Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #123

[Jax49]

Well this is all clear as mud : )

Yep, it is. IIRC, originally when the young sketch was released he was ID'd as the killer. Only later did one member of LE muddy the waters by saying the killer could look somewhere between the two. (paraphrased & moo)

 

[Charlot123]

Well this is all clear as mud : )

Whatever. I was stuck to the idea of LE that the guy is from Delphi and they know who he is, and now I am thinking, what if not? And we are all discussing who it could be, but the person is long gone, even from Indiana?

 

[Falling Down]

Like you, I have often thought that BG was wearing a disguise. If so, this would explain why 1) LE "knows that voice- they've heard it before", and 2) If BG is local (as LE believes), it may be the reason no one recognizes him.



Your post reminds me of DC's comment on the DTH podcast when standing at the junction of the two trails (right in front of the Mary Gerad sign) "If they had only gone right instead of left". Was BG laying in wait for a victim to come down the trail to the left?

What did he mean by this? Was BG hiding in the tree line, and as you said exposing himself or masturbating? Did the witness see him earlier in the day and report? If I am not mistaken, this witness (who reported something they witnessed) helped to create the second sketch released. So terrifying to think about our young children being exposed to lewd conduct while taking a walk in the park.

I'll include my image from the other day.

I believe BG was on the main trail when A&L were dropped off. YouTube videos show there is a bench west of the intersection of the trails you mentioned, B on my image. I think BG was around where the B is or maybe east of that where the M is.

B=Bench
M=Main trail

He would have had a clear line-of-sight of several hundred feet in either direction on that Winter day.

"in the woods" he would have been on private property and thus suspicious-looking if anyone came along and saw him. Again, I consider time of year when making these educated guesses. The lower Gerard trail parallels the main trail for a distance, then as the land kind of opens up a bit along one of the bends in the creek/gorge just west of the bridge, it curves away from the main trail and goes downhill towards the creek side. It was a driveway decades ago.

I believe BG already knew that most of the property along that creek is private land, and planned accordingly, again considering time of year. Or he may have figured it out from posted signs, either way he already knew he would be on private lands during his carrying out his fantasy, IMO.

I'd wondered early on if maybe the girls went down the Gerard trail, first, but I don't think that's the case at all, and besides the bridge would be exciting to kids that age, anyway, I think. I know I would've been excited at that age, plus we don't have many big bridges here in Indiana.

JMO

 

[carbuff]

Whatever. I was stuck to the idea of LE that the guy is from Delphi and they know who he is, and now I am thinking, what if not? And we are all discussing who it could be, but the person is long gone, even from Indiana?

Sure could be...sigh.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

I'll include my image from the other day.

I believe BG was on the main trail when A&L were dropped off. YouTube videos show there is a bench west of the intersection of the trails you mentioned, B on my image. I think BG was around where the B is or maybe east of that where the

I'll include my image from the other day.

I believe BG was on the main trail when A&L were dropped off. YouTube videos show there is a bench west of the intersection of the trails you mentioned, B on my image. I think BG was around where the B is or maybe east of that where the M is.

B=Bench
M=Main trail

He would have had a clear line-of-sight of several hundred feet in either direction on that Winter day.

"in the woods" he would have been on private property and thus suspicious-looking if anyone came along and saw him. Again, I consider time of year when making these educated guesses. The lower Gerard trail parallels the main trail for a distance, then as the land kind of opens up a bit along one of the bends in the creek/gorge just west of the bridge, it curves away from the main trail and goes downhill towards the creek side. It was a driveway decades ago.

I believe BG already knew that most of the property along that creek is private land, and planned accordingly, again considering time of year. Or he may have figured it out from posted signs, either way he already knew he would be on private lands during his carrying out his fantasy, IMO.

I'd wondered early on if maybe the girls went down the Gerard trail, first, but I don't think that's the case at all, and besides the bridge would be exciting to kids that age, anyway, I think. I know I would've been excited at that age, plus we don't have many big bridges here in Indiana.

JMO

B=Bench
M=Main trail

He would have had a clear line-of-sight of several hundred feet in either direction on that Winter day.

"in the woods" he would have been on private property and thus suspicious-looking if anyone came along and saw him. Again, I consider time of year when making these educated guesses. The lower Gerard trail parallels the main trail for a distance, then as the land kind of opens up a bit along one of the bends in the creek/gorge just west of the bridge, it curves away from the main trail and goes downhill towards the creek side. It was a driveway decades ago.

I believe BG already knew that most of the property along that creek is private land, and planned accordingly, again considering time of year. Or he may have figured it out from posted signs, either way he already knew he would be on private lands during his carrying out his fantasy, IMO.

I'd wondered early on if maybe the girls went down the Gerard trail, first, but I don't think that's the case at all, and besides the bridge would be exciting to kids that age, anyway, I think. I know I would've been excited at that age, plus we don't have many big bridges here in Indiana.

JMO

 

[St. Anthony2017]

Does anyone think the BG could have been up in a deer stand with a clear view of the trail and the bridge so he knew when the right time was to strike? He could have been pretending to be bird watching or just taking scenic pictures but was really watching for a vulnerable victim/s.

 

[Serdavc]

Thank you so much for you're thoughts on this. It is absolutely true that the mind can forget things when faced with a tragedy of this magnitude. I remember wondering if my thoughts and memories were real or imagined when my daughter was abducted and found murdered. I suspect this has happened with the entire family of both girls. It's just too horrifying to be real. While we may be thinking about/identifying their inconsistencies, for them it may be a new (or improved) memory. No deceit involved.

It's terrifying to have a chunk of your memory missing due to trauma. It does terrible things to one's mental and physical health. When memories first begin to reappear, one may (again) question if they are real or imagined. Are we (subconsciously) so desperate for answers that we made ourselves think the thought(s)? Are we imagining there was a black SUV with window decals? As time goes on, we begin to start trusting our memories. We embrace what we know is real. We feel comfortable in sharing those memories with others- sometimes without even realizing it. We continue to heal, and regain what was lost.

It is my belief that this is what is happening with KG. (BP addresses KG's state of mind for the first year following the loss of her Sister in her YouTube interview with Tricia). I have no doubt she will continue to grow, and use her memories to help others. Maybe even her own Sister, by remembering something that was previously forgotten about that day.

I’m so sorry for your loss. If there is anything us WSers can do to help, please reach out. I’m amazed and humbled that you are here to help find justice for another family going through this traumatic and horrific experience. Abby and Libby are lucky to have you working on their case.

 

[Charlot123]

Thank you so much for you're thoughts on this. It is absolutely true that the mind can forget things when faced with a tragedy of this magnitude. I remember wondering if my thoughts and memories were real or imagined when my daughter was abducted and found murdered. I suspect this has happened with the entire family of both girls. It's just too horrifying to be real. While we may be thinking about/identifying their inconsistencies, for them it may be a new (or improved) memory. No deceit involved.

It's terrifying to have a chunk of your memory missing due to trauma. It does terrible things to one's mental and physical health. When memories first begin to reappear, one may (again) question if they are real or imagined. Are we (subconsciously) so desperate for answers that we made ourselves think the thought(s)? Are we imagining there was a black SUV with window decals? As time goes on, we begin to start trusting our memories. We embrace what we know is real. We feel comfortable in sharing those memories with others- sometimes without even realizing it. We continue to heal, and regain what was lost.

It is my belief that this is what is happening with KG. (BP addresses KG's state of mind for the first year following the loss of her Sister in her YouTube interview with Tricia). I have no doubt she will continue to grow, and use her memories to help others. Maybe even her own Sister, by remembering something that was previously forgotten about that day.

OMG. I never knew. So sorry for your loss. I am admiring your strength and kindness, as after such a tragedy you are sympathetic to others and willing to help them. Good luck to you.

 

[sunshineray]

The question would be why is LE not unified in their messages to the general public. Is it because of the evolving investigation or caused by a Multi-Agency Task Force who does not see eye to eye. At the onset of this investigation LE stressed “a person of interest” is someone they’re interested in talking with but who isn’t necessarily a suspect. Might this indicate LE are now open to the possibility neither sketch is an accurate depiction of who the killer might be?.....seems so, according to Leazenby.

April 29/20 - Carrol County Comet/Sheriff Leazenby - BBM
“The Sheriff indicated the two sketches, which varied greatly from each other, were supplied by two different people near the scene on Monday, Feb. 13. Both images are of persons of interest in the investigation.”
Lots of tips, no arrest in 2017 double homicide | Carroll County Comet

Also from that link -
“If people have not heard information from an investigator or released by police, they can assume the information is not true,” Leazenby concluded...”

This leads me to believe one or more people questioned with polygraph didn't do very well with being truthful.

"Leazenby said polygraphs have been administered on some who have been interviewed. However, no information about the polygraphs, or who was polygraphed, is being released because investigators want to protect the integrity of the information collected for prosecution."

Maybe LE really does feel they know who's involved but can't prove it...yet.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

What if he has no background? And lived in Indiana, but not in Delphi? And moved after the killings for a very “normal”, routine, reason? That no one would think twice about?

Now, about DNA - I remember that the peak of DNA interests was probably in 2012-2017. And as to Gedmatch, it was the base for two groups, people working on their family trees, for whatever reasons, and genealogists, working at the trees for the clients (for the same reasons).

All our commercial companies had vast bases for people of European ancestry, so with not high-quality DNA and non-European, or mixed, ancestry, there honestly, truly, might be nothing in Gedmatch, and nothing in CODIS. As to testing itself, the guy’s parents might not be into it specifically because they are well off (no need for poor relatives to emerge on their doorstep), or just know their family trees. Or maybe, at the time of the peak for DNA collections, they lived in states like MD or NY that had somewhat more complicated laws, and later, when the laws became lax, they did not think of it.

Lastly, I am thinking, what if it is an immigrants’ kid? I am still remembering the huge list of the countries that 23@me or Ancestry did not serve.

If we walk away from the concept of LE “knowing” who it is, and imagine the easiest story.

- the guy used to live 2 hours away from Delphi
- his parents were born in another country, or he is an ethic mix, but has nothing to do with Pennsylvanian Germans.
- He left some DNA, but of a poor quality, patched, fragmented and matches something that doesn’t make sense unless you know his background
- parents never considered DNA testing at the peak of interest in it
- he has moved afterwards (graduated, or relocated for a totally normal reason)
- he looks average
- he has good natural ability to languages/accents and when living at Midwest, spoke like a Midwesterner
- he maybe had bronchitis/allergies during that time and spoke in a more raspy voice than usual
- he had a good reason to be angry/frustrated at that time, but it was something within the family, unrelated to a break
- he had no GF at that time, and later reconnected with someone when he moved away; the new person has not heard about Delphi

How typical would it be? I mean, LE hints at knowing, but what if they don’t? That they are not Sherlock Holmes we already know.

Am I the only one who at this point thinks that maybe LE has no clue about BG because BG is rather average, and doesn’t live in Delphi?

bbm
I don't know, if you are the only one, who thinks that, Charlot, but I for my part am thinking all the time: BG doesn't live in Delphi and LE might have a clue of who this "not-really-average" guy is. They might have also a clue now, why there are 2 different sketches and which sketch might resemble whom exactly. The connection to Delphi on Febr. 13th, 2017, is still missing possibly, for both of the men, OBG and YBG. The alibis seem to be well thougt out by a bright mastermind and well zemented. MOO

The "mastermind" should now give up, fGs. Today is the day for that! JUST.Give.Up.
It won't go well forever; at some point there must be an end.

 

[Ozoner]

I don't know, if you are the only one, who thinks that, Charlot, but I for my part am thinking all the time: BG doesn't live in Delphi and LE might have a clue of who this "not-really-average" guy is. They might have also a clue now, why there are 2 different sketches and which sketch might resemble whom exactly. The connection to Delphi on Febr. 13th, 2017, is still missing possibly, for both of the men, OBG and YBG. The alibis seem to be well thougt out by a bright mastermind and well zemented. MOO

The "mastermind" should now give up, fGs. Today is the day for that! JUST.Give.Up.
It won't go well forever; at some point there must be an end.

I wouldn't use the term mastermind because I don't believe there are two perps, but I do hope this case has a resolution.
Unfortunately, many murder cases do not ever have one.
-
"There’s a nearly 40 percent chance you’ll get away with murder in America"

There’s a nearly 40 percent chance you’ll get away with murder in America

 

[Justice101]

following...

 

[MistyWaters]

This leads me to believe one or more people questioned with polygraph didn't do very well with being truthful.

"Leazenby said polygraphs have been administered on some who have been interviewed. However, no information about the polygraphs, or who was polygraphed, is being released because investigators want to protect the integrity of the information collected for prosecution."

Maybe LE really does feel they know who's involved but can't prove it...yet.

Maybe, but Leazenby doesn’t say anybody failed a poly, just they were administered on “some” which would include only those who volunteered. It’s equally possible polygraphs are asked of people providing incriminating tips and leads to aid in measuring the level of their integrity. Once a case becomes high profile, I’d imagine the small segment of society who thrive by forwarding malicious, false and misleading tips increases as well, especially when a large reward is involved.

Just my opinion, sketch #2 didn’t result in that “one good tip” much like sketch #1, so LE are left with no option but to begin backing away. Even if any of the witnesses indeed sighted the killer, the accuracy of sketches is well known to be questionable. As time passes, so does the value of a sketch of how someone might’ve appeared three or more years ago.

If the guilty party had been an exact match to either sketch and still lived in or near Delphi, this case would not require a high profile manhunt to seek out 50,000 tips involving a community of 3000 people. LE would’ve had the opportunity to question every single person who the suspect was known to be connected with including friends, wives, girlfriends, relatives, neighbours and associates. IMO

 

[Blue Amethyst]

This is a What if..JMO
I think the OBG is the person who was hanging around the trails. He was confrontational and was even described wearing the blue jacket and blue jeans. I think he was investigated and possibly cleared.

So what if one of the young guys hanging around there is really YBG. Apparently it wouldn’t take much to get the same or similar blue jeans and jacket. Then if he was seen he would resemble the OBG if he kept his face hidden. YBG could commit the crime and let the blame fall on OBG.

Except someone did see his face and hence the sketch.

 

[JnRyan]

Am I the only one who at this point thinks that maybe LE has no clue about BG because BG is rather average, and doesn’t live in Delphi?

I've heard from members in the military that SPECOPS operators, such as those in the Army's Operational Det D (Delta) or the Navy's Special Warfare Development Group (SEAL Team Six) may be called upon to do surveillance in a foreign country. For this they find it advantageous to use individuals who don't stand out in a crowd. For example, a blonde haired man who is 6'6" may not be the ideal person walking around in Lebanon. Many of the SEAL Team Six I saw were not even six foot tall and with a beard and no military haircut, I would not pick them out in a crowd. That BG is just an average looking guy may be why we have some confusion on the sketches. If he lives in Indianapolis, Chicago or Louisville KY and I stood in line next to him at a coffee shop I probably wouldn't give him a second thought.

 

[JnRyan]

Well this is all clear as mud : )

If I had to sum this case up in one sentence, that's one of the best I've seen so far.

 

[layer]

I can't help but think the authorities have no clue who did this. They botched the case from the very beginning - calling off the search, etc. They released useless sketches that present people who bear no resemblance to each other. They are so stubborn about not releasing any details that we can do little to help, and it is abundantly clear that they need help.
I would really like a firmer timeline, for example. The photo of Abby was taken at 2:07, but I see no reason why they can't release the time stamps for the video of BG on the bridge and the audio "down the hill." I have long suspected that BG first appeared on the south side of the bridge, walked past the girls, and became suspicious enough for Libby to start recording after he turned back toward them. A firm timeline could prove that - if there wasn't enough time for BG to walk across the bridge between the initial photo (which showed no one behind her) and the video.
Sigh...

 

[Maplesyrup]

A couple things I’ve been thinking...I’m still catching up on all posts, but...
LE says BG is probably local...from evidence at the scene alone and not any POI information, I think they would come to this conclusion because BG knew the land beyond the trails. They probably have a very good idea what his movements looked like after the murders. There would be broken branches and some evidence of walking off trails. It makes me wonder if he’d been walking off path other days, imagining the crime, running off the path to create a mental map.
Additionally, I was listening to the audio that Abby had recorded. It was on a loop, so I ended up hearing it way more than I had intended. The words started to sound more “parsed” to me, like snippets of a larger dialogue. I wonder if he’d been asking for help to get something that was lost, down the hill? Then the “guys” part. Who’s to say it wasn’t the word “disguise”? It just sounds cut off at the beginning. I know it’s reaching, but I feel something is missing.

I like that you mention the word "guys." IMO the reason they chose the word "guys" is because of his almost hissing sound pronouncing the "s" sound. I said the word "guys" out loud to myself just now and noticed that my "s" sounds more like a "z"...mine sounded like "guize." BG pronounces it "guise" with that drawn out "s." I am strongly suspecting that is exactly why LE chose the word "guys." They want that drawn out "s" sound to catch someone's attention.

 

[Romans12]

Nancy Grace crime stories podcast has new interview with Becky and Kelsi

 

[MistyWaters]

I can't help but think the authorities have no clue who did this. They botched the case from the very beginning - calling off the search, etc. They released useless sketches that present people who bear no resemblance to each other. They are so stubborn about not releasing any details that we can do little to help, and it is abundantly clear that they need help.
I would really like a firmer timeline, for example. The photo of Abby was taken at 2:07, but I see no reason why they can't release the time stamps for the video of BG on the bridge and the audio "down the hill." I have long suspected that BG first appeared on the south side of the bridge, walked past the girls, and became suspicious enough for Libby to start recording after he turned back toward them. A firm timeline could prove that - if there wasn't enough time for BG to walk across the bridge between the initial photo (which showed no one behind her) and the video.
Sigh...

The continued refusal by LE to reveal any further evidence is why I believe crime scene forensic evidence is weak, unfortunately. But they’re certainly not going to admit it.

If LE had mountains of evidence placing any one suspect at the crime scene including such things as DNA if a SA occurred, from a weapon left behind, victim fingernail scrapings or blood droplets on the ground possibly a known vehicle, shoeprints, etc and has so far been unsuccessful in identifying the culprit linked to it, then protecting the integrity of the investigation becomes less important because the evidence required to satisfy the threshold of criminal proceedings is already present.

But if they don’t have that, a suspect who has shared very specific knowledge not ever released to the public may become the strongest incriminating evidence there can ever be. This is what I think LE is hoping to gain in seeking that one good tip.