Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #123

[Kell1]

I have always wondered if some of these early statements from LE were because they (maybe) thought an arrest would be made quickly? "No need to worry, folks. We have a suspect that we will be taking into custody within the next few days", kind of mentality?

Ive never seen any agency do that .

Especially an agency so concerned about loosing the case in court that they are sitting on a bunch of evidence.

These cases, are tough on agencies like the FBI, a small department like Delphi that rarely sees 1 homicide let alone 2 at the same time is a tall task.

I do not believe they botched this case, at all, I think they took no chances, and brought in the FBI, which almost certainly is coaching them in this .

Now I feel this case is solvable, but again, they are sitting on info that most larger depts would most likely let out .

So whay are they ? because they aren't used to these kind of cases, this would be difficult to deal with in cny city in the US, they are doing their best , but they don't want to see a killer walk free because they didnt do their due diligence, that's why it may almost seem "amateur" with it, because due to what they deal with on a regular basis .... They are amateur.

But I commend them on how they are handling this case, I just know in a large Dept that sees homicides regularly, most likely more wouldve, been made known.

 

[Kell1]

I was convinced someone knows the identity of BG, early on in 2019, three months before the PC where they showed the video. It was just a gut feeling, but...

Then Supt. Carter said at the PC the investigation had "changed direction" or "was heading in a new direction", something to that effect.

Makes me wonder if LE picked up on 'chatter' among people who had identified BG, or maybe thought they had.

I'm of the opinion people have ID'd BG, and it's family or other people close to him.

JMO

In most cases, the offenders name comes to light within the first week of the investigation, however theres something that doesnt move them to "POI" or "suspect"

 

[Kell1]

As Kell1 indicated, the cops are playing the percentages when they say that BG is local. No non-local person should be ruled out. The detectives investigating Israel Keyes's various murders probably thought the perp was local, too.

In these type of cases, the offender is overwhelmingly usually a local in the area for a legitimate reason, this is different than a serial killer who preys on adults like Keys.

Serial Killers are often transient, as we can surmise from the number of long haul truckers that turn out to be repeat killers across a vast territory, and although these types (Abduction murderers of children) especially if there's a sexual component , which in most cases there is have the highest propensity to become serial offenders.

They are unique even among serial offenders who prey on adults.

The FBI is involved in this case, there's reasons they feel he is (was) local, because he most likely was

He knew that area, he felt comfortable walking 2 scared or at least suspicious kids .5 miles from that bridge , in broad daylight then killed not 1 but 2 of them and got out of there without being seen .

Im pretty sure hes been there many times before just MHO

 

[St. Anthony2017]

BBM
So BG wasn't wearing gloves? That surprises me, since he seemed to have everything but his face covered.

Maybe in a struggle the killers glasses fell off and broke or flew off and there was a partial print on one of the the lenses from before he put the gloves on. He might have not been able to find them or forgot them. Lots of people think they see glasses on the BG video.

 

[mom2chloe]

BG looks like he could be in a Rural King commercial.

I shop there a few times per year myself.

JMO

Hubby and I do too a few times a year. How is BG the luckiest SOB to not be identified by now?

I completely agree that he could be a poster child for Rural King or a Tractor Supply Store! IMO

 

[mom2chloe]

Maybe in a struggle the killers glasses fell off and broke or flew off and there was a partial print on one of the the lenses from before he put the gloves on. He might have not been able to find them or forgot them. Lots of people think they see glasses on the BG video.

This is a very valid point because many people at a certain age need reading glasses. What elements of the crime would BG require reading glasses for in order to succeed? IMO

 

[mom2chloe]

BBM
So BG wasn't wearing gloves? That surprises me, since he seemed to have everything but his face covered.

We don’t know that he wasn’t and given his other choice of clothing it’s not too far off to assume he had gloves maybe even hence the hands in the pocket. That’s why I think the dna was limited or insufficient. And on a side note I am left wondering who works for LE that had a son ij the area who either had the day off from school too or new it was a free day? I waiver back and forth between a coverup of some sort. IMO

 

[Falling Down]

They were a couple hours north of where this occurred, in Evansdale, though there were 2 victims in each case, which is indeed odd , I do not think the cases are related however .

Evansdale was more of a "stereotypical" abduction murder if you will , Im actually stunned that one hasn't been solved.

I agree with your assessment on this case , another possibility is someone posing as an authority figure or a property owner, and telling the girls to follow him .

Without a confession we may never know if the girls did indeed yell for help, its possible they just weren't heard. What I find harder is that none of them made a break for safety.

Which leads me to believe that either 1) they were in fear or 2) they weren't aware of the impending danger, even though they videoed someone approaching them.

But we know that this offender was successful in getting them to walk .5 mi to the spot they were found.

I agree with this, except for the distance.

LE and other keep saying "a half mile", I've even heard a mile from the bridge. This confused the daylights out of me and many other people sleuthing the case early on.

The orange line in the image below indicates the distance/path involved from the SE end of the bridge to the CS. It's approximately 650 feet.

 

[Kell1]

I agree with this, except for the distance.

LE and other keep saying "a half mile", I've even heard a mile from the bridge. This confused the daylights out of me and many other people sleuthing the case early on.

The orange line in the image below indicates the distance/path involved from the SE end of the bridge to the CS. It's approximately 650 feet.

Thanks for the clarification, however my feeling on the case, remains the same , perhaps they felt he walked them back across the bridge initially

 

[St. Anthony2017]

This is a very valid point because many people at a certain age need reading glasses. What elements of the crime would BG require reading glasses for in order to succeed? IMO

Maybe he was wearing them just as part of his disguise or he is near sighted or far sighted.

 

[sunshineray]

I go off the premise that this is merely a media article, they need to get ad revenue, clicks, etc. So the information is ambiguous, at best, sometimes.

LE would never tell anyone not intimately involved in an investigation how someone died, before an arrest. Not in 2020 America.

JMO

What I meant is numerous family members have mentioned in the media that they were not told how the girls died. So if in fact they were told the particulars, being close family members to the victims, that information could have conceivably made it onto social media somewhere. It's an interesting thought.

 

[Charlot123]

This is a very valid point because many people at a certain age need reading glasses. What elements of the crime would BG require reading glasses for in order to succeed? IMO

Tattoo, surgery, marks. Something very precise.
As one who is far-sighted, I can say that up to a certain level, one could compensate if the work is routine. Thus, a surgeon could probably operate without reading glasses. And a tattooist probably could do routine job without eyeglasses. So maybe BG was doing something uncommon for him.

Another interesting question is how would a person needing reading glasses early enough look like. I assume he might have smaller eyes.

Reading glasses are usually needed by 45 or even older. Consider how many people around us are slightly near-sighted in young age. With big, beautiful eyes. As their eyes shrink with age, there is partial compensation of inborn near-sightedness by acquired far-sightedness, so initially, there is some “improvement” of the eyesight. Anyhow, such a person would not need eyeglasses for close work for quite a while.

There are two groups that might need eyeglasses for reading in the earlier age.

One is the group that spent a lot of time in sunny climate as UV causes far-sightedness sooner.

There is a group of congenital hypermertopes. In the young age, they usually have very good vision - these people commonly are very good marksmen, too. As to minimal problems reading, they’d compensate by holding the book farther than the average reading distance. But they might need reading glasses earlier, in early 40es or even late 30es.

 

[Yemelyan]

Ive never seen any agency do that .

Especially an agency so concerned about loosing the case in court that they are sitting on a bunch of evidence.

These cases, are tough on agencies like the FBI, a small department like Delphi that rarely sees 1 homicide let alone 2 at the same time is a tall task.

I do not believe they botched this case, at all, I think they took no chances, and brought in the FBI, which almost certainly is coaching them in this .

Now I feel this case is solvable, but again, they are sitting on info that most larger depts would most likely let out .

So whay are they ? because they aren't used to these kind of cases, this would be difficult to deal with in cny city in the US, they are doing their best , but they don't want to see a killer walk free because they didnt do their due diligence, that's why it may almost seem "amateur" with it, because due to what they deal with on a regular basis .... They are amateur.

But I commend them on how they are handling this case, I just know in a large Dept that sees homicides regularly, most likely more wouldve, been made known.

The only thing is, the Delphi police department doesn't have lead investigative agency in this case, though. I think they have one or two support personnel who work on it (there are also two detectives from the Carroll County Sheriff's Office who play support roles) but the lead investigator is from the Indiana State Police, Jerry Holeman. The ISP had charge of the case from basically the moment the bodies were found, and the FBI was consulting from day one. Maybe you could still say that the ISP are amateur-ish compared to, say, detectives in NYC or something, but I think comparing Sgt. Holeman's experience and the resources of the ISP to the Delphi police department is apples to oranges.

Things about the investigation MAY have been botched (to others' points), and decisions about what to release MAY have been too conservative (to your point, @Kell1), I certainly don't doubt what you've said about that, but those decisions definitely weren't made by the Delphi police department. It's been well out of their hands from the beginning.

 

[Yemelyan]

I have always wondered if some of these early statements from LE were because they (maybe) thought an arrest would be made quickly? "No need to worry, folks. We have a suspect that we will be taking into custody within the next few days", kind of mentality?

If you go back and listen to some of the interviews with investigators that took place in the first three months after the murders, they literally said this...expressed the exact thought you've written here. I'm thinking of one in particular with Sgt. Holeman where he said in the first two weeks they assumed it would be solved immediately and he couldn't believe it was two months on and it was still unsolved (though he still expressed optimism that it would be).

I think that local police generally have an idea of who the local "bad actors" are, and in this case it's my opinion that very early on some of the investigators were zeroed in on a particular sex offender from the Kokomo area who had an abduction/assault in his criminal history of an underage victim. I'm not going to put his initials here, though many of you who've been here from the beginning can guess who I'm referring to. I even think that the original sketch we saw may have been somewhat influenced by LE leaning in this direction. However, IMO this "good candidate" was eventually ruled out (perhaps by DNA, perhaps other things didn't fit) and they had to start over. I will say that if you read the details of the crime he was convicted of, and went to jail for, you couldn't NOT look at him seriously for the Delphi case. All MOO.

 

[sunshineray]

BBM
So BG wasn't wearing gloves? That surprises me, since he seemed to have everything but his face covered.

It does make one wonder just what the killer did to cover his tracks/prints etc...to still be on the loose after video, audio, DNA and now a fingerprint, partial though it may be, being left behind.

In my mind, there's something procedural that was done wrong, maybe something was overlooked and now it's unusable. Something they have the knowledge of but they cannot use it in court. AJMO

 

[Falling Down]

If you go back and listen to some of the interviews with investigators that took place in the first three months after the murders, they literally said this...expressed the exact thought you've written here. I'm thinking of one in particular with Sgt. Holeman where he said in the first two weeks they assumed it would be solved immediately and he couldn't believe it was two months on and it was still unsolved (though he still expressed optimism that it would be).

I think that local police generally have an idea of who the local "bad actors" are, and in this case it's my opinion that very early on some of the investigators were zeroed in on a particular sex offender from the Kokomo area who had an abduction/assault in his criminal history of an underage victim. I'm not going to put his initials here, though many of you who've been here from the beginning can guess who I'm referring to. I even think that the original sketch we saw may have been somewhat influenced by LE leaning in this direction. However, IMO this "good candidate" was eventually ruled out (perhaps by DNA, perhaps other things didn't fit) and they had to start over. I will say that if you read the details of the crime he was convicted of, and went to jail for, you couldn't NOT look at him seriously for the Delphi case. All MOO.

Thanks for reminding us, yes all of that was said early on. I'd say between the murders and May or thereabouts.

JMO

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Every time I read things about BG being above average/smart, etc...actually any criminal that is labeled smart...I feel a little irritated. I don’t think it takes “above average intellect” to commit crimes. Any idiot can obsess over and practice something and even prevent their own capture. It doesn’t take a genius, it just takes someone so insecure that they need to take something from another.

If you have someone in mind, when describing a poss. suspect, and it isn't ie. DN or some loser with initials, we heard since 2017, then maybe you were able to put a profile together, without guessing (but knowing) features like "smart/clever/above average". - Your suspect maybe wrong at the end, of course.

 

[Ozoner]

Maybe he was wearing them just as part of his disguise or he is near sighted or far sighted.

Now people are talking like it's been established that he was wearing glasses, which isn't the case. I don't see any glasses in the video of BG, and neither of the witness-generated sketches includes glasses.
-
If there was a partial fingerprint at the scene, it was probably on the skin of one of the girls. Skin isn't the best surface to lift prints from, but prints can be lifted from human skin.

 

[JDough]

Wouldn’t the immediate family receive a death certificate which records the cause of death, if not the full autopsy report from the coroner? That’s not issued by police. JMO whether or not they’re cleared by LE is not directly connected to the fact their family member is deceased and a death certificate represents the confirmation.

Otherwise how would anyone related to a murder victim involving an unsolved homicide case go about settling the estate, collecting insurance or applying for other death benefits, etc?

A death certificate can be issued without the cause or manner of death listed. A death certificate does one thing: prove that a person is no longer living. The reason a person is no longer living (MOD/COD) can be listed as undetermined, pending, deferred, etc. It does not have to state a specific reason.

For example; my daughter's cause of death is listed as "deferred", and the manner of death is listed as "homicide". This may happen when the autopsy report is sealed, and/or an investigation is pending. These terms are a legally accepted cause or manner of death. The information can be amended at a later date by the medical examiner's office.

 

[Charlot123]

Every time I read things about BG being above average/smart, etc...actually any criminal that is labeled smart...I feel a little irritated. I don’t think it takes “above average intellect” to commit crimes. Any idiot can obsess over and practice something and even prevent their own capture. It doesn’t take a genius, it just takes someone so insecure that they need to take something from another.

Till now, only one type of intelligence is measurable, and it is academic one. Harvard is working at tests measuring socio-emotional intelligence, and the work is slow. And then, consider the ability to use one’s intelligence to the maximum that is also difficult to measure.

So far, BG is overplaying everyone. Maybe there is something else on his side, but ultimately, he must have factored everything in and predicted the reaction to his crime, too. This makes him smart in my eyes, and it is sad that he used this potential against two scared teenagers.