Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #128

[Yemelyan]

Altered from how it should have originally looked like.

In this case, I remember one interview of DC. He was standing on the bridge. The way I understood him, what he said was, he gave the CS one look and felt nauseated, so I assume there must have been something nasty there.

The previous poster assumed that maybe, the person who saw the girls did not see the deers (assuming, the girls were standing?). I think, not, because the CS was not easily seen.

Okay, "anything altered" is not the definition of staging that homicide investigators work with.

Laura Pettler, the criminologist who literally wrote the book on crime scene staging in homicides, defines staging as: "Crime scene staging is the physical manifestation of a person’s imagination for how things should appear when trying to turn a murder scene into a legitimate death scene.” This is from her book "Crime Scene Staging Dynamics in Homicide Cases."

Aspects of the scene that are altered because they brought the offender pleasure or psychological fulfillment are not included in the definition of "staging." So just because a crime scene was violent or nauseating to investigators, it does not immediately follow that staging - which alters the crime scene specifically to confuse the nature of the crime - has occurred.

The task of LE in figuring out which aspects of the scene might reflect staging and which do not, is a job with many pitfalls but Pettler says that a thorough and accurate victimology will normally uncover it.

 

[ShamelessObserver]

Does anyone know how the two girls were killed? Would their parents even know for example?? Or can the police not release that info, even to the immediate family members of the deceaseD?

 

[Skully]

Does anyone know how the two girls were killed? Would their parents even know for example?? Or can the police not release that info, even to the immediate family members of the deceaseD?

I don't think they would tell the family. I know we don't. It is something only the killer will know and that helps with a true confession, if they come forward.

 

[ShamelessObserver]

I don't think they would tell the family. I know we don't. It is something only the killer will know and that helps with a true confession, if they come forward.

Is that for certain though? So, after 4 years, the family still do not know how their daughters were killed?? Surely that is unethical on the part of LE. I am just wondering because if the family do indeed know then they may reveal more info if they lose faith in LE.

 

[Skully]

Is that for certain though? So, after 4 years, the family still do not know how their daughters were killed?? Surely that is unethical on the part of LE. I am just wondering because if the family do indeed know then they may reveal more info if they lose faith in LE.

I don't know why you would think it unethical. It protects the case and facts from some nut job confessing or someone just trying to pin it on an ex. If you don't know how they died, you don't know who did it. Families get the detail at trial, and most find it hard to hear the details. There is nothing unethical about protecting the case.

 

[ShamelessObserver]

I don't know why you would think it unethical. It protects the case and facts from some nut job confessing or someone just trying to pin it on an ex. If you don't know how they died, you don't know who did it. Families get the detail at trial, and most find it hard to hear the details. There is nothing unethical about protecting the case.

So you think it's right that two young teenagers were killed 4 years ago but they families shouldn't know how? Highly questionable IMO. Was there not a coroner's report or something similar?

 

[Yemelyan]

So you think it's right that two young teenagers were killed 4 years ago but they families shouldn't know how? Highly questionable IMO. Was there not a coroner's report or something similar?

Autopsy report in this case was sealed by a judge.

 

[TedMac]

Autopsy report in this case was sealed by a judge.

Yes the autopsy was sealed, but the families probably saw the bodies prior to the funeral. If the cause of death was obvious, they may know. If the cause was not obvious, they may not know.

 

[ShamelessObserver]

Would the family not have been present for the autopsy? Sorry for lack of autopsy knowledge lol.

 

[Yemelyan]

Yes the autopsy was sealed, but the families probably saw the bodies prior to the funeral. If the cause of death was obvious, they may know. If the cause was not obvious, they may not know.

Yes, depending on the exact cause of death the families may have an inkling. I'd say it's very unlikely that details or the actual autopsy report has been shared with them (no matter what rumors are swirling). One family member has said publicly that she doesn't want to know right now. I imagine that having an official position of "we have not been told" makes it easier on them as they are hounded less about revealing details.

 

[Yemelyan]

Would the family not have been present for the autopsy? Sorry for lack of autopsy knowledge lol.

Nope. At the stage when the autopsy took place, no one had been ruled out so it would be a major breach of protocols. It's never done in criminal cases. I don't want to reveal too much about my occupation so let's just say, as a family member you wouldn't want to see what happens at autopsy. And I'll put here a JMO.

 

[TedMac]

<modsnip>

As quoted above, the autopsy was sealed.

 

[TedMac]

Yes, depending on the exact cause of death the families may have an inkling. I'd say it's very unlikely that details or the actual autopsy report has been shared with them (no matter what rumors are swirling). One family member has said publicly that she doesn't want to know right now. I imagine that having an official position of "we have not been told" makes it easier on them as they are hounded less about revealing details.

Totally agree.

 

[steeltowngirl]

2/1/21 The Unsolved Casefile: Liberty German & Abigail Williams - Court TV

 

[Dotrat]

Kelsi said in the Infamous Indy podcast:

Feb 14

I was standing on the trail that’s right under the bridge looking out into the woods and somebody yelled up that they had found a shoe.

And when they had found the shoe they had asked what kind of shoes the girls were wearing, and they yelled up the type of shoe that Libby was wearing. So I yelled down and told them that.

Actually then the person that had asked that had put up their phone and saw two deer in the ground moving. And so he was looking to see what it might be, and he saw two deer standing up there, and when he saw them, he moved the camera down, and that’s when we found them.

I know this is the account that has been given but it was given by the searcher, Kelsi was not directly next to this person and did not see the deer herself. It may be absolutely how it happened but there is also the possibility... MOO

 

[dub]

Indiana man charged with killing wife whose head was found in cellar

Please bare with me as this is all speculation, however in August 2020 there was a man in Crawfordsville, IN that had killed his wife then decapitated her. He disposed of her body off a bridge near a wooded area and he kept her head in their cellar / basement.
Crawfordsville is under 50 miles from Delphi. Details were not given as to how or why the events with his wife took place.
When It all happened I searched facebook, found his profile and found that before his job at the time of killing his wife, he worked in medical supply sales and traveled. I can no longer find his fb page.
Looking at his mug shot I feel he has the same body type and face shape ( what can be seen ) as the unidentified Delphi suspect. If he had a traveling job at one time, during the Delphi and Iowa cases, then it could be possible that it is him and I'm speculating that he murdered his wife because she was questioning him or something.

I went down a massive rabbit hole on this back in August, and I'm surprised this is the first time (at least to my knowledge) this has come up on here.

I'm in the camp that believes Evansdale and Delphi are probably not related, and I have no reason whatsoever to think this guy was responsible for Evansdale, but at the time this story came out I was defintely curious as to what he was up to on 2/13/17.

To me he is an absolute dead ringer for the OBG sketch--even more so in the pictures on his now-deleted fb than his mug shot--and is very close in age, height, weight to what LE has suggested. Also per fb his style of dress is just like the video BG, although I didn't see any pictures of him wearing what could be the exact clothes seen in the video aside from generic jeans.

However,

a.) I couldn't connect him or any of his family directly to Delphi (or, in terms of Evansdale, anywhere in Iowa) in any way.

b.) More importantly, if he was responsible, this would most likely be known by now due to DNA... Unless it turns out they don't have DNA after all.

 

[sandy_80]

Is that for certain though? So, after 4 years, the family still do not know how their daughters were killed?? Surely that is unethical on the part of LE. I am just wondering because if the family do indeed know then they may reveal more info if they lose faith in LE.

I think that they do know and were told. <modsnip>

 

[ShamelessObserver]

That mugshot of the wife killer does look similar to BG

MOO

 

[Charlot123]

Okay, "anything altered" is not the definition of staging that homicide investigators work with.

Laura Pettler, the criminologist who literally wrote the book on crime scene staging in homicides, defines staging as: "Crime scene staging is the physical manifestation of a person’s imagination for how things should appear when trying to turn a murder scene into a legitimate death scene.” This is from her book "Crime Scene Staging Dynamics in Homicide Cases."

Aspects of the scene that are altered because they brought the offender pleasure or psychological fulfillment are not included in the definition of "staging." So just because a crime scene was violent or nauseating to investigators, it does not immediately follow that staging - which alters the crime scene specifically to confuse the nature of the crime - has occurred.

The task of LE in figuring out which aspects of the scene might reflect staging and which do not, is a job with many pitfalls but Pettler says that a thorough and accurate victimology will normally uncover it.

Understand. Well, hard to discuss, then, without using a different word, and I don’t want to use it, in fact, am avoiding it, because I really don’t know how the CS looked like.

But - maybe more reason to release more information about the case? If LE sincerely wants the crime to be solved?

 

[BigTexas]

What leads you to believe this?

It has been almost 2 years since any new information has been released. There are several basic facts about the case that have never been released. They may know who did it and just don't have enough evidence to convict at the moment. I feel like the course will stay this way. MOO