Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #122

[Falling Down]

I cannot like or understand this enough because I seriously have to disregard it. Could have easily been a parent/grandparent on the trail and could have zero to do with the killer whether you Believe it’s BG or not. MOO

I'll elaborate more in another post here shortly, but at any rate how many people knew of the MHB before this happened?

It's much easier to get to now that the newer IN 25 road was put through there, vs. prior to 2014, which was only 2+ years before the murders.

Locals interviewed shortly after they were found said they knew of the bridge, but didn't know where it was and thus didn't know how to get there.

How many locals knew how to get to it?

How many locals had been to it?

How many people in the region knew of it?

How many in the region had been to it?

How many outside of the region even knew of it?

Etc.?

JMO

 

[Charlot123]

For me, that has always prompted the question as to why they were not adequately dressed before they even left the house. I suppose that they may have known that there were 2 sweatshirts available in the car.

This was February. I don't care how nice a February day it was. Even in February, when I walk on the nicer days, I am pretty heavily layered. It just seems weird to me.

It has always implied to me that there was some urgency to get out there....that something was up with that.

That we don’t know. Basically, there is very little known about their last sleepover and the next morning. There is a video. There is a call to Carrie. What happened after that? Did anyone see them?

What really surprises me, especially considering how surprised was Anna that Abby was on the bridge, that the Pattys did not make Abby, in the morning, call her mom and ask for the permission. Rules of the sleepovers.

 

[Falling Down]

I feel there is a something wrong with the description of the crime and what the evidence shows.

how did the murder happen almost immediately after "down the hill"?

seems like they ran all over the damm place, crossed the river etc...just doesn't ring right does it?

I know sometimes cops will blatantly lie about what they know to piss off the killer.

like the sketches, this instantaneous murder of two girls doesn't sound right when you look
where all they were found and knowing what little we know. And if it was this bing bang boom kind of killing then how did he get them where they were found?

They were found roughly 650 feet from where the abduction happened.

A 3-4 minute walk. tops, even crossing that creek, which was shallow at the spot they crossed, that day.

The chilling thing is we see the killer approaching his prey. we see someone who is light on his feet even though he looks clumsy, he is moving at a clip. his head down , hands in pockets, this is the position of someone who mean business but means to surprise, he obscures his intentions with his posture that looks lumbering while his feet are moving with no reservation. How do you move so confidently on that bridge?

well, if you've been on it many times even every day or weekend for years on end even ..or maybe you're a bridge guy, a railroad guy..walking stuff like this day in day out.

that bridge is a rickety old mess with holes and broken trestles.

mOO

Bingo.

I agree with your assessment, I'm assuming the video is what you're referring to.

He's been there before, maybe many times. Perhaps many times, over many years. Yet he may not live in the surrounding areas.

The deteriorated condition of the bridge had prevented many people from attempting to cross it for many years, before the murders. Yet brave souls would cross it on a regular basis. How many times had BG crossed it, before?

Good post.

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

I actually think whoever BG is s/he is tech savvy. Lets put it in simple terms. Who shows up, murders two girls, Leaves the girls mobile behind and appears not to take their own with them. Not only someone that may be amature tech savvy.

That actually means some type of premeditation whether it be saddley for Libby and Abby or anyone else who may be in the vicinity around the same time.

I am a apprehensive believer that if it wasn't Libby & Abby it would have been the young ladies that followed shortly after Libby and Abby. I personally think the Guy fcked up and murdered the wrong two young ladies.

I quite simply think we are looking for a hired killer who got their mark wrong.

Its all personal opinion nothing more and exploring other avenues.

As always MingyMoo

I also believe he's perfectly tech savvy. He left the phone at the CS, instead of taking it with him. Taking it with him would have meant he could destroy it, and the video would have been lost forever.

But he didn't take it, he was scared of taking it with him, or planned that in advance. Don't take anything from the victims, or don't take anything which can be easily and quickly traceable. Which would take some planning, and maybe some quick decision-making at the scene. A killer might be tempted to take trophies or what have you, but some I'm sure resist the temptation

We don't know what condition the phone itself was in when it was found, all we know is what LE have mentioned about it being found at the CS.

JMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

That we don’t know. Basically, there is very little known about their last sleepover and the next morning. There is a video. There is a call to Carrie. What happened after that? Did anyone see them?

What really surprises me, especially considering how surprised was Anna that Abby was on the bridge, that the Pattys did not make Abby, in the morning, call her mom and ask for the permission. Rules of the sleepovers.

I actually think we know quite a bit about that time period. Becky Patty has been interviewed numerous times where she has consistently said the girls stayed up late and slept late the next morning. Carrie texted Libbie fairly early though thinking it was a school day. When the girls got up DG made them breakfast. I think it was banana pancakes. The girls complained about being bored. BP had them help with her office filing to earn a little money. The girls got antsy again and asked to go to the trails. She said if they could get a ride there and a ride back. Kelsie said she could take them. (I think I read somewhere that they tried calling AW but couldn’t get her. AW has said on a recent podcast she did not have a problem with Abby going to the trails)(but I would have gotten permission too). BP tried to get the girls to take jackets but they resisted. Libbie called her Dad on the way and he agreed to pick them up. Kelsie tried to get the girls to take sweatshirts but only Abbie took something.

 

[JDough]

I tried to focus on zoom and edit to bring out facial features more then a background , when you zoom in on the pics I uploaded it's more or less me trying to enhance eyes n mouth etc . I think you can make out of them features when you click on the pic and zoom

Doggone it- no matter what any single person has done to enhance the photo; I still can't distinguish a darn thing. It all just looks like blobs and blur to me.
Maybe my eyesight is just going bad?

 

[rosesfromangels]

All we know is the still picture of BG was of course taken from the video. That the images have been worked on by experts including NASA and Disney to try and make it as clear as possible and this is probably as good as it gets.
I think LE has to be careful “filling in the blanks” etc because that might affect prosecution when it finally comes to that. You don’t want the defense arguing that the picture is not his/her client because it was altered in some way. Of course the picture is so bad that might be argued anyway! Just my thoughts.

Forensic grade imaging and editing tools and the supporting hardware, have continued to improve in leaps and bounds since this murder took place 3+ years ago. I wouldn't give up hope on seeing another image released at some point in the not too distant future, that provides a much clearer look at the Perp's facial structure and features.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[mpnola]

Here is my question. I never used Snapchat, but I can imagine that like with most apps, you can take a photo with Snapchat itself, and either keep in the app or post, or take a photo with the phone camera and then download into Snapchat, right?

Maybe I should download S.C. app to see how it works. See what I can do with regular photos as opposed to S.C.-taken photos.

Yeah, but they were found! Don't you think the police would know if the clothing in the photo was different than the clothing they were found in? I think its safe to believe them when they say what time the photo was taken. I can see what time all my photos were taken. Open the photo, swipe it up, there's the date and time stamp. That easy. They have her phone. It was found near the girls at the crime scene. Becky talked about it last week in her interview with tricia. I don't think it really debatable.

 

[Thelastleg]

@Juggernautseeker , but that is the issue. That picture you posted is cut out and blown up. Even if it was in the background, I’d like to see the whole background.


Kelsi said (I think in one of early interviews with Gray Hughes) that the girls were dressed lightly on the car (no jackets) and that she gave them sweatshirts that were in her car - I understand, hers or Libby’s. Libby clothes, when they were searching for the girls, included described a tie-dyed T shirt. I never heard on a sweatshirt. Abby is seen wearing what I would call a zippered jacked on that 2:07 bridge photo. But ...we all have seen many photos of Libby with Abby, and with Kelsi, and interviews of Kelsie and BP, to admit the obvious, that only Abby had a small, lithe, frame. And on the photo from bridge, she wears something that is unmistakably hers, I see it by the shoulder seams on the sweatshirt.

But I am not stating the Kelsie is not telling the truth. She might have given Abby another jacket, from her car, on February 13, seeing that Abby was dressed lightly. That could indicate only one thing, that the photo of Abby on the bridge is not from that day, and that might potentially move the time of the crime outside of the narrow boundaries. There is nothing else but that photo tying girls to MHB that day. To the trails, probably. But not the bridge.
Unless Kelsi was mistaken... I see no other options.

I'm not doubting Kelsie's statement about giving the girls warmer clothing. I was asking if, as you speculate, that the photo was not taken that day, why has nobody eg LE, family member said so. I know there has been various theories on the Snapchat time of 2.07 but as far as I know, no one has ever said forget about that time. It wasn't taken the same day because Abbey was wearing different clothing.

 

[Charlot123]

I'm not doubting Kelsie's statement about giving the girls warmer clothing. I was asking if, as you speculate, that the photo was not taken that day, why has nobody eg LE, family member said so. I know there has been various theories on the Snapchat time of 2.07 but as far as I know, no one has ever said forget about that time. It wasn't taken the same day because Abbey was wearing different clothing.

Merely pointing out at inconsistencies that somehow are repeated.

 

[carbuff]

Doggone it- no matter what any single person has done to enhance the photo; I still can't distinguish a darn thing. It all just looks like blobs and blur to me.
Maybe my eyesight is just going bad?

Me too.

 

[MistyWaters]

I also believe he's perfectly tech savvy. He left the phone at the CS, instead of taking it with him. Taking it with him would have meant he could destroy it, and the video would have been lost forever.

But he didn't take it, he was scared of taking it with him, or planned that in advance. Don't take anything from the victims, or don't take anything which can be easily and quickly traceable. Which would take some planning, and maybe some quick decision-making at the scene. A killer might be tempted to take trophies or what have you, but some I'm sure resist the temptation

We don't know what condition the phone itself was in when it was found, all we know is what LE have mentioned about it being found at the CS.

JMO

No we’ve never learned what condition the phone was in. I’ve always thought it maybe been found in the river as the entire area from the bridge to where the bodies were found would be considered a crime scene.

At about 1:33 on this news broadcast there’s a piece about the phone being forensically examined.

Indiana Computer Crimes Against Children Taskforce assisting in Delphi murders investigation

 

[crhedBngr]

I agree this certainly should be considered. I personally knew two beautiful and talented women who were (in separate incidences), murdered on Valentines Day. V-Day triggers strong emotions, and not all are good.

Amateur opinion and speculation

I'm so sorry for your losses.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I'm so sorry for your losses.

Thank you - it's been several years. I used to dread V-Day coming around, but I realized then the Perp would win. I now celebrate V-Day to the fullest, in honor of these two women, and the power of Love.
Libby and Abby's family have done a great job honoring the girls, and doing good. We have all been touched by their lives it seems.

 

[carbuff]

I'll elaborate more in another post here shortly, but at any rate how many people knew of the MHB before this happened?

It's much easier to get to now that the newer IN 25 road was put through there, vs. prior to 2014, which was only 2+ years before the murders.

Locals interviewed shortly after they were found said they knew of the bridge, but didn't know where it was and thus didn't know how to get there.

How many locals knew how to get to it?

How many locals had been to it?

How many people in the region knew of it?

How many in the region had been to it?

How many outside of the region even knew of it?

Etc.?

JMO

It might have been known more outside the community than within it. There are national organizations for aficionados of old railroads, railroad bridges, old bridges generally, historic travel routes, and all those related things. There are people scouting out areas like this for conversion to rail trails. Photographers. Geocachers. Historic preservation organizations. I'm not saying they all knew about it, but they would have had the ability to have come in contact with the information.

I doubt if that's the connection, but who knows. It could be so many things.

 

[arielilane]

Haven’t read through all the threads here so this may have already been mentioned but, I wonder if the 2nd sketch came from the fairy new snapshot technology.
Parabon® Snapshot® DNA Analysis Service - Powered by Parabon NanoLabs

 

[somequestions]

I brought this up about a year ago.

How do we know that the guy in the blue jacket that some call Bridge Guy is the killer? What if he is some guy who happened to be on the trail, walked by the girls, and a minute later the real killer came from somewhere and the rest is history?

Looking at it from that perspective it would almost certainly mean that 2 people would have been recorded in terms of movement or an acknowledgement of their presence on the audio. This is if we assume that once Liberty German turned on the audio she did not turn it off and that it recorded consecutively. I think it did, but we do not know since we have not been given that information by LE.

Then there is the distance down the bridge this "bridge guy" person seems to be. Even though we know now that he was farther away than Liberty German's phone image shows(since that was a closeup), he was still far enough down the bridge where I think it would take a few minutes to cross in order to catch up to him.

Plus, it would look a little strange if the killer pulled a gun or knife or whatever he did and ordered the girls to go down the hill with another witness within range to hear or see him, whether that witness was walking in front of him or coming towards him the other way.

So if the man on the bridge is not the killer, than he would certainly be a very good eyewitness. Your question is one of the reasons I think it is so important that Liberty German got video/audio that day. Without that video and audio, I do not think I could make the argument.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Haven’t read through all the threads here so this may have already been mentioned but, I wonder if the 2nd sketch came from the fairy new snapshot technology.
Parabon® Snapshot® DNA Analysis Service - Powered by Parabon NanoLabs

Pretty amazing, isn’t it!
Between this and the ongoing improvements to photo enhancement....this loser WILL be caught.

amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Awsi Dooger]

I think the “repair” made some damage. If you want to view a picture by Monet, or any French impressionist, you don’t come closer, you walk away and look at it. What happened, the video was cut off and out, and blown up, and “restored“. I wonder if looking at the original video would be more informative.

Definitely. I have minor disputes with family members all the time on this topic. They always want to zoom in on a picture or sporting event -- or whatever -- while I prefer the long range focus. I'm convinced it captures perspective in far superior fashion.

In this case I can't see a darn thing from all the blurry zoomed or amended frames. Almost without exception it is promoting a bias. Somebody thinks they have detected something and wants the world to marvel at their discovery. Meanwhile it's a wash of pixeled nothingness.

I can't see a young guy at all in the touted specific zoomed frames. But it is easy for me to see a young guy from the handful of photos originally released in 2017, especially one of them.

I have long argued that we'd be far better off toward identification if the original video were released instead of merely a cropped segment including Bridge Guy. We'd own all the spacial reference points. It's like driving down the road and not paying attention. But all of a sudden you glimpse someone who was walking alongside as you flashed past him. Hey, I know that guy. Merely the height and the angles of his shoulders, etc. tipped you toward who it was.

Law enforcement had that idea in this case but I don't think they realized the heavily cropped version wouldn't be as effective. They probably don't want to release the entirety because Abby is almost certainly the focus and her facial expression could indicate she's increasingly uncomfortable.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

I'm honestly wondering why he had to take them that far away from a already secluded place to do what he did ? Unless the girls did run and the down the hill us actually on the side of the creek they were found

It's not really secluded down the hill. That gravel access road dominates the area. When I visited last November that road was covered with leaves and mostly blended into the terrain. I was very surprised when I looked at videos from February and March 2017 toward how white and prominent that access road is during full blown winter. Bridge Guy couldn't risk that type of thing. When you are looking down from the end of the bridge at that time of year the gravel road slices through and basically defines the area. There isn't a good spot on the near side of the creek to commit the murders and be confident you have plenty of time to get away before they are discovered. The area is not dense at all. Lots of thin trees spaced well apart.

Contrast to the opposite side of the creek. It wouldn't take many visits at all to understand how secluded it is. The murders site can't be seen from anywhere on the bridge. It can't be seen approaching the bridge on the north side. Basically the only spots with a view are the far left corner of the one home atop the ridge, and anyone descending on Ron Logan's property down from the cemetery area.

Those two risks basically aren't risks at all. We've seen the photo taken from the corner of that home. Yeah, that's like crossing the bridge in the first place. How often do you think it happens -- looking in that specific direction -- let alone in the exact time frame? Then across the creek all you'd have to do is visit one time to realize there are no footprints, no wrappers or typical debris, no evidence whatsoever of foot traffic even once per year.

He picked a perfect spot. He was greatly aided by the basic fact that there is nobody on those trails. Always ignore the hype of 10 people, of 20 people, of 70 people, and you'll never go wrong.

Notice in all the available videos of the bridge area from 2017 through 2020 that we never see the videographers run into anyone. You would think just one time they'd say wow look here comes a party of four on the trail. Doesn't happen. No matter now many times these guys go out there they run into nobody. That should be a minor hint toward the realities of early 2017 also. Give me the under.