IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #8

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Are there any things that the two areas have in common? Meat-packing plant or other related industry? Trucking company?
 
I don't believe they have. However, in an early MSM article, they claimed they were asking people to donate DNA. To me and others, this implies they have DNA.

Thank you, that's the last I knew for sure.
 
I thought about this too and said something similar in a post earlier:

In regards to the photos/videos found on Libby's phone - I think they had noticed this man following them and she was documenting it to show her family or friends later the creepy guy that had been on their trail, assuming these photos are taken before they realised the true danger they were in. (I think this was beforehand purely because of his posture.. looking down, hands in pockets, all shrugged inwards? Seems like he is trying to play it cool)

I believe the killer had no idea that he had been documented and probably had a set idea of what he was going to do, went in, did that and got out of there. His mind would've been pre-occupied I'd imagine. He probably forgot about social media/camera apps and would've only noticed if they'd tried to call someone or text. The audio is chilling and I've no doubts that there's a lot more of it but even if it is a video it may have been in her pocket - hence the muffled quality of the audio.

I really don't think the murderer found them via social media. Snapchat is a private app - only people you accept can see your shared photos and you choose who to share them with. I'd assume if they had a Facebook or Instagram that they would've had it set to private too. Also, most teens (from my experience anyway of having a lil' sister who is 14) don't tend to share where they're going or what they're doing until they're actually right in the middle of it. It just seems really unlikely and he knew the area too well. It doesn't rule out everything though!

Also in regards to iCloud: iCloud usually needs a wifi connection to work - it isn't always backing everything up constantly because that's just not how the technology works unfortunately. You also cannot just 'access iCloud' because again, not how the tech works. It isn't like dropbox or iPhoto or anything like that. It's a memory system and I think people don't really understand how it works. This also assumes she had an iPhone and that it was set up to sync to iCloud. We don't really know for sure. This leads me to believe that the LE found the phone on the body and were able to find these videos/photos etc after charging them.

I agree - killer seems disorganized. IMO and from what I've read, when killers become disorganized it is either because they are beginners or they have escalated and their thoughts/plans are deteriorating. He grabbed two girls on a bridge in broad daylight on a day when the kids were out of school. Anyone could have come by, seen them, heard them - they didn't, but the potential was there the whole time. He left footprints (per previous info). He didn't get to the girls' phone(s) fast enough to keep himself from being caught on video/audio. There was talk of a backpack somewhere. So I don't know what to think. He was either very lucky or very brazen to take the chances that he did. He underestimated Libby's smarts and I think it would be perfect justice if that's what burns him.
 
I thought the audio was awfully clear for her phone supposedly being in a pocket. I suppose it's been digitally cleaned up.


It's possible she was holding it in her hand, she would've had to press buttons at some point to get the camera rolling - even if she did it discreetly. Could've been sticking out of her jean pocket with the microphone face up. (Assuming she was wearing jeans or some kind of pants with pockets) Even just in her jacket pocket - if the pockets are loose it wouldn't be so hard to hear the audio
 
Yes, but WHY?

I don't understand keeping info under wraps rather than putting out more than enough to identify him NOW. Before he kills again. We know this won't be his only murder if he remains at large. MOO


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The more the public sees and hears of it....the more and more the defense can claim that a jury pool is tainted...and that the defendant, therefore, did not get a fair trial. I'm not a lawyer...but that is what I am thinking. The more evidence that is saved for the trial...the better off the prosecution is.
 
I'm thinking this guy lives with his mom, elderly, possibly disabled, but still capable of doing his laundry and cooking, but he keeps her isolated from news, relatives, etc. His dwelling is probably ramshackled, something that never had upkeep or maintenance, and sadly I now think those white things sticking up from his coat are zip ties.

He needs to be found! Those poor angels. Someone please come forward and ID
 
Just a thought, but I don't know how to lock my phone. I butt dial, purse dial, pocket dial, as well have accidently went live video taping or have taken pictures not knowing.
 
Jmo i don't see the perp as being in the know with technology, their all lots of people that just don't know. I would suspect from the photo of him that he was not aware he was being photographed/video recorded, him head is down, he may not have realized it till after the fact. Jmo

Agreed, except in the one photo it appears to me that the hood has been pulled up. I wonder if he had seen the phone at that point?
 
I can picture a Ken McElroy situation in this case if the guy is local and LE aren't careful with him when he's in custody.
 
Here's the link to the transcript from last night's Primetime Justice. Sgt. Slocum was on the show again via phone.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1702/22/ptab.01.html

I caught this from the transcript...

SLOCUM: Right. You`re exactly right. We`re trying to determine if we have one suspect or multiple suspects. At this time, we`re not linking

that photograph with that voice. So that voice could possibly be of another suspect, and at this time, we`re investigating that. So we are not

quite sure if we have one person and/or multiple people that we are looking for in the murder of Liberty German and Abigail Williams.
 
Here's the link to the transcript from last night's Primetime Justice. Sgt. Slocum was on the show again via phone.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1702/22/ptab.01.html

and this....

SLOCUM: Well, it sounds like he was directing them. But to answer your first question, as far as him knowing the area, we`re not sure, but that

obviously is one possibility in this case that we`re looking at. Again, we spoke last night about how close to the Hoosier heartland our State Road 25

interstate type system that this trail is close to. We`re still expanding our search, and not just to encompass the Carroll County, Delphi area, but

also surrounding areas. So we do not know if he knew the area.
 
I don't feel like it looks like the same one either. The monon high bridge is reportedly 853' long. That doesn't look that long in the photo you referred to.

Knowing the photo definitely occurred prior to the crime and was definitely taken as video by Liberty changes a little from my initial impression. I originally felt like he took them from the bridge or from the North end of it just as they came off of it and lead them upstream on the North side of the creek. My initial reaction was that he likely did this because he had a car at the cemetery and that was his planned escape and prevented him from having to spend any considerable time on the actual trails because the trails raise the potential to encounter witnesses. I also felt he could watch the bridge from that area of woods East of the bridge on the North bank of the creek.

What I struggled with was that I couldn't really figure out why he would go out on the bridge moving in a Southerly direction before or after the crime if they ended up on the North side. The bridge is a risky spot for him because it is so visible and you can't move on it quickly if someone came unexpectedly. I felt that there was no way he'd use the bridge to exit the area afterwards. I also felt that based on where he took them, he'd possibly have to be wet or have mud on him.

I feel like he walked onto the bridge after possibly loitering around the end for a bit oddly that caught the girls' attention? I'm not certain that Liberty isn't pretending to take a selfie in the video and the still is with her cropped out of it. That could be the reason for it being out of focus. A lot of times, phone cameras recognize a face up close and focus to it. It would explain the poor quality of the stills because they may have cropped her out and it could be why she was able to keep it recording without him being alarmed or focused on her phone. I feel like he probably walked just past them as if he was going to pass on by and then turned and produced a weapon walking them back North.

The fact that he chose the area he makes me believe he had at least scoped out the area before. It seemed they walked a decent distance and I'm not sure how he would know they wouldn't end up in someone's backyard or in view from a house. I have also held the theory that he walked them away from the bridge until he got to an area that he felt someone on the bridge couldn't see and would have a harder time hearing. The area he walked them through begins relatively flat with a steep drop to the creek and then the terrain begins to get pretty severe at the first drainage ditch south of the cemetery. How was he able to be confident that a chase wouldn't ensue in those woods which would have been very difficult for 1 guy chasing 2 teenagers. There were several options to get down to the creek and he chose the one that took the longest walk, but ended up being most isolated. Was this just chance?

I also wonder how he was sure he would be able to keep them quiet? Did this not matter to him. It is possible that he had already encountered one witness and that witness spoke of other people she saw, but not the girls. Was he just sure they would comply with commands or did he do something to cover their mouths?

I keep focusing on how well did he know the area and how prepared was he for this when he arrived that day?
There are reasons to believe he knew it quite well and that he came prepared with things to force them to comply as well as restrain them and possibly keep them quiet? We don't know the manner of death, but I've heard no reports of gunshots.

There is a lot about this crime that makes it seem like it would be very daring to initiate and difficult to pull off. It almost requires help. I'm not saying there has to be an additional guy, but I can understand why there could be reluctance to rule out an accomplice.

The thing about releasing the voice and the picture and stating that it might not be the same person, subconsciously, people are listening to the voice and trying to match it to the guy in the picture whether they mean to or not. I figure they must know that it is him and are just being vague about it to not discourage anyone who may think they recognize the guy, but not the voice or vice versa. It seems like a risky play to make, but I get it, especially if they believe he was disguising his identity.
This is an excellent post. These are the questions and issues that present themselves. If the engagement was initiated on the SE end of that bridge as seems to be the case I don't know how this works out without a second person involved. If the girls were not taken back across that bridge and any kind of sexual assault happened I can't see how that didn't happen on the south side of the creek. This means to me that there should have been another crime scene located on that side and really if the girls never left that bridge/park area that is where they should have been found. Why trudge themselves and the girls across the creek? Why march them back across the bridge either? Much less to account for if that isn't necessary making it easier for the perp(s) to make their exit. The main issue with this crime being conducted with the idea of crossing a bridge and then re-crossing it is the sheer amount of time that would take leaving opportunity for some other witness or witnesses to show up on the trail or bridge. The only thing that makes sense to me is either this started on the NW end of the bridge (meaning the interpretation of where BG is in the still shots is wrong) or the girls were removed from the area and dumped where they were found. Are there items that the girls were known to have with them that have not been found?

LE is holding back too many things that are not critical to the investigation that would help to find or identify the murderer(s).
 
I've been following these threads for the past week or so and have only just made an account so I can join in the conversation. (Yay for first post ever!)

Firstly, this is such a tragic incident. It's so saddening but I'm deeply humbled by the response from this community, the LE and the general public. Even the media has played a huge part in getting info out there.

These are some of my thoughts on the case:

I think the unsub is probably someone from the area, not too far out of town. Definitely someone who has a permanent home. I can't imagine a random passerby suddenly deciding to kill some innocent girls on their way through, especially not in the area they were hiking around. I believe he definitely knows his way through the wooded area. I think it was definitely planned in advance - I don't necessarily think he had a specific target though. Perhaps he decided he wanted to kill someone that day and chose the easiest / most vulnerable targets? I don't know. It's interesting to me that the LE believe it wasn't random - but i'm not 100% certain what they mean by this. (ie: I don't know whether they think the planned targets were Libby & Abby before they'd even been dropped off OR if they mean that the killer had planned to strike that day regardless of who it was)

I really don't think the murderer found them via social media though. Snapchat is a private app - only people you accept can see your shared photos and you choose who to share them with. I'd assume if they had a Facebook or Instagram that they would've had it set to private too. Also, most teens (from my experience anyway of having a lil' sister who is 14) don't tend to share where they're going or what they're doing until they're actually right in the middle of it. It just seems unlikely that the killer stumbled across a photo or check-in that afternoon and made his way there. It just seems really unlikely and he knew the area too well. It doesn't rule out everything though. Perhaps he had been stalking these girls or noticed them days prior to the killing. That's a mystery still.

In regards to the photos/videos found on Libby's phone - I know a lot of people are speculating whether they've been cropped but I honestly think she was just filming while holding her phone portrait ways. It's quite a narrow screen and I've definitely filmed on my phone like that before. I think they had noticed this man following them and she was documenting it to show her family or friends later the creepy guy that had been on their trail, assuming these photos are taken before they realised the true danger they were in. (I think this was beforehand purely because of his posture.. looking down, hands in pockets, all shrugged inwards? Seems like he is trying to play it cool) I think the stills may be from a video rather than an image due to the quality - the video quality of a standard smartphone is always a lower definition than photos. Either that or she is using an older model of a phone. It would be interesting to know what brand of phone she had. She was obviously trying to be sneaky due to the varying angles of a very similar image.

The audio is chilling and I've no doubts that there's a lot more of it but even if it is a video it may have been in her pocket - hence the muffled quality of the audio. I doubt there is actual moving footage of the perp during the attack because if he'd noticed that he would've taken the phones with him, right? I mean even if you stomp on a phone, the hard drive, memory and motherboard can easily be salvaged when you put the components in a brand new phone. Things upload to iCloud but you usually have to be connected to wifi and iCloud isn't something that can just be accessed and looked through - the technology doesn't work this way. She may not have had an iPhone either or have iCloud set up. The cops definitely found her phone, which leads me to believe that the phones were found on the bodies and explains why their phones rang for the first few hours and eventually stopped as they would've run out of batteries. I believe the killer had no idea that he had been documented and probably had a set idea of what he was going to do, went in, did that and got out of there. His mind would've been pre-occupied I'd imagine. He probably forgot about social media/camera apps and would've only noticed if they'd tried to call someone or text.

Lastly, I think it's a solo act? There's just something about it that seems like it was one guy. Most killers/pedophiles work alone - they sometimes communicate with others like themselves but apart of the kick is usually carrying out these tasks so it seems strange to me if there were two people working together - just a thought! No idea if it a repeat offender or first timer though. There isn't enough evidence for that yet. (Or there may be and it hasn't been released)


I thiiiiink this is all I've got for now. I've read through so many posts and people have some great insights. If you have anything to add or question feel free to reply!! Keep up the work guys.

PS: Edited for left out things or silly grammatical errors


Welcome to websleuths ambi! Thank you for posting. Great perspective. I think you are pretty spot-on!
 
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