parking in the back for an hour or so without being noticed.

Attachment: blue X is start point, red X is end point

This is what I too envisioned long ago. That BG might not have been seen much because of the way he got to the head of the bridge to go across. But where did the girls encounter the "creepy" guy?

 

[Charlot123]

I’ve been out of the loop for a minute, but has anyone suggested that the girls may have been falsely lured by a decoy playing a younger boy on Snapchat? I know at that age I would have been easy prey. This could answer some questions of the leads shifting a bit. Silver lining side-note, 1993 murder of Angie Housman was solved this week...never give up hope.

Snapchat, IG, or any other SM account for young people. There are so many! Only kids can name are possible SMs for other kids. And not necessarily it was an Internet romance, simply, an offer of some activity together might have been gladly accepted. The moment I realized that Delphi had no mall for kids to hang out, I thought, kids might get so bored there. And Libby and Abby were active girls with many interests.

(The silver lining, a 52-year old case was recently solved using genealogy.

52-year-old Seattle murder case is the oldest ever to be solved using genealogy)

 

[TL4S]

This is what I too envisioned long ago. That BG might not have been seen much because of the way he got to the head of the bridge to go across. But where did the girls encounter the "creepy" guy?

After the most recent stuff coming out, maybe they were talking about him on the bridge?

 

[Lmustang89]

I’ve been out of the loop for a minute, but has anyone suggested that the girls may have been falsely lured by a decoy playing a younger boy on Snapchat? I know at that age I would have been easy prey. This could answer some questions of the leads shifting a bit. Silver lining side-note, 1993 murder of Angie Housman was solved this week...never give up hope.

**Maybe the snap chat photo of the BG is the younger sketch that was just released. They took the photo from Abbey's snapchat and turned it into the 2nd younger looking sketch. The first sketch is still the BG (just him, he is older than the snap chat photo - impersonating). Maybe other snapchat friends have seen that photo and know more about that "PERSON"

 

[FreshEyes]

**Maybe the snap chat photo of the BG is the younger sketch that was just released. They took the photo from Abbey's snapchat and turned it into the 2nd younger looking sketch. The first sketch is still the BG (just him, he is older than the snap chat photo - impersonating). Maybe other snapchat friends have seen that photo and know more about that "PERSON"

If they had his photo they would have released that and not a police artist sketch.
My opinion; this was a crime of opportunity and the girls didn’t know him. They may have seen him briefly on the trail going to the bridge but that’s all. He saw the opportunity and acted on his sick desires. That’s what makes this crime so hard to solve; the randomness. .
- opinion only

 

[missingm]

I know this is an unpopular idea, but if BG had any forethought into these murders, or even if he just saw the girls dropped off from the road and suddenly decided to go after them, than the cemetery seems the most logical place to park. He could walk the woods to the north end of the bridge to either get them there, or follow and corner them on the other side, take them across the creek, and be back to his car almost immediately. It's just making a short loop, and his parking spot may even have determined where he led them. IDK

Honestly, I've been to small town cemeteries like that and have never seen anybody else there. If I were the one doing the crime, I'd feel pretty comfortable parking in the back for an hour or so without being noticed.

Attachment: blue X is start point, red X is end point

I agree that he probably had a vehicle on the dirt road / driveway or at the cemetery. I wonder if he could have ridden a motorcycle. It would be easier to hide. Plus, in the image (that discussion thread is closed) it appears to me like he might have some sort of facemask / baclava pulled down around his neck.

something like this perhaps.

 

[TL4S]

I agree that he probably had a vehicle on the dirt road / driveway or at the cemetery. I wonder if he could have ridden a motorcycle. It would be easier to hide. Plus, in the image (that discussion thread is closed) it appears to me like he might have some sort of facemask / baclava pulled down around his neck.

something like this perhaps.

I can't really tell from the video what he has going on around his neck. A motorcycle is always a possibility, especially since it was a nice day for the season. I'm sure people might remember seeing a motorcycle along that road, simply because you don't see them as often as a car. I've wondered the same thing about a 4-wheeler or other type ATV. It's all just a guess.

 

[Boxer]

The reporter asked Carter a couple times if the case was close to getting solved. The first time he started in the direction of the 42,000 tips and she said she wasn’t asking about tips, was there going to be an arrest soon. Carter’s reply was the case was further ahead than two years ago and then he went off in the direction of him not believing any case is ever cold (your first paragraph).

Unfortunately he didn’t offer much in the way of optimism. It seems that “one tip” identifying the killer is what they’re still looking for.

I agree that the location he left them was about as perfect for not being seen as any on the trail. But if he'd planned the entire thing, why not park on the road to the south and wait at the end of the bridge to ambush them? That would be most efficient, and there'd be less risk of somebody seeing him before, during, or after. And how'd he know the girls were going to the bridge to begin with?

Some other questions in my mind: Why park so he'd be forced to walk the entire trail, plus the bridge? Even if he took the woods back to his car, there's a lot of area he'd be visible. If he planned to murder beside a creek, knowing he might get wet and/or bloody, why park in a parking lot along a major highway where people could plainly see him getting back into his car?

Regardless if that car is even linked to BG, IMO, there's no scenario that points to a planned attack. JMO, of course. I'm glad I'm not LE having to put this puzzle together.

I can't really tell from the video what he has going on around his neck. A motorcycle is always a possibility, especially since it was a nice day for the season. I'm sure people might remember seeing a motorcycle along that road, simply because you don't see them as often as a car. I've wondered the same thing about a 4-wheeler or other type ATV. It's all just a guess.

BG leaving east on CR 300, south even on CR 625 sound like a planned crime.
Parking at CPS sounds more like a a crime of opportunity, followed by a mad dash to get away with it.

 

[tresir2012]

I agree with that sentiment. However, Carter did not say they were changing tactics. He said they were changing strategy. Whether that is due to the fuzzy way he communicates, or said that way intentionally, of a difference of no consequence.....I just do not know.

He also said they were onto something early on didn't he? I am wondering if they are looking again at internet connections or anything else like that. Initially LE said something like (paraphrase) "watch what your kids are up to". Could they be re-examining contacts if they are going back to a 2 day old sketch from the very beginning of the investigation?
MOO.

 

[Tiger Stripes]

It could be that the evidence they have cannot be used in court, but I have no guess as to what that could be -- maybe a witness who now cannot be found, or one who is now deceased, or one who would refuse to testify in court, etc. , and LE does not have it on tape, or there is something wrong with the recording, IDK.

BB&IM (from @borndem's quote, above)

What if...the presently-elusive "one tip" could simply be one person, knowledgeable of the suspect's location/nefarious activities on Feb. 13, 2017 who could simply corroborate that information? And (a huge "and" here) what if...that one person were one of the suspect's parents who (interesting to ponder) very well may be residing in Delphi/a nearby town. Now.

Just a crazy idea. But -- if the suspect is either an only child, or, say, one of the youngest in a family still at home, and the parents fear for their lives, their futures, etc., etc. -- and even though Supt. DC gave a wonderful assurance of "we will protect you" (should someone give LE much-needed information, or the "golden tip" [so to speak])... then maybe the parent (or, say, an immediate relative -- just making wild guesses here) is still afraid of the "endless string of consequences" (of revealing what they know -- that would instantly send the suspect to the "clink"). All MOO.

What on earth could possibly "shake up" a parent *enough* that they would even consider turning in an offspring? (I do know that it's been done before, but don't know what brought about the change of heart -- if that's what it was -- on the part of the (just tossing out an immediate relative here) parent? Anyone?

 

[sunshineray]

It’s not clear where the kids were, but she said when she dropped them off. I’m thinking this was information gathered after the fact and maybe KG didn’t actually see the 10-20 people. It’s in the second KG interview with Renner. Then it sounds like she said there were kids there even earlier, but there was a lull in activity during the crime. The interview is a little muffled with this 2nd statement so don’t quote me.

Ok thanks, I haven't watched that series of interviews yet. I also remember either BP or MP mentioning there were other kids there that day but nothing more descriptive as to exactly where, when or how many.