IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #47

[stanton01]

From the beginning, I have been uncomfortable with the snap of Abby on the bridge. To me, she looks unsure, perhaps afraid, and almost posed. A day of fun, your best friend and a video to memorialize your adventures. Is this how you would look, knowing that you were being videoed? Perhaps not. Is it possible that BG used Libby's phone to make this video, or take this photo? That may be the "twist"...BG was filming the events. IMO

 

[Justice101]

From the beginning, I have been uncomfortable with the snap of Abby on the bridge. To me, she looks unsure, perhaps afraid, and almost posed. A day of fun, your best friend and a video to memorialize your adventures. Is this how you would look, knowing that you were being videoed? Perhaps not. Is it possible that BG used Libby's phone to make this video, or take this photo? That may be the "twist"...BG was filming the events. IMO

Well, it's possible. But if the timestamps are correct, then he would have had to be there on that end of the bridge for 10+ minutes... a LONG time to expose yourself to someone else seeing you...so I sort of don't think it is really all that likely.

 

[No it's not]

http://fox59.com/2017/04/08/families-of-abby-and-libby-thank-community-for-support/

-Nin

 

[Bird of Paradise]

From the beginning, I have been uncomfortable with the snap of Abby on the bridge. To me, she looks unsure, perhaps afraid, and almost posed. A day of fun, your best friend and a video to memorialize your adventures. Is this how you would look, knowing that you were being videoed? Perhaps not. Is it possible that BG used Libby's phone to make this video, or take this photo? That may be the "twist"...BG was filming the events. IMO

This was discussed a few threads ago and those in the know said that is a popular pose these days for pictures.

 

[jillycat]

Not that DNA is the be all end all of a case, depending on the source and environment from where it's recovered, but surely if they've had DNA from that scene for nearly two months, and they surely have DNA from RL, and how long now since they searched his home and property and how long since they fast-tracked things??, it follows that he is not this killer.

But then I never thought he was because I think it's an SK.

I also think if there is more video and audio, which there surely is, LE/FBI have long since sorted out whether or not the person they're seeing and hearing is RL.

And yes, that's a load of billboards for a local 77 year old guy who violated probation and is theorized to be the #1 suspect in a small town's double homicide.

 

[Bemused]

http://fox59.com/2017/04/08/families-of-abby-and-libby-thank-community-for-support/

-Nin

Thanks for this link.

What's struck me is I have yet to see or hear a single criticism of LE from anyone in the families.

ETA I live in a major metro area so it's not uncommon to see news clips or SM posts of families of murder victims railing about how long LE is taking to solve a case.

 

[asyousay]

Surely if there was more audio and LE was at a loss then they would release more of it ?

Down the hill isn't really much to go on imo

 

[otto]

I wonder what sort of activity day and night? Could someone mark this (old?) access on a map to see if the perp gained quick access to and from the trails and bridge that we are unaware of?

The land at drop off location marked on this map is owned by the Mears Holding Company

"A carved wooden sign that was on County Road 300 North, on private property that was owned by the late Sherry Mears, has been taken down and the parking area that was there has been barred to keep people from parking there."

http://www.newsbug.info/monticello_...cle_9f53101a-199f-11e7-b5f4-a3a21ffea83d.html

Land owner search: https://beacon.schneidercorp.com/Application.aspx?AppID=377&LayerID=5553&PageTypeID=1

 

[Elley Mae]

In reference to 4)

The manner of death in a forensic case is generally homicide or suicide, as opposed to natural causes. The cause of death could be from gunshot or knife-inflicted wounds, blunt force trauma, hanging, etc. The mechanism of death refers to the actual agent used, such as poison, baseball bat, gun, kitchen knife, etc.

http://www.officer.com/article/10249533/forensic-autopsy-a-body-of-clues

https://public.courts.in.gov/mycase...HVTVNemd4TnpFNU1EUXdPak0xTlRjME1qY3lObU09In19

Petition to Seal Autopsy Reports filed

Filed By:
State of Indiana


File Stamp:
03/28/2017

Order Issued

On March 28, 2017, State of Indiana, by Prosecuting Attorney Robert T. Ives, filed a Petition to seal the autopsy reports concerning Abigail Williams and Liberty German. The Court, being duly advised, FINDS as follows: 1) On February 13, 2017 Abigail Williams and Liberty German were killed just outside of Delphi in Carroll County, Indiana. 2) An investigation into these killings is ongoing. 3) No charges have been filed with connection to the killings. 4) The details related to the manner and mechanism of the deaths of Ms. Williams and Ms. German, if they remain confidential, make it easier for investigators to recognize a false confession as it is improbable for an innocent person to accurately describe the details of the deaths without personal knowledge. 5) Investigators are able to maintain a tactical advantage when speaking with a suspect if the manner and mechanism of the deaths of Ms. Williams and Ms. German are not made public. The Court, being duly advised, ORDERS as follows: State of Indiana has demonstrated by a preponderance of the evidence that public access or dissemination of the information contained in Ind. Code 36-2-14-18(a) would create significant risks of harm to the criminal investigation of the deaths of Ms. Williams and Ms. German. State of Indiana's Petition to Seal Autopsy Reports, filed March 28, 2017, is GRANTED. The Court ORDERS the Carroll County Coroner to PROHIBIT public inspection and copying the following information related to Ms. Abigail Williams or Ms. Liberty German: 1) The name, age, address, sex, and race of the deceased. 2) The address where the dead body was found, or if there is no address the location where the dead body was found and, if different, the address where the death occurred, or if there is no address the location where the death occurred. 3) The name of the agency to which the death was reported and the name of the person reporting the death. 4) The name of any public official or governmental employee present at the scene of the death and the name of the person certifying or pronouncing the death. 5) Information regarding an autopsy (requested or performed) limited to the date, the person who performed the autopsy, where the autopsy was performed, and a conclusion as to: a. the probable cause of death; b. the probable manner of death; and c. the probable mechanism of death. 6) The location to which the body was removed, the person determining the location to which the body was removed, and the authority under which the decision to remove the body was made. 7) The records required to be filed by a coroner under section 6 [IC 36-2-14-6] of this chapter and the verdict and the written report required under section 10 [IC 36-2-14-10] of this chapter. (Collectively the confidential autopsy information ) The confidential autopsy information shall remain confidential until further order of this Court. The Court shall enter further order if the Prosecuting Attorney notifies the Court that the investigation has concluded. The Court shall enter further order if any person demonstrates that access to the confidential autopsy information would not create a significant risk to the criminal investigation of the deaths, AND the public interest will be served by allowing access to the confidential autopsy information, per form. (Copy to State, Coroner 3/28/2017,HNC)

Judicial Officer:
Diener, Benjamin A.


Order Signed:
03/28/2017

 

[stanton01]

IMO, if a person with a concealed weapon were standing behind you as you videoed, it might appear to others that nothing unusual was in play. Perhaps, just a friendly event. A demand to smile and look relaxed might further reduce concerns by passers by. That could have lasted within the constraints of the time stamps. IMO only.

 

[jillycat]

Surely if there was more audio and LE was at a loss then they would release more of it ?

Down the hill isn't really much to go on imo

They said they hoped they didn't have to release more. Presumably they either don't want to give up more of what they know about the crime or it's too disturbing to release. Or both.

 

[indycindy]

In reference to 4)

The manner of death in a forensic case is generally homicide or suicide, as opposed to natural causes. The cause of death could be from gunshot or knife-inflicted wounds, blunt force trauma, hanging, etc. The mechanism of death refers to the actual agent used, such as poison, baseball bat, gun, kitchen knife, etc.

http://www.officer.com/article/10249533/forensic-autopsy-a-body-of-clues

That's fine and dandy but I seem to remember the autopsies were done over in Terre Haute, IN. Wouldn't they need to be sealed in Vigo County also??

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[Koshka]

And it's not necessarily a screw up if they don't solve the case... maybe there was no evidence left at the crime scene and the tips were not relevant to the perpetrator.

Yes, even if evidence was left at the crime scene, it's no guarantee that LE will be able to solve the case. In that regard, this case has reminded me of one I read about several years ago on a genealogy blog. Back in the 1990s, a teenage girl went to her high school on a Saturday morning to participate in band/drill team (something like that). She was found murdered in the woods across the street from the school. There were a lot of activities going on that morning at the school, so several people saw the suspect leaving the woods. LE was able to get descriptions and to work up a sketch of the suspect. They got thousands of tips, and among other evidence at the scene were able to get the suspect's DNA. So, descriptions, sketch, tips, DNA, but they were never able to identify or find him. Not their fault; they tried everything and continue to try to match the DNA (that's why it was in a genealogy blog) many years later. Sometimes even their best efforts simply can't produce results.

 

[Shiressleuth]

The land at drop off location marked on this map is owned by the Mears Holding Company

"A carved wooden sign that was on County Road 300 North, on private property that was owned by the late Sherry Mears, has been taken down and the parking area that was there has been barred to keep people from parking there."

http://www.newsbug.info/monticello_...cle_9f53101a-199f-11e7-b5f4-a3a21ffea83d.html

Land owner search: https://beacon.schneidercorp.com/Application.aspx?AppID=377&LayerID=5553&PageTypeID=1

View attachment 114675

And this is the land owner to the west and directly next to the RL owned plot where the bodies were found.

 

[asyousay]

They said they hoped they didn't have to release more. Presumably they either don't want to give up more of what they know about the crime or it's too disturbing to release. Or both.

Thank you

Yes the poor family's if it's recorded a lot of the crime.

 

[Boxeador]

MOO The country may appear empty, but any person or car draws attention. Witnesses are apt to appear at any time popping from tree lines, from hiking, going to a neighbors, and mid afternoon people are getting into their cars for random short errands. Farmers and people in rural settings notice things - even far away at the tree line, like a car that seems out of place.
I think the potential for being seen is pretty high. Parking mid afternoon anywhere along the 300 Rd. side of the bridge and then going on to the bridge trail walking out back to the car without a single witness of him or a car driving all the back out to Highway 25? Although it is possible, it it just seems unlikely, and somehow too lucky. And if he was scoping the site out days earlier that only increases the chances somone noticed him. Also it seems to me significant that BGs jeans look like they came from a dryer that morning *(someone observant on WS said that early on) and they don't look like he drove lor walked in them long. He could have changed into them, but getting dressed in or next to a car is big eye catching activity, noticable at ta distance. MOO

 

[MistyWaters]

I respect your opinions, but a double murder takes a lot more than a single piece of evidence, even an audio/video recording, to get a conviction that will stick.

It's going to take as long as it takes for LE to investigate and present their case to the DA. They have already indicated this case is complex.

Similar to CCTV footage, a video indicating the girls identified their attacker and the person was a known local, that would result in LE naming a suspect. Instead the grainy footage and "down the hill" gathering 15000 tips is an indication the net is still spread quite wide.

In that LE have indicated the case to be complex suggests to me the high possibly the murderer was unrecognized. My theory is that it was a diabolical opportunist, a serial killer who is already long gone from Delphi area.

I certainly hope you're right about taking time. Statistics indicate the longer a case remains unsolved, the greater chance nobody will be successfully prosecuted. I only recently noticed it mentioned another alarming trend --

"Today, the national "clearance rate" for murders, which means the case ends in an arrest, is 64.1%. Five decades ago, it was above 90%."
http://www.businessinsider.com/why-do-so-many-murders-go-unsolved-2015-3


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[Bemused]

MOO The country may appear empty, but any person or car draws attention. Witnesses are apt to appear at any time popping from tree lines, from hiking, going to a neighbors, and mid afternoon people are getting into their cars for random short errands. Farmers and people in rural settings notice things - even far away at the tree line, like a car that seems out of place.
I think the potential for being seen is pretty high. Parking mid afternoon anywhere along the 300 Rd. side of the bridge and then going on to the bridge trail walking out back to the car without a single witness of him or a car driving all the back out to Highway 25? Although it is possible, it it just seems unlikely, and somehow too lucky. And if he was scoping the site out days earlier that only increases the chances somone noticed him. Also it seems to me significant that BGs jeans look like they came from a dryer that morning *(someone observant on WS said that early on) and they don't look like he drove lor walked in them long. He could have changed into them, but getting dressed in or next to a car is big eye catching activity, noticable at ta distance. MOO

IMO, he's a local, even if not RL, and he wouldn't have caused anyone to think anything of it because they're accustomed to seeing him in the area. IMO, no car was needed.

 

[otto]

MOO The country may appear empty, but any person or car draws attention. Witnesses are apt to appear at any time popping from tree lines, from hiking, going to a neighbors, and mid afternoon people are getting into their cars for random short errands. Farmers and people in rural settings notice things - even far away at the tree line, like a car that seems out of place.
I think the potential for being seen is pretty high. Parking mid afternoon anywhere along the 300 Rd. side of the bridge and then going on to the bridge trail walking out back to the car without a single witness of him or a car driving all the back out to Highway 25? Although it is possible, it it just seems unlikely, and somehow too lucky. And if he was scoping the site out days earlier that only increases the chances somone noticed him. Also it seems to me significant that BGs jeans look like they came from a dryer that morning *(someone observant on WS said that early on) and they don't look like he drove lor walked in them long. He could have changed into them, but getting dressed in or next to a car is big eye catching activity, noticable at ta distance. MOO

I don't think anyone would pay much attention to a car parked at the South end of the cemetery.

 

[Bemused]

Similar to CCTV footage, a video indicating the girls identified their attacker and the person was a known local, that would result in LE naming a suspect. Instead the grainy footage and "down the hill" gathering 15000 tips is an indication the net is still spread quite wide.

In that LE have indicated the case to be complex suggests to me the high possibly the murderer was unrecognized. My theory is that it was a diabolical opportunist, a serial killer who is already long gone from Delphi area.

I certainly hope you're right about taking time. Statistics indicate the longer a case remains unsolved, the greater chance nobody will be successfully prosecuted. I only recently noticed it mentioned another alarming trend --

"Today, the national "clearance rate" for murders, which means the case ends in an arrest, is 64.1%. Five decades ago, it was above 90%."
http://www.businessinsider.com/why-do-so-many-murders-go-unsolved-2015-3


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The search warrant executed on March 17 resulted in items being seized. LE indicated it would take 4-6 weeks to get results.

ISTR that you're statistically more likely to be murdered by someone you know than a stranger. I'm going to be very surprised if SA was an element here but I've been wrong before.