Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #112

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IceIce9 said:
Were searchers required to show photo ID and sign in?
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This has always bothered me. I think he was there and either didn’t have an ID or ducked out before they asked for them. He blended in with the searchers. He may have LE down a rabbit hole then poof he’s gone. Now all LE has is a car that was his out. My question is, did LE get all searcher info the night of the 13th or called for it after? I don’t think they did it that night and that’s why he blended in and then out... MOO
 
Hoosier952 said:
Maybe the second day, but I never heard for sure. The first night was not an organized search, so anyone who searched that night wouldn't necessarily be known by LE or others searching. And several searched late into the night even after the search was called off. The official search didn't start until 10am or so, I would imagine there were several already searching that morning before it became an official search.
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10am start. This makes me sick. My dogs get walked before 10am. Half of my day is over by 10am. 2 little girls are missing with no phone contact with anyone in nearly 24 hours and you think 10am is a good start time. That search should have never stopped from the night before. They should have used search dogs, search lights, called in outside LE, FBI. I wouldn’t stop looking had one of my dogs gotten loose on that trail. This makes me sick. Hindsight is on the conscience of whomever made those decisions that night. MOO
 
Pedrosmom said:
This has always bothered me. I think he was there and either didn’t have an ID or ducked out before they asked for them. He blended in with the searchers. He may have LE down a rabbit hole then poof he’s gone. Now all LE has is a car that was his out. My question is, did LE get all searcher info the night of the 13th or called for it after? I don’t think they did it that night and that’s why he blended in and then out... MOO
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LE stood down by midnight but the search continued unofficially through the night therein lies the problem. The killer could have returned and joined the search then or have been part of it all along. Could even have slipped back to the scene and left some false evidence. I really think there will be a big problem even when they catch him, as this will give the defence a field day. MOO.
 
tresir2012 said:
LE stood down by midnight but the search continued unofficially through the night therein lies the problem. The killer could have returned and joined the search then or have been part of it all along. Could even have slipped back to the scene and left some false evidence. I really think there will be a big problem even when they catch him, as this will give the defence a field day. MOO.
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I couldn't agree more with this.

MM
 
Pedrosmom said:
10am start. This makes me sick. My dogs get walked before 10am. Half of my day is over by 10am. 2 little girls are missing with no phone contact with anyone in nearly 24 hours and you think 10am is a good start time. That search should have never stopped from the night before. They should have used search dogs, search lights, called in outside LE, FBI. I wouldn’t stop looking had one of my dogs gotten loose on that trail. This makes me sick. Hindsight is on the conscience of whomever made those decisions that night. MOO
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The first night the girls got given the teenage treatment, first assumption was they were at friends and hadn't called, second that they ran away.
 
Boxer said:
The first night the girls got given the teenage treatment, first assumption was they were at friends and hadn't called, second that they ran away.
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That may be the case however
  1. No one physically saw them other than the obvious BG
  2. They posted a picture whilst they were on the Bridge
  3. DG could not raise them on the phone
  4. No family member could raise them on the phone
  5. They weren't dressed for a cold February night outside
  6. I take it friends hadn't heard from them first thing you do check with friends and the friends parents
  7. It was tricky terrain
  8. It appeared to be out of character although quite willing to be corrected on that.
    • Unless there were problems at home that we the GP are unaware of that led LE to the assumption, They were with friends or simply runaway.
All that points to two vulnerable young ladies that no one had heard from on a winters evening.

LE should have hoped for the best case scenario with friends or runaway but acted on the worst case scenario, serious injury needing urgent medical attention or as they were to find out on 14th double homicide. It is only my personal opinion nothing more. It was a bad judgement call or better said Naive.

As I say just my personal opinion
MingyMoo

Edited to reword (Acted on)
 
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The search being called off that night and not resumed until late in the morning the next day has bothered me since the beginning. But it also bothered me that the girls weren't found the first evening. It bothers me even more that it took nearly 24 hours to find them. They were not far from the bridge at all. I understand searching the trail and around the bridge/downstream in the event of a fall, but that area could have been searched pretty thoroughly in an hour or so. Looking back at news clips from the first night, it looked like there were quite a few out searching, many being interviewed saying they would search through the night. The area around the bridge and trails isn't hundreds of acres of wilderness. There wasn't a lot of foliage around in February. I want to know if anyone searched on RL's property that first evening and if anyone searched in the area around where they were found. If no one did, I want to know why. I believe RL gave permission to search that first evening, so it should have been searched. Who searched his property? Were volunteers/family allowed to search his property or only LE?

I seriously have to wonder if this case would be completely different if they would have been found early that evening. More precise TOD for alibis. Less time for the killer to get out of the area or concoct an alibi. Anyone in the area would have been on high alert that first evening for suspicious activity.

This whole case stinks.
 
MingyMoo said:
That may be the case however
  1. No one physically saw them other than the obvious BG
  2. They posted a picture whilst they were on the Bridge
  3. DG could not raise them on the phone
  4. No family member could raise them on the phone
  5. They weren't dressed for a cold February night outside
  6. I take it friends hadn't heard from them first thing you do check with friends and the friends parents
  7. It was tricky terrain
  8. It appeared to be out of character although quite willing to be corrected on that.
    • Unless there were problems at home that we the GP are unaware of that led LE to the assumption, They were with friends or simply runaway.
All that points to two vulnerable young ladies that no one had heard from on a winters evening.

LE should have hoped for the best case scenario with friends or runaway but acted on the worst case scenario, serious injury needing urgent medical attention or as they were to find out on 14th double homicide. It is only my personal opinion nothing more. It was a bad judgement call or better said Naive.

As I say just my personal opinion
MingyMoo

Edited to reword (Acted on)
Click to expand...
Hoosier952 said:
The search being called off that night and not resumed until late in the morning the next day has bothered me since the beginning. But it also bothered me that the girls weren't found the first evening. It bothers me even more that it took nearly 24 hours to find them. They were not far from the bridge at all. I understand searching the trail and around the bridge/downstream in the event of a fall, but that area could have been searched pretty thoroughly in an hour or so. Looking back at news clips from the first night, it looked like there were quite a few out searching, many being interviewed saying they would search through the night. The area around the bridge and trails isn't hundreds of acres of wilderness. There wasn't a lot of foliage around in February. I want to know if anyone searched on RL's property that first evening and if anyone searched in the area around where they were found. If no one did, I want to know why. I believe RL gave permission to search that first evening, so it should have been searched. Who searched his property? Were volunteers/family allowed to search his property or only LE?

I seriously have to wonder if this case would be completely different if they would have been found early that evening. More precise TOD for alibis. Less time for the killer to get out of the area or concoct an alibi. Anyone in the area would have been on high alert that first evening for suspicious activity.

This whole case stinks.
Click to expand...

ITA with both your posts. However, whenever this is said, usually others come on and disagree completely. Was it searched that first night? Presumably not but then why ask and get permission at 6.30 p.m. and not go straight away and search it? I don't get that at all. Did they use boats along the creek with lights that evening? If not why not? As you say, they clearly knew exactly where they were at 2.p.m. from the SC photos. MOO.
 
tresir2012 said:
ITA with both your posts. However, whenever this is said, usually others come on and disagree completely. Was it searched that first night? Presumably not but then why ask and get permission at 6.30 p.m. and not go straight away and search it? I don't get that at all. Did they use boats along the creek with lights that evening? If not why not? As you say, they clearly knew exactly where they were at 2.p.m. from the SC photos. MOO.
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Goodness me I didn't think of that you are absolutely right. The only comparison I have if my cats wander off. I ask my neighbour if I can trample all over their very overgrown field to see if I can find them I wouldn't dream of doing it without asking them.

MM
 
MingyMoo said:
That may be the case however
  1. No one physically saw them other than the obvious BG
  2. They posted a picture whilst they were on the Bridge
  3. DG could not raise them on the phone
  4. No family member could raise them on the phone
  5. They weren't dressed for a cold February night outside
  6. I take it friends hadn't heard from them first thing you do check with friends and the friends parents
  7. It was tricky terrain
  8. It appeared to be out of character although quite willing to be corrected on that.
    • Unless there were problems at home that we the GP are unaware of that led LE to the assumption, They were with friends or simply runaway.
All that points to two vulnerable young ladies that no one had heard from on a winters evening.

LE should have hoped for the best case scenario with friends or runaway but acted on the worst case scenario, serious injury needing urgent medical attention or as they were to find out on 14th double homicide. It is only my personal opinion nothing more. It was a bad judgement call or better said Naive.

As I say just my personal opinion
MingyMoo

Edited to reword (Acted on)
Click to expand...

Yes. I agree that the police were slow to realize they were faced with the worst case scenario. They had their assumptions that night. Of course due to national news the while country was watching and very surprised that the official search was called off.
 
Hoosier952 said:
The search being called off that night and not resumed until late in the morning the next day has bothered me since the beginning. But it also bothered me that the girls weren't found the first evening. It bothers me even more that it took nearly 24 hours to find them. They were not far from the bridge at all. I understand searching the trail and around the bridge/downstream in the event of a fall, but that area could have been searched pretty thoroughly in an hour or so. Looking back at news clips from the first night, it looked like there were quite a few out searching, many being interviewed saying they would search through the night. The area around the bridge and trails isn't hundreds of acres of wilderness. There wasn't a lot of foliage around in February. I want to know if anyone searched on RL's property that first evening and if anyone searched in the area around where they were found. If no one did, I want to know why. I believe RL gave permission to search that first evening, so it should have been searched. Who searched his property? Were volunteers/family allowed to search his property or only LE?

I seriously have to wonder if this case would be completely different if they would have been found early that evening. More precise TOD for alibis. Less time for the killer to get out of the area or concoct an alibi. Anyone in the area would have been on high alert that first evening for suspicious activity.

This whole case stinks.
Click to expand...

Dbm
 
susiQ said:
Yes, that is odd, ESPECIALLY after the April 22nd PC, seeing they now believe he either lives in Delphi, visits Delphi or works in Delphi. The only explanation I can come up with is that initially they took the position that this was most likely a random killing by an out-of-state killer so reoffending in the area was unlikely? HOWEVER, now that they believe the killer is local, "may be in this very room" local, I can only conclude that this was not a random attack, it was targeted, and they suspect why, and therefore do not feel everyday citizens of Delphi need to fear for their children, UNLESS, they are involved in the seedy underworld of methamphetamine and other illegal goings on. As always, JMO
ed:sp
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And someone in LE, can't remember exactly who it was, came out and said early on to make sure you know what your children are into. The way it was said made me think SM. That was my first reaction, who did they communicate with on SM that may have really been a predator.
 
somequestions said:
It has been over 2 1/2 years since this crime happened. NASA and Disney have not been able to enhance the video/audio recording on Liberty German's phone. 2 different sketches have been released of what I assume are different people that law enforcement would like to talk to. The sketches are based on eyewitness statements from witnesses who saw these people in the Monon High Bridge area that day. Neither of the sketches has worked out so far in identifying the mysterious bridge guy. Even if the people in the sketches are found, they may just be people that were out on the Monon High Bridge trail that day.

After all this time, what would you do if you were an investigator in the Delphi double murder of Abigail Williams and Liberty German? After 2 1/2 years, how would you solve the case?
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Forensics. Keep gathering samples and testing. IMO
 
susiQ said:
snipped by me
I know what I would be doing and I feel confident LE are doing the same, SINCE the April PC. I believe this is a very complicated case. I've said it many times. If it weren't, we'd be here following the trial of the killer(s). My biggest issue with this case is the direction it took from the beginning. Why? How did that come about? Did someone lie? Did many lie? Did someone skillfully steer the investigation down a dead end away from the killer(s)? It doesn't appear they initially investigated all the possible people that could have had a motive? Going down the wrong path early on likely resulted in important evidence being lost or never gathered. Much more difficult now, but certainly not impossible if they can gather enough evidence to build a solid case. Too bad, so sad they messed up, and they did. DC's demeanour at the PC was evidence of that. JMHO.

ETA: There were at least 3 LE agencies involved and by Tobe Leazenby's own words, he has felt the killer was a "local". At the April PC a number of citizens expressed that they had always felt it was a local. So WHO felt otherwise? ISP or the FBI? What convinced THEM to go the other route for 2 plus years? That's a pertinent question we will never get the answer to.

ETTA: Maybe some subterfuge going on:
trickery, intrigue, deviousness, evasion, deceit, deception, dishonesty, duplicity, guile, cunning, "craft" . I think I'm done now :)
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I think they went with OBG because more people saw and described him, simple as that. It was volume over a lone witness. Whomever that OBG sketch was must have left the immediate area and moved on after hearing about the murders. The acually killer remained in Delphi, in plain sight, because his life is there, unlike the "bum" type OBG who left the local area because he wasn't so attached. JMO
 
MingyMoo said:
That may be the case however
  1. No one physically saw them other than the obvious BG
  2. They posted a picture whilst they were on the Bridge
  3. DG could not raise them on the phone
  4. No family member could raise them on the phone
  5. They weren't dressed for a cold February night outside
  6. I take it friends hadn't heard from them first thing you do check with friends and the friends parents
  7. It was tricky terrain
  8. It appeared to be out of character although quite willing to be corrected on that.
    • Unless there were problems at home that we the GP are unaware of that led LE to the assumption, They were with friends or simply runaway.
All that points to two vulnerable young ladies that no one had heard from on a winters evening.

LE should have hoped for the best case scenario with friends or runaway but acted on the worst case scenario, serious injury needing urgent medical attention or as they were to find out on 14th double homicide. It is only my personal opinion nothing more. It was a bad judgement call or better said Naive.

As I say just my personal opinion
MingyMoo

Edited to reword (Acted on)
Click to expand...

Totally agree. I have never really understood LE’s reasoning for calling the search off for the night and the lack of urgency the next morning. LE said they called it off because of the dangerous terrain, etc and the girls weren’t in any real danger(or something like that). They certainly were in danger from freezing to death!
The simple facts that they weren’t answering the phone, their friends hadn’t talk to them, and they hadn’t responded to people yelling their names near the trails would seem to indicate something was very wrong.
However, in the end it’s a moot point as sadly the girls were already deceased so finding them that night wouldn’t have saved them, but, as others have said, the investigation would have started sooner and perhaps that would have helped.
Also, where did the info that 1,000 people were out searching come from? That seems like a enormous number considering the relatively confining area involved.
 
somequestions said:
After all this time, what would you do if you were an investigator in the Delphi double murder of Abigail Williams and Liberty German? After 2 1/2 years, how would you solve the case?
Click to expand...
Great post!
I have snipped your post to focus on the last question.

My disclaimer here is that I am not certain if any of this is feasible to do, but I don't think it would hurt to try since we haven't seen an arrest yet.

If LE has not already done so, bring forward every single person who 'thinks' they saw the killer that day and put them under hypnosis to jog their memories and have the sketch and description of the killer re-done again by each and every person.

This includes the person(s) who saw the car at the abandoned building.

Bring all 'witnesses' to the trail and re-create exactly the events of that day. Who was standing/walking where at what exact time?
Who saw the killer and exactly where and at what time?
Re-create the flow of events with three substitutes in place for Abby, Libby and the killer. Does it all make sense and does the timing of each sighting work?

It may be a stretch to do this part....

Bring in all of the people who searched and ask them to show you where exactly they searched and who they were with.

Who did they see while they were searching?
Was anyone there that seemed out of place?
Did anyone use a canoe or kayak in the water that night, horses, ATV's....did they go to any 'inaccessible' areas?
Who did the searchers speak to in other groups and did those people say anything that may have seemed 'off'?
Was anyone out just for a walk that night who wasn't searching?

That 'one tip' may be buried in there somewhere with a re-creation of some of these actions.

JMO
Edited to make it easier to read
 
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StarryStarryNight said:
Totally agree. I have never really understood LE’s reasoning for calling the search off for the night and the lack of urgency the next morning. LE said they called it off because of the dangerous terrain, etc and the girls weren’t in any real danger(or something like that). They certainly were in danger from freezing to death!
The simple facts that they weren’t answering the phone, their friends hadn’t talk to them, and they hadn’t responded to people yelling their names near the trails would seem to indicate something was very wrong.
However, in the end it’s a moot point as sadly the girls were already deceased so finding them that night wouldn’t have saved them, but, as others have said, the investigation would have started sooner and perhaps that would have helped.
Also, where did the info that 1,000 people were out searching come from? That seems like a enormous number considering the relatively confining area involved.
Click to expand...
Although I may have a hard time finding it, but in one interview (can't remember with whom, at the moment, was it Renner and Leazenby?), it was hinted at that there was suspicion that they had perhaps "runaway" as one of the girls had done similar before? I agree, even this should not have prevented them from continuing to search as some family and friends did, throughout the night. The fact that they were at the bridge having fun tells me no one was planning to run away THAT day.
ed:sp
 
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