Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #122

[somequestions]

I do not think there will be any more press conferences about this case unless there is some major update. The only press conferences I can see happening in the future are for milestone anniversaries like 5 year, 10 year, 15 year, etc. to let the public know they are still working on the case and trying to keep it in the public eye. It does not matter how long it has been. They always tell the public they are still working on the case.

Eventually people will fade away from the case without any new information. This case really held its ground for a long time. And because of that video/audio that Liberty German got on her phone, all hope is not lost for a conclusion. This is a case that can be solved.

 

[Falling Down]

At a CrimeCon, 1st Sgt Holeman of the ISP explained the first sketch released was basically a result of a 'committee' of witnesses and took weeks to arrive at. When the second sketch was released last April it was revealed that it was actually drawn just a few days after the murders so it was actually drawn first.

Thanks.

i was under the impression the July '17 sketch was drawn months after the murders, or may have been.

 

[JnRyan]

Thanks.

i was under the impression the July '17 sketch was drawn months after the murders, or may have been.

That is roughly my impression as well. I believe ISP 1st Sgt Holeman stated 'weeks' (but I may be mistaken on that time frame) but in any event it was released months afterwards.

 

[Trebor5591]

The creek crossing is one of many things that are hard to place.

This is also what those 3 former FBI specialists (I think it was one profiler and two special agents?) said on that podcast about the Delphi murders, that the killer had previously been to and prepared a "lair" to bring his victim(s). It does make some sense but then I keep thinking why would crossing the creek be part of the killer's plan? Why not wait for that girls to cross back over the bridge/creek since he knew they had to (or did he?) as the trail ended on the cross-over side and his "lair" was there?

If we think Libby lost her shoe in a run away towards the creek then crossing it and killing them there was probably an improvisation and not killer's first choice? Was the trail's end something he knew well, no other paths out except through private property or did he choose to approach them on that side because is would have less hiker traffic for having no official egress?

I just don't know with any confidence how the spot/crime scene came to be where it was...without more crime scene descriptive information that shows preparation. AJMO

I agree that the place where the girls were killed was not a prepared "lair", rather, I believe Abby and Libby fled from their killer, and ran across the creek in desperation, not realizing the very rough terrain into which they ran (Ron Logan's property) essentially trapped them and allowed the killer to corner and kill them.

 

[JnRyan]

Thanks.

i was under the impression the July '17 sketch was drawn months after the murders, or may have been.

My mistake, he did say 'months'. At appox. 23 minutes into the CrimeCon video:
Video of the Crime Con Interview (FULL) : DelphiMurders

 

[Charlot123]

Yah unfortunately some people in today's day and age with instant access to social media don't realize what an actual tip is.

It's not well I saw so and so on the internet and he looks just like BG, No I've never met him and don't know anything about him but my friend karen thinks so too.

Instead of:
I know so and so and he was in the area that day and he had called in sick from work that day.

Or my neighbor fits the description and he came over that day and he was acting strange and his boots were all muddy and he kinda looks like BG

Swear, I did not tip a single person but mostly because I live far from Delphi and LE said, local. Had they not, maybe I, too, would start looking around with more interest after they released the second sketch.

 

[Charlot123]

I think a major misconception is that a serial killer will never deviate from the same MO or will always choose the same type of victim. The reality is, they adapt to unique circumstances, they learn from past mistakes, and most importantly, their fantasies change. What MIGHT possibly stay the same is a signature. If there is some aspect of the killing that fulfils a deep psychological need, that could come out as a signature that might link cases. However, this is usually the type of info that investigators do not release to the public.

I always see people posting things like "I couldn't find any other cases where teen girls were kidnapped in tandem." My thinking used to be the same, that the fact there were two girls was highly significant. Now my thoughts have shifted on this subject. IMO if BG has a history of similar assaults we will find it was against victims of different ages. When it comes to sexual offenses most of these perpetrators are very opportunistic in terms of victim selection.

Maybe the ages of the victims would differ? A mother and a daughter?

Man cleared as suspect more than 10 years after wife, daughter murdered on hiking trail

From a similar article:

“Only hours later both women were dead, shot and killed on a popular trail in Mount Baker-Snoqualmie National Forest in Washington State. A hiker recalled seeing them on the trail at 10 that morning; another came across their bodies around 2:30 p.m. and called police. Investigators say that robbery was apparently not a motive—Cooper’s 1997 Dodge Caravan was found where she parked it at the trailhead—and are looking into several scenarios. One is that the killer may have been a crystal meth addict (the nearby town of Granite Falls has had so many drug problems it’s been called Methville); another is that the murders may somehow be linked to the shooting of two Oregon hikers one year earlier. “

So there, too, was a very small amount of time between abduction and murders.

Regarding “signatures”. They maybe person-specific, some form of ritualistic behavior, but as any ritual, they may develop in the course of the crimes. Not present from the case of victim Nr 1.

 

[Charlot123]

Yes, I have a difficult time believing this killer went from a clean history to murder. Even if this was his first time to kill I can't believe he hasn't committed some form of sexual assault or been a peeping tom in the past. I get this guy probably hasn't said anything about this crime and if it was his day off nobody finds his absence suspicious if he lives by himself. But what about a previous victim of such an act? Yet, no tips - that we know of - have led LE in his direction.

If he has killed before or since, his victim type and hunting ground/crime scene might be entirely different. It doesn't help that the database that was originally developed to identify serial offenders, ViCap, has more gaps than data.
Why Can't the FBI Identify Serial Rapists?

Since I think the person is prone to unexplained, serious, episodes of anger, my bet would be on prior domestic violence.

 

[California Sunset]

I agree. The proximity to Valentines Day is notable.
Upthread I mentioned two women, (one a beloved relative) that were murdered, and both on Valentines. V-Day seems to unravel the already mentally unbalanced.

Amateur opinion and speculation

You mentioned Valentine's Day, so I have to throw this in there. The police or phone company rep. told me more threatening/obscene phone calls come in at Christmas than any other time. There must be something about the holidays that set people off.

 

[California Sunset]

Virtually none. I couldn't even give you a detailed description of my next-door neighbors' cars, and I see those every day.

I'm pretty much the same way. I don't even know any of our license plate numbers.

 

[California Sunset]

Maybe. Perhaps. ISP and Georgian FBI can not do anything with the case. Not for the want of money of trying.


I am thinking that one of their assumptions is grossly wrong.

It could be that he is local.

It could be the accent.

It could be the height.

It could be the DNA.

Or the gait.

Something serious, and it leads them down the wrong path.

I do all different sorts of puzzles. Sometimes, when I can't make it work, I realize I'm going about it the same way. Sometimes it comes down to one move. One move makes all the difference between solving it or having it hang.
Is that what you're thinking here? That something has them looking in one direction and the answer is out in left field.

 

[Charlot123]

I do all different sorts of puzzles. Sometimes, when I can't make it work, I realize I'm going about it the same way. Sometimes it comes down to one move. One move makes all the difference between solving it or having it hang.
Is that what you're thinking here? That something has them looking in one direction and the answer is out in left field.

Yes. Exactly. For some reason, whether very logical or random assumption, we all might be very far gone from the real perpetrator.

Several examples come to mind. One is probably irrelevant here, but the cause of at least two long-standing police mistakes, the existence of the so-called “non-secretors”, people who do not secrete their blood antigens into bodily fluids. Before it got known, and well before DNA tests, imagine a rape test yielding “type O”, and the person is a non-secretor. So people with blood types A, B, and AB would have biological alibis, so to say.

Another one has been posted here. @Awsi Dooger, who postulates that one does not need to be the local to rapidly gain enough familiarity with the place like Delphi. What if he is right? What if the person likes hiking and traveling, but is not a local at all?

Escape routes, too. Everyone is discussing how the person got to the car or the highway - I wonder if he needed to? This situation assumes the opposite - that he, indeed, is very local and merely went back to his house after the murders.

I sometimes wonder whether the police rules out female DNA. Should they? The height was not too extreme, as to the rest, the voice, it can happen.

ETA: the whole case might be un-Occam’s razor one. The decision to suspend the overnight search was probably not so unfounded. Between the options, a) teenage girls are having fun in someone’s house; b) the girls fell off the bridge or somehow, accidentally, got traumatized, and c) the girls got viciously slain by a potential SK, what seems more credible?

Maybe with the suspect, it is the same. What we logically discount might be the answer.

Sorry for the long post.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Since I think the person is prone to unexplained, serious, episodes of anger, my bet would be on prior domestic violence.

On the contrary, I think, BG suppressed his anger at home (first towards parents, later on towards girlfriend) and let off steam outside the home even worse. IF he had to keep a certain reputation, in his mind he had to do it secretly, towards strangers. MOO, I can imagine something like that perhaps.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Maybe the ages of the victims would differ? A mother and a daughter?

Man cleared as suspect more than 10 years after wife, daughter murdered on hiking trail

From a similar article:

“Only hours later both women were dead, shot and killed on a popular trail in Mount Baker-Snoqualmie National Forest in Washington State. A hiker recalled seeing them on the trail at 10 that morning; another came across their bodies around 2:30 p.m. and called police. Investigators say that robbery was apparently not a motive—Cooper’s 1997 Dodge Caravan was found where she parked it at the trailhead—and are looking into several scenarios. One is that the killer may have been a crystal meth addict (the nearby town of Granite Falls has had so many drug problems it’s been called Methville); another is that the murders may somehow be linked to the shooting of two Oregon hikers one year earlier. “

So there, too, was a very small amount of time between abduction and murders.

Regarding “signatures”. They maybe person-specific, some form of ritualistic behavior, but as any ritual, they may develop in the course of the crimes. Not present from the case of victim Nr 1.

Since Abby and Libby, I don't like the time "2:30 pm".

 

[minazoe]

This murder was originally thought to be perpetrated by Israel Keyes . This case looks much like the Delphi case on the surface. mOO

 

[Gardenkeep]

My thoughts on BG, purely my own: BG is somewhat local, but not strictly from Delphi. He may be a truck delivery guy. Dropping goods in a regional route that takes him into places like schools, or other related events like sports. He is not a noticeable guy; roughly in his early to mid thirties, he is affable in social contacts, but not a stand out. But he watches. He listens. I feel he targeted the girls, and stalked them; waiting for an opportunity. I do believe he is serial. I'm not convinced that the Evansdale case isn't related. The coincidences between the two cases are so specific; right down to site locations, ages, relationships, and actually physical descriptions. The sites involved may point towards someone who feels most comfortable outdoors; possibly a fisherman, or hunter. I believe that he will do this again if it's just the right trigger.

What I truly hope for is justice. Sooner than later, because I'm not a patient sort. The Delphi case struck me at my heart. I truly fear it will go cold, and I don't want to see that happen.

 

[Falling Down]

https://www.carrollcountycomet.com/articles/lots-of-tips-no-arrest-in-2017-double-homicide/



April 29, 2020

By Debbie Lowe

Staff writer

Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby told the Comet Monday roughly 40,000 tips have been received in the investigation into the homicides of Abigail Williams and Liberty German on Feb. 13, 2017. Leazenby reported that roughly 9,000 tips were received in 2019 and approxim ately 3 , 0 0 0 have been received this year. Libby took a video on her […]

 

[carbuff]

Since I think the person is prone to unexplained, serious, episodes of anger, my bet would be on prior domestic violence.

I think he may be a serial rapist who escalated to murder.

 

[Inali]

I agree that the place where the girls were killed was not a prepared "lair", rather, I believe Abby and Libby fled from their killer, and ran across the creek in desperation, not realizing the very rough terrain into which they ran (Ron Logan's property) essentially trapped them and allowed the killer to corner and kill them.

I can't get past why two athletic girls couldn't outrun one man who appears to have pockets full of stuff. Maybe at least one of them was injured prior to the creek crossing? Didn't one of the girls lose a shoe before the creek crossing, near the dirt road?

 

[JnRyan]

Another one has been posted here. @Awsi Dooger, who postulates that one does not need to be the local to rapidly gain enough familiarity with the place like Delphi. What if he is right? What if the person likes hiking and traveling, but is not a local at all?

Escape routes, too. Everyone is discussing how the person got to the car or the highway - I wonder if he needed to? This situation assumes the opposite - that he, indeed, is very local and merely went back to his house after the murders.

I tend to believe this killer was familiar with the area based on either living there or being a frequent visitor sometime prior to the murders. Maybe 5-10 years prior.

That said, I've wondered if there isn't something about this killer's background that would lend itself to quickly assessing an area. A hunter or maybe an avid hiker certainly comes to mind. Most of the hikers I know though seldom venture off the trails. Also a military background, specifically Marines or Army. I was Navy but in joint field exercises with Army units I was always amazed at the level of comfort and expertise of even the lower ranking soldiers when it came to being in the field. Another type of person - those that participate in the paintball games. Many of them do a lot of recon so they not only know the best way into an area, but the best way - or ways - out of the area. Your best soldiers, marines and paintball players are constantly analyzing the area as they move through it so they can spot possible ambush locations and exfil routes. Such persons might not have or even need prior experience with regard to these trails. One time through the area prior to the day of the murders might be all such a person mentioned above really needs.