IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #55

[bluesneakers]

How do we know that for sure? I know that the date on the obituary is not necessarily the date each of the girls died but I haven't seen anything to indicate for sure that they both died on the 13th. I think they probably both did but there is a possibility it could have been on two separate days. IMO.

We do know for sure.

Bringing this forward:

Just to show a clip of what you were stressing, ExpatCanada


Petition to Seal Autopsy Reports filed

Filed By:
State of Indiana


File Stamp:
03/28/2017

Order Issued

On March 28, 2017, State of Indiana, by Prosecuting Attorney Robert T. Ives, filed a Petition to seal the autopsy reports concerning Abigail Williams and Liberty German. The Court, being duly advised, FINDS as follows: 1) On February 13, 2017 Abigail Williams and Liberty German were killed just outside of Delphi in Carroll County, Indiana. 2) An investigation into these killings is ongoing. 3) No charges have been filed with connection to the killings. 4) The details related to the manner and mechanism of the deaths of Ms. Williams and Ms. German, if they remain confidential, make it easier for investigators to recognize a false confession as it is improbable for an innocent person to accurately describe the details of the deaths without personal knowledge. 5) Investigators are able to maintain a tactical advantage when speaking with a suspect if the manner and mechanism of the deaths of Ms. Williams and Ms. German are not made public. The Court, being duly advised, ORDERS as follows: State of Indiana has demonstrated by a preponderance of the evidence that public access or dissemination of the information contained in Ind. Code 36-2-14-18(a) would create significant risks of harm to the criminal investigation of the deaths of Ms. Williams and Ms. German.

https://public.courts.in.gov/mycase/...1qY3lObU09In19

Link does not bring you directly to this document....so unsure of channels to do that but it is from ExPat's WS thread post (as seen above) by poster named Beer.

 

[Krwiley60]

That's pretty major if that did indeed happen that way.I have often wondered why small towns,mine in particular,feel the need to buy surplus tanks and armored vehicles yet find no use to buy a chopper with FLIR.Even if the search was called off and all the kids were going to have to deal with is "exposure",they're still kids.So I don't believe that everything possible that could have been done in the aid of the search was done.That's one thing that will agitate me even after the murderer(s) is caught.Actually a lot of thing's bother me about this case,such as they guy EW starting to say vic...then caught himself,but just before that said they were even searching trash cans for the girls' phones.The quick arrival of the FBI. DHS being involved.Witnesses not seeing or hearing anything yet supposedly on the trail at the same time.This makes me question the entire time line in general.Was this the work of a serial killer and police knew this from Libby's upload but was taken down and we were given the single photo? Does that mean they were actually doing a search on the 13th for victims as the man in the video started to say? Everything is questionable about this entire thing to me.I'm not a conspiracy theorist but I usually know when I'm being lied to about something.

I've always felt LE was being deceptive.


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[cluciano63]

How do we know that for sure? I know that the date on the obituary is not necessarily the date each of the girls died but I haven't seen anything to indicate for sure that they both died on the 13th. I think they probably both did but there is a possibility it could have been on two separate days. IMO.

I am sure another poster has the link but the portion of the autopsy report that was public (just the title or a line or two) stated that both victims died on 2/13/17.

 

[GangaMa]

"FBI Special Agent Jolen Goeden said that the biggest surprise to her in the case, was how detailed Keyes was. She told reporters, “Keyes was very methodical, very detailed. There was a tremendous amount of planning that went into these crimes.”

According to Keyes, his usual routine would be to fly to some area of the country, rent a vehicle, and then drive thousands of miles to find victims (investigators have proven that Keyes traveled to Canada often, to Mexico in 2007 and 2008, and to Belize in 2005). Keyes said he often found his victims in campgrounds, parks, rural unpopulated areas and even cemeteries. While in the area of the murder, Keyes would turn off his mobile cell phone and paid for all items with cash. His victims were always random, differing in sex, age, and appearance."

It really boggles my mind that someone who is a murderer would go to such lengths to practice that one thing - killing people. I cannot fathom it. It's as if they're not human, but machines.

 

[abstr]

We do know for sure.

Bringing this forward:

Thank you for that. I had missed that. I can't seem to keep up on this and I appreciate those of you that do and help me out when I've missed something.

 

[Krwiley60]

I just want to say this. I think we all know that an Order to Seal is a legal document applied to and filed with the Court.

"On March 28, 2017, State of Indiana, by Prosecuting Attorney Robert T. Ives, filed a Petition to seal the autopsy reports concerning Abigail Williams and Liberty German. The Court, being duly advised, FINDS as follows: 1) On February 13, 2017 Abigail Williams and Liberty German were killed just outside of Delphi in Carroll County, Indiana. "

BBM

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Delphi-13-Feb-2017-47&p=13298390#post13298390

One the the reasons I've noticed mentioned why LE has not received a credible tip that will solve this case is because some people are distrustful of law enforcement and the judicial system in general.

If we here choose to believe the prosecutor who has access to the Autopsy Report is manipulating the English language in order to obscure the Date of Death and "killed" possibly means one if the girls was still alive on Feb 14th - doesn't that concern you as well considering this is intended to be a factual and legal document?

My opinion is that I don't think we are doing this case any justice to Abby and Libby by arguing facts just to suit our opinions.

As for the date of death indicated to be Feb 14th for Abby's memorial, it is common that some families believe their loved one is alive until the moment they find out otherwise. That is their right and I can understand why, in their hearts, she was still alive until the moment the bodies were found.


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I truly wish people would put this to rest. The petition and Order is based on FACT, not speculation.


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[MistyWaters]

.
It took Anne England NINE YEARS to come forward with the tip LE needed in the Browns Chicken Murders in Palatine, IL.

Fear kept her silent for more than 9 years.

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20100302/news/303029915/

Let's hope that's not the case here.

For the life of me, I can't recall how I came across a Wordpress (?) link but it was about a mother and her two daughters who travelled across the US to Florida, in the '70s I think it was. They were murdered and LE eventually connected it to someone with a blue and white boat.

Meanwhile a neighbour to a man who owned a blue and white boat always had a funny feeling about the guy and gave the tip to a police officer. But soon the neighbour moved away. Somehow the tip wasn't investigated and on the story went however for long periods of time the neighbour thought probably her tip wasn't important. It was a very interesting read in terms of how her tip eventually solved that case.

If anyone knows this case or how to find the link, it's a really fascinating read.


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[bluesneakers]

It really boggles my mind that someone who is a murderer would go to such lengths to practice that one thing - killing people. I cannot fathom it. It's as if they're not human, but machines.

I agree it's mind-boggling!

And some of them are super intelligent. Think of all the things they could do instead.

 

[bluesneakers]

For the life of me, I can't recall how I came across a Wordpress (?) link but it was about a mother and her two daughters who travelled across the US to Florida, in the '70s I think it was. They were murdered and LE eventually connected it to someone with a blue and white boat.

Meanwhile a neighbour to a man who owned a blue and white boat always had a funny feeling about the guy and gave the tip to a police officer. Meanwhile the neighbour moved away. Somehow the tip wasn't investigated and on the story went however for long periods of time the neighbour thought probably her tip wasn't important. It was a very interesting read in terms of how her tip eventually solved that case.

If anyone knows this case or how to find the link, it's a really fascinating read.


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Oba Chandler?

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/cruelest-choices-article-1.1821207

That's a link to a news article though, not a blog post.

 

[Burnt Toast]

there are two reasons a person stops cooperating and answering questions to LE. one is that they are guilty and the other is when LE thinks they are guilty but they are not. people who are not guilty and are not under suspicions by LE typically fully cooperate. RL stopped cooperating. My guess is LE laid out their suspicions to both him and his attorney.

 

[Madhom]

Apologies if this has been posed, I missed it if so.It is from WRTV6 a few days ago.

Indiana Computer Crimes Against Children Taskforce assisting in Delphi murders investigation

Start watching the video at the 1:33 mark. This seems to really clear up if there remains any doubt as to whether they have the physical phone.

[video=youtube;wSKDQTfJtks]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSKDQTfJtks[/video]

 

[Falling Down]

Falling Down, you have such a nice post on the previous page and I hope to ask a question about one little part. The part about Israel Keyes using Google to find his victims. I followed his case until the nightmares drove me away. The one thing that was horrific about him was that he killed random people. Like a hunter waiting for a deer to cross his path.

So maybe you can find a link for me where he says he researched his victims? Then I can quit thinking about that part when I'm out hiking. :blushing:

http://q13fox.com/2012/12/04/serial...let-them-victims-come-to-me-in-a-remote-area/

It's on a YouTube video about him, he told the investigators during one of the interrogations he used Google to prey on the victims he stalked after moving to Alaska, and may have used it previously, but he didn't let on about how he went about using the web to carry out his deeds. Sorry I don't have a link handy.

He killed the public park victims we know of while he was still living in the lower 48. After he moved to Alaska, he murdered at least a few of his victims in places other than public parks. Keyes was even more bold than the perp in this case, and the perp in this case had to be bold to carry out such crimes in a matter of minutes. I feel that fact alone has LE spooked.

I'm an avid hiker, too. Granted, I'm probably outside of this perp's victim demographic, and I would definitely fight back, but look at what Keyes did. One thread about him here here on WS creeps me out, it's for folks who think they came across Keyes. One post is from a woman who thinks she and her husband came across the guy in a public park, and she has pictures of what she thinks is him. Downright chilling.

i highly recommend folks carry pepper spray while hiking, and to have a phone they can make an SoS call from, by just the power button or via an app which could be activated without looking at the phone.

“If I was smart, I would do it, I would let them come to me in a remote area,” Keyes said. “I would go to a remote area that’s not anywhere near where you live but that other people go to, as well. You might not get exactly what you’re (looking for in a victim) … there’s not much to choose from, in a matter of speaking, but there’s also no witnesses, really. There’s nobody else around.”

http://altereddimensions.net/2013/serial-killer-israel-keyes-body-count-may-never-be-known

"FBI Special Agent Jolen Goeden said that the biggest surprise to her in the case, was how detailed Keyes was. She told reporters, “Keyes was very methodical, very detailed. There was a tremendous amount of planning that went into these crimes.”

According to Keyes, his usual routine would be to fly to some area of the country, rent a vehicle, and then drive thousands of miles to find victims (investigators have proven that Keyes traveled to Canada often, to Mexico in 2007 and 2008, and to Belize in 2005). Keyes said he often found his victims in campgrounds, parks, rural unpopulated areas and even cemeteries. While in the area of the murder, Keyes would turn off his mobile cell phone and paid for all items with cash. His victims were always random, differing in sex, age, and appearance."

Again, a killer who knew what to do to keep a low profile, once they were close to their killing place/field.

 

[MistyWaters]

Oba Chandler?

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/cruelest-choices-article-1.1821207

That's a link to a news article though, not a blog post.

Yes that's the case! Thank you. Somewhere on the net is a detailed version of the events, fairly lengthy.

 

[bluesneakers]

there are two reasons a person stops cooperating and answering questions to LE. one is that they are guilty and the other is when LE thinks they are guilty but they are not. people who are not guilty and are not under suspicions by LE typically fully cooperate. RL stopped cooperating. My guess is LE laid out their suspicions to both him and his attorney.

There are more than two reasons. It doesn't mean your guilty if you get a lawyer and keep your mouth shut. It means you're smart.

 

[Burnt Toast]

I take the blame for any creek house discussion. I thought RL said either Greek house or creek house. Apparently it was neither and I was mishearing him say "brick" house.

I mean some history that has been brought to light over his long life, some sort of charges of a perverse nature. Doubtful that a person would first be in the spotlight for a crime involving children at the age of 77, with nothing in his legal history to suggest an inclination. Jmo

you must assume a SA was involved?

 

[crhedBngr]

For the life of me, I can't recall how I came across a Wordpress (?) link but it was about a mother and her two daughters who travelled across the US to Florida, in the '70s I think it was. They were murdered and LE eventually connected it to someone with a blue and white boat.

Meanwhile a neighbour to a man who owned a blue and white boat always had a funny feeling about the guy and gave the tip to a police officer. But soon the neighbour moved away. Somehow the tip wasn't investigated and on the story went however for long periods of time the neighbour thought probably her tip wasn't important. It was a very interesting read in terms of how her tip eventually solved that case.

If anyone knows this case or how to find the link, it's a really fascinating read.


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Here's one link for the above: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/1...-two-daughters-in-18-executed-in-florida.html

 

[St. Anthony2017]

It really boggles my mind that someone who is a murderer would go to such lengths to practice that one thing - killing people. I cannot fathom it. It's as if they're not human, but machines.

Defective machines imo.

 

[bluesneakers]

Yes that's the case! Thank you. Somewhere on the net is a detailed version of the events, fairly lengthy.

I'd only read bits and pieces but have been curious. I'm glad you mentioned it and now I have something else to read up on. I'll keep searching.

 

[Burnt Toast]

I take the blame for any creek house discussion. I thought RL said either Greek house or creek house. Apparently it was neither and I was mishearing him say "brick" house.

How do we know that for sure? I know that the date on the obituary is not necessarily the date each of the girls died but I haven't seen anything to indicate for sure that they both died on the 13th. I think they probably both did but there is a possibility it could have been on two separate days. IMO.

the court document requesting that the autopsy be sealed showed the dates of death as the 13th for both girls.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I think if BG had catfished either or both of the girls there would be a record on their phones or computers somewhere. Even if LE couldn't figure out who BG was there would be some evidence of contact.

The images could be shared and viewed on the web or the dark web. I would hate to have the job of searching for them.

By now, (or in progress) LE would have/is analyzing every keystroke from any device these kids used. If there is a trail, it will be revealed. Using anything online is like following the trail of a toddler with muddy feet in a house with white carpeting.