IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #83

[liltexans]

Is it ok to post about Lyric and Lizzie's case in reference? Or is that a no-no?

PS...Does anyone know if the hat of BG is in fact corduroy?

Yes, it's fine to post about Lyric and Lizzie's case in reference. I believe LE in either IN or IA said early on that they didn't believe the 2 cases are connected, but my feeling is that they can't possibly know that for sure since neither case has been solved. We are coming up on 6 years since Lyric and Lizzie were murdered and over a year since Abby and Libby were murdered, so I personally can't rule out a connection.

Also, it's a TOS violation to tell someone how to post or what to post, so please alert if someone does that.

 

[Jax49]

Early article regarding possible connection. I remember when Delphi first happened I kept getting the girls confused with the Iowa cousins.

http://www.wpta21.com/story/34703200/delphi-murders-strangely-similar-to-iowa-double-homicide

 

[kkdj]

Early article regarding possible connection. I remember when Delphi first happened I kept getting the girls confused with the Iowa cousins.

http://www.wpta21.com/story/34703200/delphi-murders-strangely-similar-to-iowa-double-homicide

They all look so similar in appearance. I wonder if BG has a family with girls around these ages at the time, that he isn't allowed to see. Idk, just trying to make a connection even though there might not be one.

 

[Jax49]

The two youngest have very distinct and similar chins, imo. That's one thing I notice every time I look at the pics.

ETA: Is there a connection? We'll have to wait to find out because there is no way to know at this point.

 

[carbuff]

Indeed. Additionally, some other victims could be related to our girls here, moo.

Yeah. I really don't think this was BG's first rodeo.

Here's what I'm going to be researching: possible related cases. I'm looking at a map of the midwest with Delphi on one end and Waterloo Iowa where L&L were, and thinking about the serial killer pattern stuff I've read over the years about patterns and mind maps. The idea is that a killer has a certain comfort zone within which he commits his crimes. I first heard about it with the Grim Sleeper in Los Angeles, whose crimes lined up along I-5 through downtown. Everything was within about a mile on either side.

Another common pattern is a shape like a plus sign, where the killer has a line between home and work site (or another significant location, like a girlfriend's house) and the crimes will be on a line perpendicular to that line. For that pattern, often the hunting site will be at one end and the dump site will be at the other.

And there's the circle, where the crimes are spread out at about equal distance from the killer's home territory. That's very common.

Things like truck driver killers and the killer who has a connection to a relatively distant piece of land (like a grandparents' house or the place they grew up) are harder to pin down.

Distances are usually about half an hour to an hour's drive, though some are longer, especially in bigger states.

Assuming for the moment that the Delphi killer has killed before, and that the Iowa girls are also his victims--I'm not sure what I see. (Not enough data.) There are several fairly direct routes, the most direct being via I-74 and I-80 to I-380; it's somewhat longer than the usual pattern but it's a somewhat sparsely populated area so might require being spread out more.

That gives a midpoint somewhere in the Peoria-Bloomington area. Bloomington is right at the intersection of several major interstate highways. If you look north and south about the same distance, which could fit either a plus-sign or a circular pattern, there would be potential crime areas (probably dump sites) in southern Wisconsin and the St. Louis area to the south (though I'm thinking more likely the farm country between St. Louis and Louisville).

I can already think of one possibility: the girl known as Fond du Lac Jane Doe was found in a stream in a rural area in 2008.

 

[coffeeandacig]

Yes, it's fine to post about Lyric and Lizzie's case in reference. I believe LE in either IN or IA said early on that they didn't believe the 2 cases are connected, but my feeling is that they can't possibly know that for sure since neither case has been solved. We are coming up on 6 years since Lyric and Lizzie were murdered and over a year since Abby and Libby were murdered, so I personally can't rule out a connection.

Also, it's a TOS violation to tell someone how to post or what to post, so please alert if someone does that.

Thanks ...Just wanted to make sure I wasn't stepping on any toes, since most of the people who on this thread are far more familiar with this case than I am. No one has been anything but kind.

 

[cluciano63]

I feel like we would have heard of lots of contact between Iowa and Indiana, if the cases seemed linked. As far as I know, there has been very little talk of linking them. Perhaps they have evidence from both crime scenes, with nothing matching up.

 

[coffeeandacig]

I agree with you carbuff. This is not BG's first rodeo, IMHO.

First, the manner in which BG approached Abby and Libby. BG had his eyes down, hands in pockets, and hunched over to give a less menacing appearance. The simple "I mean you no harm" body language that is practiced by killers in order for victims to drop their defenses.

Second, it is no coincidence that Wiechman Pig Company being in close proximity to both Delphi and Evansdale. BG could have spent many days in the cab of his father's truck hauling pigs to slaughter. And if wait times for off loading were long enough he could have spent time along the tracks and river while dad waited at the pig station.

Third, the dates of A&L and L&L's are so similar in an eerie sense. Inthenumbers posted deciphering the dates to 2032, which I thought maybe having been reference to a biblical quote. But it could just be (2+0) and (3+2) equaling 2 every 5 years. More ritualistic like an offering rather than random dates.

My idea is that this guy is mid 30's with more reddish hair and a short beard. Normally wears glasses. Wears the cap all the time. Hates his father, close to his mom. Parents divorced. Began pre - teenage years in trouble with the law. Turned it all around after "finding God". Lives in the Macomb/Beardstown/Monmouth IL area (SK geographical triangle). Moved between IL and IA frequently. Overly religious...Maybe a pastor working with children and plays video games where he has met potential victims. Newly married, less than a year and maybe with a new kid. All looks happy and bright on the outside. Cold and dark on the inside.

JTOL...​

 

[gregjrichards]

I feel like we would have heard of lots of contact between Iowa and Indiana, if the cases seemed linked. As far as I know, there has been very little talk of linking them. Perhaps they have evidence from both crime scenes, with nothing matching up.

Because of the amount of time that passed before Elizabeth and Lyric’s remains were found I’m doubtful there is any dna or even cause of death to compare to Abigail and Liberty’s case. I hope we get an answer to this one day. It is heartbreaking there is no arrest in Elizabeth and Lyric’s case years later and I hope and pray it isn’t the same for Abigail and Liberty’s too.

 

[carbuff]

I agree with you carbuff. This is not BG's first rodeo, IMHO.

First, the manner in which BG approached Abby and Libby. BG had his eyes down, hands in pockets, and hunched over to give a less menacing appearance. The simple "I mean you no harm" body language that is practiced by killers in order for victims to drop their defenses.

Second, it is no coincidence that Wiechman Pig Company being in close proximity to both Delphi and Evansdale. BG could have spent many days in the cab of his father's truck hauling pigs to slaughter. And if wait times for off loading were long enough he could have spent time along the tracks and river while dad waited at the pig station.

Third, the dates of A&L and L&L's are so similar in an eerie sense. Inthenumbers posted deciphering the dates to 2032, which I thought maybe having been reference to a biblical quote. But it could just be (2+0) and (3+2) equaling 2 every 5 years. More ritualistic like an offering rather than random dates.

My idea is that this guy is mid 30's with more reddish hair and a short beard. Normally wears glasses. Wears the cap all the time. Hates his father, close to his mom. Parents divorced. Began pre - teenage years in trouble with the law. Turned it all around after "finding God". Lives in the Macomb/Beardstown/Monmouth IL area (SK geographical triangle). Moved between IL and IA frequently. Overly religious...Maybe a pastor working with children and plays video games where he has met potential victims. Newly married, less than a year and maybe with a new kid. All looks happy and bright on the outside. Cold and dark on the inside.

JTOL...​

Oh, I had forgotten about the triangle. Thank you!

Sadly I don't think we'll ever know for sure about L&L because so little evidence could be found.

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk

 

[kat913]

Yeah. I really don't think this was BG's first rodeo.

Here's what I'm going to be researching: possible related cases. I'm looking at a map of the midwest with Delphi on one end and Waterloo Iowa where L&L were, and thinking about the serial killer pattern stuff I've read over the years about patterns and mind maps. The idea is that a killer has a certain comfort zone within which he commits his crimes. I first heard about it with the Grim Sleeper in Los Angeles, whose crimes lined up along I-5 through downtown. Everything was within about a mile on either side.

Another common pattern is a shape like a plus sign, where the killer has a line between home and work site (or another significant location, like a girlfriend's house) and the crimes will be on a line perpendicular to that line. For that pattern, often the hunting site will be at one end and the dump site will be at the other.

And there's the circle, where the crimes are spread out at about equal distance from the killer's home territory. That's very common.

Things like truck driver killers and the killer who has a connection to a relatively distant piece of land (like a grandparents' house or the place they grew up) are harder to pin down.

Distances are usually about half an hour to an hour's drive, though some are longer, especially in bigger states.

Assuming for the moment that the Delphi killer has killed before, and that the Iowa girls are also his victims--I'm not sure what I see. (Not enough data.) There are several fairly direct routes, the most direct being via I-74 and I-80 to I-380; it's somewhat longer than the usual pattern but it's a somewhat sparsely populated area so might require being spread out more.

That gives a midpoint somewhere in the Peoria-Bloomington area. Bloomington is right at the intersection of several major interstate highways. If you look north and south about the same distance, which could fit either a plus-sign or a circular pattern, there would be potential crime areas (probably dump sites) in southern Wisconsin and the St. Louis area to the south (though I'm thinking more likely the farm country between St. Louis and Louisville).

I can already think of one possibility: the girl known as Fond du Lac Jane Doe was found in a stream in a rural area in 2008.

Thanks Carbuff...excellent info...

 

[kidetect22]

Oh, I had forgotten about the triangle. Thank you!

Sadly I don't think we'll ever know for sure about L&L because so little evidence could be found.

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk

Triangle ??! I’m from Illinois and never heard of this SK triangle. I feel like I’ve failed in life right now. Ha

 

[No it's not]

Regarding the similarities in the IA/IN cases, the proximity of the river/creek is of course one of them and I have been thinking about it. Serial killers (not all of them) have the tendency to return to the crime scenes or to the burial sites for various reasons.

I am wondering, if some of them force their victims to a certain location (close by a river turn/a large tree/building/landmark/ intersection etc.) or move/ bury their bodies, so they can revisit those locations online via Google earth for example..?

In the IA/ IN cases, the river/creek could have served other reasons of course (cleanup/DNA removal etc..) or none at all.

ALL IMO

-Nin

 

[GMF3]

Having finally moved away from our previous POI, I'm trying to be open minded. Because really, there isn't much else left.

A couple of things I wanted to think out loud about...

1. The original billboards would have you believe they thought this person is/was mobile. The fact that there are reports (on here anyways) of some of them still being "up" leads me to believe the truck driver theory is likely still on the table.

2. His clothing. We know, based on reports, that there can be multiple hour waits to get a load at the Packers. Is it possible that he took a nap, woke up and changed into new clothes all while sitting there waiting to pickup? Wait if he's the second person of a driving team? Allowing him to completely leave the truck without having to worry about it? I'm trying to account for his jeans not appearing as though someone has been driving for multiple hours.

3. Also as if relates to his clothing. That type of jacket would be one that you may have around for short stints in the rain etc. It would be good for just a few minutes of hooking up your load etc. His jacket could very well point to being a truck driver as well. A really cheap, useless jacket that you don't really care about that you keep in the truck.

4. I've always been one to think there's a handgun in his jacket. I believe it to be outlined in the picture. While this likely isn't out of the ordinary for people on farms etc. It also wouldn't surprise me if a truck driver kept a weapon for security at overnight rest stops etc. I don't think it would be the norm as I don't think you can travel state to state with a handgun but, if it's kept in the "sleeper" maybe you feel ok about doing it.

5. One last piece that adds to a truck driver. They're likely bored out of their mind sitting there for multiple hours on end. He could have been monitoring social media and saw a public post somewhere about the girls going to the bridge. So, while he didn't stalk them or catfish them per se, that could be an online connection to consider. Which would be awful as there would literally no way to connect them together.

Lastly... I was watching a movie earlier. And you can guess the movie based on the pic. I only watched for about two minutes as I'm not into these types of movies. I hesitated to post this as I wasn't trying to be inappropriate. But, take a look at what he's wearing on his waist? I found various reinventions of it when I googled the movie name and hit images. But, it is definitely something. I didn't watch the movie long enough to determine what it is. A knife sheath of sorts or??? I the colored items almost like fishing lures? I'm not sure... I've seen so much h speculation and pictures on what people think this is but, I don't remember anything like this pictured.

Anyways... Cheers.

 

[coffeeandacig]

Triangle ??! I’m from Illinois and never heard of this SK triangle. I feel like I’ve failed in life right now. Ha

Dotr posted this in another thread. It's very simple to understand. Hope it helps.

 

[Satchie]

Regarding the similarities in the IA/IN cases, the proximity of the river/creek is of course one of them and I have been thinking about it. Serial killers (not all of them) have the tendency to return to the crime scenes or to the burial sites for various reasons.

I am wondering, if some of them force their victims to a certain location (close by a river turn/a large tree/building/landmark/ intersection etc.) or move/ bury their bodies, so they can revisit those locations online via Google earth for example..?

In the IA/ IN cases, the river/creek could have served other reasons of course (cleanup/DNA removal etc..) or none at all.

ALL IMO

-Nin

Another similarity is, the perp(s) found the victims by going to a trail in a recreational area in the middle of the day.

That is, didn't go near a school, or a shopping mall, or a rec centre, all somewhat more obvious choices.

The Iowa perp, it seems to me, also approached his victims on foot. A vehicle couldn't get close to where their bikes and the purse were found.

Another similarity is choosing to abduct girls from a very small town, less than 5k population. Did the perp(s) count on girls and their parents feeling safer in a small town?

One difference is that L & L were definitely taken away to another location and kept for an unknown time. The Seven Bridges area in Iowa is so remote, a perp would never find girls there, and went somewhere else to abduct them. (But Evansville is not the closest small town)

It's been suggested that A & L could have been taken away, and then returned in the night, but I don't know how much to credit that.

Another similarity, considering the unusual MO above, is no rumours of failed attempts to abduct girls in the area, prior to these crimes. So the perp(s) were...what's the word...not bumblers.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Dotr posted this in another thread. It's very simple to understand. Hope it helps.

Problem is if the perp has no job or works and lives in the same town then I guess it could be a circle. Also, other situations where this may not apply is an itinerant or homeless perp who moves around or a trucker as we have discussed.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Thanks Carbuff...excellent info...

Agree Kat. Carbuff's post is thought provoking. Bloomington is especially interesting as I have seen this come up in stuff I have been looking at.
@Carbuff, I didn't want to repost your long post but TY.

 

[Satchie]

Mainstream media has to name someone as a POI before the person can be mentioned here. It makes sense to me, we're total amateurs hiding behind anonymous handles. Anyone with a grudge/half baked theory could wreck someone's life. Journalists and news outlets are accountable for what they publish and will only name someone if LE are serious.

 

[Confusion]

For lack of any more likely ideas (and not a lot of less likely ideas), I've decided for now that my thought on how he got away is fairly simple. He could have parked at the Baptist church on W200N. He could have taken what looks to be a trail from about 1500 ft. east of there to the south end of the bridge to get there, and then taken it back again when he was done. It doesn't appear to be well traveled since the official trail ends at the north end of the bridge, and it would probably have taken a while for anyone to check that area. I'm really lousy when it comes to anything connected to geography, but it looks to me like it would only be about a mile walk. He could have even dropped of a bag of clothes (at least a different jacket and hat) along the way in case someone did see him. Since the church isn't open on Mondays, there wouldn't be a lot of people t notice his vehicle there; if he was driving something that looked like a service truck, it probably wouldn't attract a lot of attention from passing cars either. MOO