Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #126

[Tricia]

Welcome back to the Delphi Murders discussion thread.

On the afternoon of Feb. 13th, 2017, best friends Abigail Williams and Liberty German were dropped off at a bridge in the town of Delphi. On Feb 14th their bodies were discovered around noon about 50 feet from the north bank of Deer Creek which is about 0.5 miles from the bridge.
The Sheriff's office gave a press conference on 4/22/19 and we have some solid information. Please take a look below

HERE IS THE NEW SKETCH FROM THE PRESS CONFERENCE ON 4/22/19

HERE IS THE NEW AUDIO. IT'S-A BIT LONGER THAN THE FIRST AUDIO:
https://www.in.gov/isp/files/Delphi_Audio_Edited_2019x3.wav

Here is the old audio in a loop:
http://www.in.gov/isp/files/Delphi_male_voice_loop.mp3

LATEST PRESS CONFERENCE 4/22/19

FOR MORE CLICK HERE FOR THE CARROL COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE FACEBOOK PAGE.

Anyone with information about this case, no matter how insignificant, is encouraged to call the Delphi Homicide Investigation Tip Line at (844) 459-5786.

Information can also be reported by calling the Indiana State Police at(800) 382-7537, or the Carroll County Sheriff's Department at (765) 564-2413.

Information can also be emailed to Abbyandlibbytip@cacoshrf.com

video of press conference from 2017 02/22/17: https://www.facebook.com/NewsCenter1...4728963476130/

Let's do this. Let's commit to getting this killer's picture and voice out there any possible way we can.

Pictures of Abby and Libby

Link to post with all Threads #1-98 (Courtesy of margarita25)

Thread #99 Thread #100 Thread #101 Thread #102 Thread #103 Thread #104 Thread #105 Thread #106 Thread #107 Thread #108 Thread #109 Thread #110 Thread #111 Thread #112 Thread #113 Thread #114 Thread #115 Thread #116 Thread #117 Thread #118 Thread #119 Thread #120 Thread #121 Thread #122 Thread #123 Thread #124 Thread #125

Link to Media Maps & Timelines *No Discussion*
Link to Media Maps & Timelines #2 *No Discussion*

IMAGE Discussion Thread

Scanner Thread

Rules Etiquette & Information

Case map by skibaboo updated with grayhuze crime flow video

Grayhuze youtube channel

Verified Insiders: None in this case at this time. Verified Professional, Member michael.gartley, is a Verified Expert in Imaging Science.

RULES OF THIS DISCUSSION
DO NOT post photos of random individuals (including persons featured in MSM articles about other area crimes) to compare to the images of unidentified suspect on the bridge.

PLEASE DO NOT POST PICTURES OF SEX OFFENDERS!

Do not sleuth family, PERIOD. This includes previous public records which have nothing to do with this case. They are victims here. Plain and simple.

If you feel you have a tip, by all means, phone it in. Do NOT discuss your tip here. Contact the authorities and give them time to follow your lead.

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

Some posts have been removed as off topic. Hopefully the following clarifies.

For those enquiring about the use of initials, reference is made in TOS under Name Calling and Derogatory Name Variations by simply stating "Initials may be used, and are encouraged".

There are rules and then there are policies. WS policy is to NOT use full names so that the names of innocent people are not forever etched in stone on a crime sleuthing website when they may have had nothing to do with the actual crime. It could also have potential legal ramifications that nobody needs. The policy has been that we can use full names for a victim and a POI/suspect who has been officially named by LE but for most others we use initials. It is a matter of discretion and WSers have been adhering to that policy for about 20 years now and it has served us well, so it is very possible for members to get used to it. If we can get to know members by their anonymous user IDs such as 1973Aplus8, surely we can get used to initials used throughout a specific case.

Example: One thread some of us are familiar with, a person not only self-identified, but also stated they knew they were a POI although LE had not named them as such. That highly qualified person subsequently reported they were having difficulty getting employment because their name was showing up to potential employers in google searches connected to discussion of a horrific murder.

This is Thread #123 for Abby and Libby and we've have done alright so far. If someone wants to complete the list of initials and abbreviations, please submit it to us via private message and we will include it in future Opening Posts. Otherwise, please stay on topic in this thread.

If you have questions, please do not discuss them on the thread so we don't derail the thread with off topic conversation. You may private message a Mod or Admin for clarification.

Thanks.

 

[Sillybilly]

That one of the girls was forced to watch is rumor.

Please do not bring rumors to WS and discuss them. Thanks.

 

[Sillybilly]

Hi sillybilly. I'm listening to the True Crime Garage Delphi podcast as I write this. The hosts are discussing that very thing right now. At roughly the 5:56:05 mark one host says that one of the detectives said that the cellphone video haunts him because of the look on one girl's face. Then a female host replies this: " The investigator said that it's always haunted him, that he has watched Libby's cellphone video multiple times, and what bothers him is the reaction on one girl's face, watching what is happening to her friend." I'm not being deliberately argumentative, I am just wondering if we cannot take what we hear on the podcasts as fact. I have believed that we can, especially when the podcasts have LE involvement in production.

"Forced to watch" was removed due to it being social media comment. There is a distinction between "forced to watch" (terminology sourced via rumor) vs "watching what is happening" (from an approved source). While it is a most likely scenario that one of the girls DID see/watch what was happening to the other, that does not necessarily translate into being forced by the perp to do so as an element of the crime.

Let's just stick with our approved sources without adding an interpretation by random social media commentators.

 

[Sillybilly]

WS is fact based and speculation about numerology being involved doesn't fall into the fact based category. Such posts have been removed.

 

[Sillybilly]

Posts bickering over victim blaming have been removed. If you think there is victim blaming, Report the post and let Mods/Admins review it instead of arguing about it and having the thread closed for cleanup.

Thread is open again.

 

[Sillybilly]

Posts sleuthing/discussing JKK and the judge have been removed as they are not officially named POIs/suspects.

Members may sleuth and discuss such things behind the scenes via private messaging amongst themselves but may not post such information on this public discussion thread.

 

[Sillybilly]

Hey everyone,

Other than a similarity to the Delphi sketch, there is no indication from LE that Martrell Weaver is considered a POI or suspect in the murders of Libby and Abby. We've been down this road before where there are similarities between sketches and other individuals but there ends up being no connection.

Please do not continue to discuss him unless/until we find out that LE is investigating him as a POI or suspect in relation to the Delphi case.

As usual, members may sleuth behind the scenes and discuss via private messaging where up to 20 members can be added to the private conversation. Just don't post your findings on this public thread.

If there is any change, we will review it if/when that happens.

Thanks.

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

This thread is becoming rife with rumor posts and creating extra work for our Moderators in having to review and trying to determine what is known fact and what is rumor.

RUMORS ARE NOT ALLOWED.

If you can't link information to Websleuths approves sources, do NOT post it with "I read it somewhere" or "I'll find the link later ...".

This is Websleuths folks. Take time to do your homework. Please don't just throw stuff out there. Before you post something make doubly sure what you are stating is FACT as we know it from MSM, LE or another approved Websleuths source.

Thank you.

 

[Falling Down]

It is interesting when you look at the case of Lyric Cook and Elizabeth Collins in Evansdale, Iowa. One of the aspects that makes the investigators in that case think it must be a local is where the bodies were found, Seven Bridges Wildlife area. Over 8 years later I think they still think it is a local who committed that crime.

I could barely find Seven Bridges Wildlife area on a google map. So I understand why so many people tend to think the killer in this case is most likely a local from the Delphi, Indiana area. From a statistical perspective it makes sense.

I think human nature is that when you do not know something you go towards what is most likely. I do not think we will know the truth until someone is arrested and convicted.

How do we know this bridge guy is not some lonely man who visits obscure trail and wildlife areas?

Not only that, the Iowa killer left the bodies across the river from where it's easy to drive within the park itself. It's a spot not easily traveled to on foot. I don't remember what type of property it is where the bodies were left, that is if it was public or private land. However I know where it is on a map. Be that as it may, in both of these cases the killer left the bodies where they would be seen, and left them is places where the general public would not have found them easily.

I'll break this down best I can, and with some brevity:

1. Iowa killer, didn't want the "shock and awe" we've seen in the Delphi case. Bodies found months later by hunters, remains .were not buried deep in any ground, and would have been found eventually, anyway.

2. Delphi killer left the bodies where they could be found during a search, and wanted them to be found for more of a "shock and awe" effect. I believe BG:

-Chose the time of year, and it happened to be the 2nd mild Winter in a row here in northern IN. He did this for a variety of reasons, but better lines-of-sight, with the vegetation down on the ground or gone for the season, was a big motivator to do it in February.
-Chose the date, perhaps even knew school was off for the day.
-Chose the spot for the actual murders, on RL's property, well in advance.
-Wanted total control. All of the above fits into this, and he wanted for there to be many hours to pass before the girls were found. That way he could feel power and control over the situation, hours after the murders happened, keeping a close eye on news reports out of Indy about the missing girls.

BG might also follow police, fire, and EMS chatter/traffic over UHF or other radio bands. Again, I believe he's a total control freak, and his "success" with the murders he wanted to know everything about, on LE's end. May even be a LEO.

JMO

 

[Rhiannon Gray]

Is this quote 100% as it was said? Is it significant that he said 'were' and not 'are'?

In the 'Down the Hill' podcast, Robert Ives said:

'There was a lot more physical evidence than that at the crime scene and it's probably not what you would imagine, or what people would think I'm talking about.'

'It was just not your normal 'a person was killed here' crime scene, that's probably all I can say about it."

If the sherrif purposefully said 'were', could items have been moved from their original positions to the crime scene/location of the bodies?

Yes. The quote is the same way that it was presented in the post.
I do hang on to words that seem subtle , but that could hold significant meaning.
I believe this was carefully said.
So, I would agree that it would seem to indicate a change or movement.

My opinions and my observations.

 

[Falling Down]

Interesting discussions finding here today.

To me, the familiarity of the killer to the layout screams that he's explored the area on foot and possibly on googlemaps, etc.

1) He apparently knows that the end of the bridge is a dead end.

2) He knows that when he is standing on the north end of the bridge, he can see unblocked straight lines of sight in both directions: a) Back behind him on trail looking for witnesses and b) looking forward to see the girls once the girls reached the far end of the bridge and were trapped.

3) He knows exactly where to take them down the hill.

4) He apparently knows they can cross the creek to get to a hidden low area to have privacy with muffled seclusion to commit this horrible crime.

5) He knows he can escape back out thru the cemetery (or parallel the road alongside the woods) and therefore not be seen walking back on the trail.

To me, this guy is very calculating and reasonably "smart". He knows this area very well.

I agree with all of this, and will add that in order to find the area where they crossed the creek, you'd have to be on either A) RL's land or the M family property (the property line is just west of the CS), or...B) Across the creek from the two properties. That area is not visible from the MHB. So BG must have had familiarity well in advance of the spot where they crossed, which like I said is not really too visible from MHB in February, and there's zero visibility in the warmer months.

This tells me he'd been there before, and my hunch is during a few different times of the year. The CS area is jungle-like in the warmer months, so an attack then would be out of the question.

I still maintain this guy did some serious recon, and "hung out" there many times before the murders, just observing.

JMO

 

[Ravenmoon]

@Ravenmoon , I remember you mentioned that your poi liked theater. Could he like literature? Is he an educated man? I have another idea whom he might be copycatting, but for this, one has to like literature, and history, and tales.

My POI is well educated and has a love for the arts in general.
I would like to state, for the record, I am not claiming to know that My POI is definitively the perpetrator.
What I will say is that he has been number one on my radar after doing many hours of research . Many.
Truth be told, I would be happy to find out that my POI is not who I think he is. It would be a relief.
AMOO JMO

 

[Charlot123]

I was Navy and not Army or Marine Corps. That said I grew up hunting in the woods of north LA and southern AR as well as central MO. My experience on joint exercises with the Army was entirely different. I was amazed at how much even the lower ranking enlisted infantry knew about making their way through woods and mountainous terrain. And some of these were folks from the big cities that had not been in these environments prior to joining the Army. Same with the Marines. One time I with an Army medical field unit and I saw the same thing. The soldiers and Marines I served with in joint exercises impressed me with their ability to move and fight in the field. Now Navy and Air Force, that was a different matter altogether. I saw senior enlist sailors and airmen who had no clue as to how deal with those environments. I was very involved in hunting growing up and I learned a lot from these younger soldiers. But that was just my personal experience in the field in joint exercises and others may have different experiences.

Interesting. I know several commercial pilots, and my impression is, many come from the Air Force, and most have stellar IQ. I mean it. So high that it turns people humble. But maybe it makes people slightly theoretical, maybe to become the ace of aces you have to be a little bit of a Sully. After all, your actions are limited by the cockpit, and what you are describing - good geographical orientation - requires open horizon.

 

[coastal]

Interesting discussions finding here today.

To me, the familiarity of the killer to the layout screams that he's explored the area on foot and possibly on googlemaps, etc.

1) He apparently knows that the end of the bridge is a dead end.

2) He knows that when he is standing on the north end of the bridge, he can see unblocked straight lines of sight in both directions: a) Back behind him on trail looking for witnesses and b) looking forward to see the girls once the girls reached the far end of the bridge and were trapped.

3) He knows exactly where to take them down the hill.

4) He apparently knows they can cross the creek to get to a hidden low area to have privacy with muffled seclusion to commit this horrible crime.

5) He knows he can escape back out thru the cemetery (or parallel the road alongside the woods) and therefore not be seen walking back on the trail.

To me, this guy is very calculating and reasonably "smart". He knows this area very well.

I've been thinking about who could be way out in the woods, on a bridge, in Indiana on a Monday, February, afternoon. I found this 2015 Indiana Archaeology Journal:

http://www.state.in.us/dnr/historic/files/hp-2015_ArchaeologyJournal.pdf


...The variety of archaeological sites in Indiana is wide-ranging and impressive. Virtually all of the cultural
groups prehistorically and historically in Indiana are represented archaeologically in one way or
another...

Page 39:
THE PAST MEETS THE PRESENT AT BAUM’S LANDING
Christopher R. Moore Department of Physics & Earth-Space Sciences University of Indianapolis Indianapolis, IN

>>>snip

Below Delphi in the bottom fields in the vicinity of the confluence of Deer Creek and the Wabash River lies an overgrown ruin of concrete and brick. There are a couple of rotting benches and historical signs in what is otherwise a small patch of woods at the edge of an agricultural field. Seventy-five years ago, this ruin was the barns for the Smith Dairy Farm, a local agricultural staple in operation since the 1880s. However, the Smith Dairy Farm, now all but forgotten to all who are too young to remember its sale to Sunshine Farms in 1953, hides an even earlier history–the Daniel Baum homestead (Smith 2002). In September, 2013, the University of Indianapolis (UIndy) began public archaeology investigations at the Smith Dairy ruins and vicinity in hopes of discovering the former location of Baum’s Landing–the location where Daniel Baum, his wife Ascenith, and two other intrepid families landed in their keel boat in April 1825 (Stewart 1872)...

<<<snip

Here is a group of people who are familiar with the woods around Deer Creek and Delphi, and all around Indiana, as well. They are likely to be familiar with others, geologists, loggers, fishermen, kayakers, hikers. Hunters. Rockhounds. Artifact hunters. Locals. LE should ask them what they know about this place.

The whole journal is great reading, IMO.

 

[Howcanppldosuch]

If there is dna, I wonder if local service clubs, rotary, lions etc, could host a ged match drive? Collect many samples from the community. Surely there is a cousin or relative that might participate and unknowingly give up the perp. Just a thought

 

[I wonder]

Yes. The quote is the same way that it was presented in the post.
I do hang on to words that seem subtle , but that could hold significant meaning.
I believe this was carefully said.
So, I would agree that it would seem to indicate a change or movement.

My opinions and my observations.

Thank you. If items were moved from where they initially 'were' to where they now 'are' (at the crime scene/location of the bodies), why and what could they be?

The time he had after the murders appears to be tight and it seems he left the immediate area very soon afterwards. He was seen, I believe both before and after the murders. None of the witnesses mention him carrying anything (they could see), so the items could have been small, he just wasn't seen whilst moving them, or could he have moved them another time? Another day?

What were they? I don't know the area, other than from photos. I'm not familiar enough with the location to know where things are, that only those very familiar with the area know about. Guessing, it could be perhaps that maybe there's a small patch of a (possibly) rare plant/flowers, in the middle of a rarely used thicket, that isn't anywhere else. Are there a few train tracks, that aren't easy to spot from the trail? Is there a place where locals go to 'misbehave' and often leave certain objects behind (condoms/syringes/drink cans) that could be moved? Could he have taken something, flowers, a momento, from the cemetery?

It's hard to know whether the police are assuming only locals leave the trail, with visitors sticking to the paths. If this is the case, it isn't sufficient to suggest that someone is local just because they left the paths.

But if items which would be virtually impossible to just stumble across were moved, BG is either playing games with the crime scene, having watched lots of crime tv shows, or there's a very good reason why.

 

[Charlot123]

I've been thinking about who could be way out in the woods, on a bridge, in Indiana on a Monday, February, afternoon. I found this 2015 Indiana Archaeology Journal:

http://www.state.in.us/dnr/historic/files/hp-2015_ArchaeologyJournal.pdf


...The variety of archaeological sites in Indiana is wide-ranging and impressive. Virtually all of the cultural
groups prehistorically and historically in Indiana are represented archaeologically in one way or
another...

Page 39:
THE PAST MEETS THE PRESENT AT BAUM’S LANDING
Christopher R. Moore Department of Physics & Earth-Space Sciences University of Indianapolis Indianapolis, IN

>>>snip

Below Delphi in the bottom fields in the vicinity of the confluence of Deer Creek and the Wabash River lies an overgrown ruin of concrete and brick. There are a couple of rotting benches and historical signs in what is otherwise a small patch of woods at the edge of an agricultural field. Seventy-five years ago, this ruin was the barns for the Smith Dairy Farm, a local agricultural staple in operation since the 1880s. However, the Smith Dairy Farm, now all but forgotten to all who are too young to remember its sale to Sunshine Farms in 1953, hides an even earlier history–the Daniel Baum homestead (Smith 2002). In September, 2013, the University of Indianapolis (UIndy) began public archaeology investigations at the Smith Dairy ruins and vicinity in hopes of discovering the former location of Baum’s Landing–the location where Daniel Baum, his wife Ascenith, and two other intrepid families landed in their keel boat in April 1825 (Stewart 1872)...

<<<snip

Here is a group of people who are familiar with the woods around Deer Creek and Delphi, and all around Indiana, as well. They are likely to be familiar with others, geologists, loggers, fishermen, kayakers, hikers. Hunters. Rockhounds. Artifact hunters. Locals. LE should ask them what they know about this place.

The whole journal is great reading, IMO.

Oh I bet! Thank you! I bet it is great reading. Very interesting.

Who of there people would kill young women, even if they are interested in archeology of practice some old rituals?

We don’t even know if they were real.

However, that the perp could have been interested in archeology, is possible. All archeology is about looking, finding something, and then trying to understand, “what was it for?” “What did they use it for?” “Were these round blocks in a semi-circle evidence of an altar, or something different?”

“How did they move the blocks?”

From my understanding, listening to Ives, the perp left tons of ruses, puzzles, not unlike what archeologists find.

So the police, and us, are thinking. “How did they cross the creek? Did they? How did he make an exit?” Also, the police, knowing the essence of physical evidence, is thinking, “what was it for?”

For nothing. To make them think. To laugh at them, and us?

I think this person pretends to be the decent member of the society, and as such, goes through the hoops. But deep inside, he despises the small-town mentality, maybe because he had to adhere to it for a while.

I think he is not young. Because some things he could do, dreams to do, to change his life, he can not.

And this is where the anger comes from. I think one morning he woke up, looked around, and thought it would be his life, forever.

I think he is constantly suicidal. But before he takes ultimate control over own life, he tries to do it with others’.

MOO. I would feel sorry for the person having to constantly conform, but can not understand the sadistic part of it.

Unfortunately Liberty German's video only provided a general description of this person on the bridge. As long as there is no detailed information about the description I think LE has probably received thousands of tips in regards to either Liberty German's video, sketch #1, or sketch #2.

It gets back to human nature and how we perceive things. I look at Liberty German's video and see an older man who is overdressed for the trails that day. His clothing looks like someone who is a truck driver that goes to cold docks to get loaded. But this is also because I worked in freight logistics and my past experience probably plays in psychologically in how I view Liberty German's video.

Maybe. He looked raw, and maybe this habit of spitting? I also keep on wondering about the thing on his neck. My first thought is, nebulizer (asthma? Hence the spitting?). The second one is, firefighters lamp. MOO.

 

[Justice101]

Thanks for posting! I’m glad the media is still reporting in this case.

I found this comment very interesting:

Ives said: 'Even though at the crime scene there was a lot of physical evidence of one sort of another which would lead logically to one person or another, it never led to one particular person.'

What do y’all make of it?

It sounds like the crime scene could have had garments, shoes, possibly a tent, plastic flowers from the cemetery, trail brochure, cigarette pack, etc... of SOMEONE ELSE'S that may have been either already been there that were "reappropriated" for staging... or were brought there intentionally to try to frame someone else.

It sounds like this guy was way too sinisterly smart. However, I still think he will not outsmart them in the long run.

 

[Justice101]

removed