IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #46

[AFTM]

This was discussed here several threads back and as I said, I don't know if it was ever confirmed or not. My point was that if searchers were right there and the girls were also there all along, today's reference to searcher's not looking upward might have some relevance. I have no idea if that's what happened or if we know for sure whether or not there was a grid search, or even a crossing over of the spot where they were. From what I gather, the media didn't even get the location right and I don't think there's any official x marks the spot of any search or body location. There have been shots of an area and references to how far from the water as I understand it.

What is the reference to of not looking upward???

Is someone implying that the girls were hanging???




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[Molecularblonde]

When Libby took the video from which the photos of BG were taken, she was further south than he was, possibly off the bridge altogether.

I agree.
And according to Mr. Hughes, BG was about 73 feet away from Libby when she took the video.

 

[Molecularblonde]

I don't believe they were killed elsewhere. I believe they were walked to the location where they died.

I agree. I honk the girls were shuffled down from the bridge, and killed away they waded through the creek.

 

[Bird of Paradise]

Absolute agreement! Less about protection and more of a show of presence!

Again, WADR a show of presence for what? The man has been a hot topic of SM and received death threats from same. One could also look at this as the top brass is personally escorting him to send a message that they will not tolerate SM lynchings.

 

[Jethro4WS]

This was discussed here several threads back and as I said, I don't know if it was ever confirmed or not. My point was that if searchers were right there and the girls were also there all along, today's reference to searcher's not looking upward might have some relevance. I have no idea if that's what happened or if we know for sure whether or not there was a grid search, or even a crossing over of the spot where they were. From what I gather, the media didn't even get the location right and I don't think there's any official x marks the spot of any search or body location. There have been shots of an area and references to how far from the water as I understand it.

On the twitter feed of a reporter (Richard Van Wyck RTV6) there is a video which shows flowers placed quite a distance within the crime scene taped off area (possibly on the Saturday or Sunday after the murders). It is always possible that the person that placed the flowers knew they spot, but then again maybe not.

 

[Bird of Paradise]

What is the reference to of not looking upward???

Is someone implying that the girls were hanging???



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Yes a few pages back someone was implying that.

 

[Wsimm]

The water temperature was likely in the mid to upper 30's. Would you, as teens, go traipsing through water that cold? That would make your feet quite cold and they would stay cold. The brain's response to such things is to make it worse by restricting circulation to the extremities such as your feet (along with hands are the first things). So, that is what the problem is with crossing the creek at all.

It gets worse if it were any deeper than ankle high. Wet clothes, particularly denim, soak in a lot water (I am sure you know just how much heavier wet jeans are compared to dry jeans) and that will end up in contact with the skin. So cold legs that won't get any warmer - water is 20 times more efficient in transferring heat than air and in this circumstance the water is going to draw heat from the body remarkably fast until the temperature of the wet denim and the surface skin of the legs are the same which will be quite a lot below 98.6 degrees (much closer to the air temperature which was about 43 degrees) and the brain will respond to this by restricting blood flow to the upper skin layers of the legs. All of the restricted blow flow reduces oxygen to the muscles and makes it harder to use those muscles. You tire quickly - well, because the muscles need the oxygen.

The only way to not be really cold is to remove the wet clothes/shoes and replace with dry clothes/shoes in a warm place.

BG would have this problem. I can't imagine that he would find having very cold feet (or worse, legs) bearable for any length of time. It is more than being wet. "slippery rocks" or "this could be dangerous" would or should have been the least of the concerns. If BG and the girls crossed the creek - which I strongly believe did not happen - BG would have discovered all of this the hard way.

If a gun or any weapon was pointed at me threatening my life you're darn tootin I'd cross that creek! Heck, I'd cross it waist deep and I'm not a great swimmer!

 

[WebSight]

Thank you for this. There have been so may posts with questions that can be easily answered by looking in the media threads. (Heck, even a quick Google search). And I am grateful for all the effort of those who put together timelines which benefit all of us.

I also think that if we rely on others to find those links or videos, there is also the tendency to ask for interpretation as well.

So instead of being equal members of the team, each fortified with information, and sometimes coming to the table with some totally new tidbit, ready to share our thoughts and bounce ideas around, the dialogue can become a bit one sided, more like teacher and students.

While I do think we are blessed with veterans who really mentor the newbies (like myself) we also have a responsibility to come prepared and the media threads should be one of the first things we tackle, especially as they are so generously provided for us.

I would also like to say how grateful I am for the patience of the seasoned members when I first joined and the good spirit in which they answered all my questions:loveyou:

Just my observation. And with that, I bid you all good night.:bed:

 

[AFTM]

Yes, I think we view hanging as suspended high up and other presentations that go with that scenario, but that's not necessarily true.

One of the reasons I wonder if this is at least a possibility is the discussion that arose around searches (I don't know if it was ever confirmed or not)...a couple of posters said that there was no way the first searchers could have missed the girls in the location where they were found because of the grid and cross sections of the search where people would have literally walked right in or across the path of the bodies. There was then discussion of this as pointing to the girls not having been there initially and later moved there. I don't see the latter as a possibility simply because that's work and energy and depending on how they were killed, might have left blood/dragging or other evidence of where another scene was, and this doesn't seem to be the case based on what we know (which I realize is little). It would also be risky and at night would be time-intensive. So, it occurred to me that some sort of hanging scenario might have been the case.

I don't say this to simply speculate, because I really don't do much of that, at least not on forum. But given the demeanor and some of the remarks of LE that suggest this was a disturbing scene and some of the discussions on searchers possibly having not seen them hiding in plain sight so to speak, it occurred to me.

Whatever happened, my fear is this is a deeply disturbed individual who was out to do far more than spontaneously murder two girls who saw a drug deal or some other such activity. I watched the pressers again and there was something more sinister that compelled the attention of the FBI's director and the unlimited resources that are available to this case, than a po'd hunter, meth dealer, or 77 year old alcoholic probation violator. At least that's my take.

I myself have often wondered about the aspect of hanging.... The search party at night would never of seen them...

But I do not believe they were murdered because they saw anything... The motive was BG was a predator after one or both of the girls for his own gratification... Just like my sister's murderer. Those of us that don't have that type of mind don't understand this motive so we look for everything else..

The motive is there staring you in the face but you don't see it... The motive was one or both of them...




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[Tricia]

I know of no reliable and approved source that states Abby and Libby did not have their clothes on when found.

Please do not state this as fact. We have removed many posts saying this like it is a fact. It is not.

Don't post this unless you can provide a link that backs up the claim.

Thank you,
Tricia

 

[MistyWaters]

No link that I know of. I expect a true grid search was not done on the night of the 13th.

I don't think so either.

February 13th:

"Around 5:30 p.m. Monday, officers responded to reports of two missing girls.
Police say the girls were supposed to be picked up by family members at a predetermined time and place, but when family arrived the girls were not there......<>..........Based on the information given by family and friends, police do not believe foul play is involved and have been given no information that would lead them to believe the girls are in any immediate danger, other than exposure to outside elements."
http://fox59.com/2017/02/14/carroll-county-authorities-continue-search-for-missing-teenagers/

Something I can't quite understand and I hadn't noticed this discussed before --

Are Snapchat videos instant?

Because if they are and the interaction with BG contained anything the least bit ominous, I don't think the families wouldn't have waited until 5:30pm to contact LE. Nor would it be stated no foul is believed to be involved.

Anyone, what's another possible explanation why alarm bells weren't immediately ringing on the 13th?

 

[Bemused]

No link that I know of. I expect a true grid search was not done on the night of the 13th.

This news report was done the night of the 13th. Is the information reported about deputies, drones, and DNR incorrect?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Tfi2WI9fo5o

 

[Jethro4WS]

Okay, this is going to be really unpopular, but does it really matter what end of the bridge they went off, where the "down the hill" happened? We have our theories, of course. They were found where they were found. We have all the released photos, which seem to point to the south end, but what, exactly, does that prove. If they went off the north end, how does that help us? Just asking the question. I'm really not trying to cause controversy here.


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Generally speaking every single aspect of the crime matters. Every element tells you something about the killer(s). Ironically, in most crimes LE doesn't care about every element and especially prosecutors don't care about most of them as they only need the things that meet the statutory requirements to prove a crime and who did it. However, when you don't have the slightest clue as to who the perpetrator(s) is then every element is important.

So, for example, understanding the elements and the order of the elements can give us some insight on whether or not the killer(s) were organized, the level of planning, their use of time, their understanding of the topography, etc. Most important, if possible, is to identify any possible mistakes the perpetrator(s) made as there is no such thing as the perfect crime. Many of these characteristics will be present in the day to day lives of the killer(s). These aren't the kinds of skills that only manifest themselves when they go out to kill.

Because LE is holding back information much time and discussion concerns discovering things that LE already knows (but won't tell us) so we can make better informed theories of the crime and use that to better identify potential suspects in order to make the tip that gets the killer(s).

 

[Yvettea]

I don't think so either.

February 13th:

"Around 5:30 p.m. Monday, officers responded to reports of two missing girls.
Police say the girls were supposed to be picked up by family members at a predetermined time and place, but when family arrived the girls were not there......<>..........Based on the information given by family and friends, police do not believe foul play is involved and have been given no information that would lead them to believe the girls are in any immediate danger, other than exposure to outside elements."
http://fox59.com/2017/02/14/carroll-county-authorities-continue-search-for-missing-teenagers/

Something I can't quite understand and I hadn't noticed this discussed before --

Are Snapchat videos instant?

Because if they are and the interaction with BG contained anything the least bit ominous, I don't think the families wouldn't have waited until 5:30pm to contact LE. Nor would it be stated no foul is believed to be involved.

Anyone, what's another possible explanation why alarm bells weren't immediately ringing on the 13th?

If LE had the phone they had the video unless they didn't watch it until the next day. Same would be true if the video went to Snapchat.

 

[WebSight]

I don't think so either.

February 13th:

"Around 5:30 p.m. Monday, officers responded to reports of two missing girls.
Police say the girls were supposed to be picked up by family members at a predetermined time and place, but when family arrived the girls were not there......<>..........Based on the information given by family and friends, police do not believe foul play is involved and have been given no information that would lead them to believe the girls are in any immediate danger, other than exposure to outside elements."
http://fox59.com/2017/02/14/carroll-county-authorities-continue-search-for-missing-teenagers/

Something I can't quite understand and I hadn't noticed this discussed before --

Are Snapchat videos instant?

Because if they are and the interaction with BG contained anything the least bit ominous, I don't think the families wouldn't have waited until 5:30pm to contact LE. Nor would it be stated no foul is believed to be involved.

Anyone, what's another possible explanation why alarm bells weren't immediately ringing on the 13th?

I was just signing off but reading through the last page and so I wanted to respond.

It may be that the video was just taken and stored on the phone, with out any sm component or cloud. We take videos on the phone all the time when our girls are riding horses and then bring them home and transfer them to our computer. There is no live link. So, that is a possibility I think. That is why I also lean to the notion that LE does have Libby's phone.

 

[Molecularblonde]

If a gun or any weapon was pointed at me threatening my life you're darn tootin I'd cross that creek! Heck, I'd cross it waist deep and I'm not a great swimmer!

Ditto. I am five two on a good day. Even a smaller guy with a bow and arrow would terrify me. And I'm a runner.

 

[Burnt Toast]

Families do not choose date of death. Coroner does that.


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families choose the date of death for the obituary, not the coroner.

 

[Burnt Toast]

Someone who used to write obits for a newspaper commented earlier. In his/her experience, obits were often rushed to meet a deadline and often were not precise about dates.

yes, and they work with the information provided to them by the family.

 

[AFTM]

Yes, I believe that the cemetery is very important as an access point. However, I believe it was only used as the place where a vehicle was parked when bringing the girls to where they were found - since I believe the girls were taken elsewhere for a significant amount of time (many hours) and killed elsewhere.

I thought they found a lot of blood at crime scene. If so, they were killed there, you do not bleed to much after death. The heart stops beating and pumping the blood.

Just a thought....


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[otto]

BBM
My understanding is that it is not a private driveway until it gets to the house. There is no gate. I have been hoping one of our local people would drive over there and report on it.

It is a deadend road that leads to a private property, so not exactly a good place to park for a quick getaway with two abducted children. I don't believe that the children were driven to another location and then returned to the place were they were last seen. That doesn't make any sense. A murderer who takes children away from the abduction location can leave the children in any remote location, thus making it much more difficult to both find the children and get caught.

I'm convinced that the children crossed the river, were murdered, and the suspect left in a vehicle parked nearby.