IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #2

[BetteDavisEyes]

Toddlers are notoriously top heavy (and wriggly) Imo he leaned forward with her in front of him and He didn’t have / lost his grip
Does anyone know offhand the actual height of the railing ? Please don’t say chest high lol

I suggested earlier that Chloe's head and upper body were likely leaning forward with SA. Chloe's head seemed large for her tiny body. I don't know if this indicated a health issue, but her head looks big in photos.

 

[MsBetsy]

Some children ask to be picked up constantly to be at your height level.

People hold children that age on their hips all the time, I agree completely ridiculous to hold her by the window but this is a case of him not holding her tight enough.

I don't think the picking her up to see is that crazy it's not holding her correctly that's the issue. But i think the whole thing is accidental.

IMO

Yes, I don't think there is any doubt that this was a tragic accident which resulted from the grandfather's carelessness.
LE must have all the evidence by now and if there was any evidence of intent he would be charged with felony murder.
I think the public is critical of the family mainly because they are considering filing the lawsuit.
If they had not immediately done that I think people would have been more sympathetic instead of critical towards them.

Imo

 

[LietKynes]

Let’s think about a model.
The railing is a foot out from the window. What part of the window? Interior or exterior? There’s about what, 4 inch window sill/ ledge.
Railing is about chest high, shoulder high for SA. How can he lean over her? How can he lean over period, to get a view and be outside of the window frame to get a better look.
Chloe would be bent over in half? if SA behind her to hold her.
The best way would be to reconstruct the scene. Build a duplicate scene. Set up the railing. Put in windows. Same kind. Use a doll the height and weight of Chloe. Same with SA. And then put the dolls/figures into various positions. On the railing. On the edge of the window frame. Then lean over. Lean back.

Yes. A mock up would demonstrate the story up close and personal for the jury.
Rarely, but at times the court will allow the jury to go to the scene. Bc looking down at the port would freeze almost anyone from even thinking to put a baby out that far on a railing and/or window frame. At least take a video from the height looking down.
IMHO that reconstruction would seal his fate.

bolding mine

First bolded : You are correct. In one of the first threads that were expunged; a passenger said she was about 5' 5" and the railing was at or above chest height for her; so for a taller person the railing would be at waist height.

Second bolded : Agreed, it certainly would seal his fate and prove that this was not RCCL's fault.
Pretty sure either the parents or SA's lawyer will fight a reenactment, citing that it's "too traumatic" for SA to go through.
Ignoring the fact that this may have not been accidental.
We don't know for sure, and neither does the lawyer. SA seems to be very cocky and there may be other reasons he feels he's above the law, alluding to his traffic records.

What if she "wanted" to pet the lion at the zoo? What if she "wanted" to play in traffic? Apparently she "wanted" to bang on glass and was allowed to. I have never heard such bool sheet. Never. And I have heard plenty. That is a totally new kiddie pastime. *epic eyeroll* IMHOO there was NO earthly reason to place that child in danger but to tempt fate.
If he had dropped her, like he says, how could she have gone out the window if she wasn't already OUT THE WINDOW?!

bolding mine

Ita.
In order for her to be dropped, she had to be further out that window, and not just on the railing.

Pretty sure MW knows this. He might be deceptive-- but he's not stupid.

And I like how you put that BS.

to help visualize this reconstruction - she's either sitting on the railing (where are her feet) or standing on the railing - and they both lean forward.
snipped
The video, which has not been released publicly, will be a key piece of evidence in the criminal trial, CBS News correspondent David Begnaud reports. The video shows what appears to be 18-month-old Chloe cross over to the side of the ship and stand in front of a bank of windows. A man attorneys said is Anello is seen following her.

There was a railing about a foot from the windows, Michael Winkleman, the Wiegand family's attorney said. The surveillance video appears to show Anello look over the railing for one second.

He then reaches down, picks Chloe up and appears to hold her over the railing. Winkleman said Anello didn't realize there was no glass directly in front of him. Within five seconds Chloe falls more than 100 feet below.

"She's sitting on the wooden banister, why did he then lean forward with her?" Begnaud asked Winkleman.

"I think it's pretty obvious why they leaned forward, and that would be so that you could get a better view," Winkleman said.

"What do you say to the fact that he raised her and put her on this banister which the cruise line might argue was not meant for young children to be sitting on?" Begnaud asked.

Video shows girl's final moments with grandfather before cruise ship death

bolding mine

That ^^^
He LOOKED over that railing, and in order for him to do that his head would've been close to -- if not OUTSIDE OF -- that window.
He knew that window was open !!

SA's lawyer can say whatever, but anyone who is following this case will know that "SA didn't know the window was open." is an outright lie.

So the question now is -- why ?
And who made that up ?
The lawyer ? The family ? Or both ?

 

[LietKynes]

Here's just a thought... if the incident was accidental; and the parents win their lawsuit and take home a large payday ---will they in turn use that $$ for improved safety of the RCCL ?

As in, windows that cannot be opened and personal cabins with outside decks fully enclosed with metal screens welded shut-- so that no one can ever fall over again ?
If this is about an accident happening -- I'd expect that the parents would use the money for good and not selfish spending.

Someone pointed out in the first thread that the parents do not need the money as their jobs are sufficient for them to live comfortably.
Why not use any settlement towards the ship's safety and put all of the $$ into a more secure cruise where no one can fall out; either accidentally or planned ?

If that sounds ludicrous, than so does the lawsuit.
Imo.

 

[MsMarple]

Civil Case & Criminal Case. Timing, Which First?

@MsMarple bbm sbm
Re paragraph 1: The civil case (IDK whether Maritime Law or PR law), and the criminal case (PR crim law) filings & procedures are independent of one another. Civil suit can be filed irrespective of whether crim proceeding has concluded.<---That is legally speaking; atty tactics may dictate diff answer.

Quoting your post: "if SA is found not guilty it certainly would bolster their case."
Possibly or likely but not necessarily.
PR prosecutor in crim case has to meet a higher burden of proof - beyond a reasonable doubt - to convict G'father SA o Neg Hom crim charge than
Winkleman will have to meet in (potential) civil suit - 'by a preponderance of the evidence - for wrongful death to show cruiseline's negligence caused Chloe's death.
Just because G'father was not criminally negligent does not mean cruiseline was civilly negligent.
But agreeing w you that a 'not guilty' vedict in crim case is better for parents' wrongful death action against cruiseline, than a guilty verdict.

And there is the possibility of joint and several liability among tortfeasors* in civil suit, i.e., meaning that court could hold that both cruiseline and G'father SA both contributed to her death, so are liable. Doubtful that's an outcome parents would want. Of course, cruieline, not G'father, has the deep pockets to pay award.
jmo, could be wrong. Big complicated mess.<--- that's my opn too

--------------------------------------------------------------------
* ".... U.S. maritime law recognizes the concept of joint and several liability among tortfeasors ... Under joint and several liability, where two or more people create a single injury or loss, all are equally liable, even if they contributed only a small amount. A state court hearing an admiralty case would be required to apply the doctrine of joint and several liability even if state law does not contemplate the concept."**
** United States admiralty law - Wikipedia

"A state court hearing an admiralty or maritime case is required to apply the admiralty and maritime law, even if it conflicts with the law of the state, under a doctrine known as the "reverse-Erie doctrine."
* Admiralty law - Wikipedia

I know the two cases are independent of each other - one is a criminal case and one is a civil case. I was responding to @sl222 who said "I will be surprised if they don't go ahead with the lawsuit since they seem determined to do that. But I assume there couldn't be a trial or settlement before the conclusion of the criminal proceedings."

 

[they'll get you]

to help visualize this reconstruction - she's either sitting on the railing (where are her feet) or standing on the railing - and they both lean forward.
snipped
The video, which has not been released publicly, will be a key piece of evidence in the criminal trial, CBS News correspondent David Begnaud reports. The video shows what appears to be 18-month-old Chloe cross over to the side of the ship and stand in front of a bank of windows. A man attorneys said is Anello is seen following her.

There was a railing about a foot from the windows, Michael Winkleman, the Wiegand family's attorney said. The surveillance video appears to show Anello look over the railing for one second.

He then reaches down, picks Chloe up and appears to hold her over the railing. Winkleman said Anello didn't realize there was no glass directly in front of him. Within five seconds Chloe falls more than 100 feet below.

"She's sitting on the wooden banister, why did he then lean forward with her?" Begnaud asked Winkleman.

"I think it's pretty obvious why they leaned forward, and that would be so that you could get a better view," Winkleman said.

"What do you say to the fact that he raised her and put her on this banister which the cruise line might argue was not meant for young children to be sitting on?" Begnaud asked.

Video shows girl's final moments with grandfather before cruise ship death

The exterior cameras will show the way Chloe fell. Feet or head first.

 

[they'll get you]

I thought the windows looked obviously open/closed in any of the daytime pics I’ve seen. The night ones nope.
But it was daytime. Was he wearing sunglasses (instead of regular glasses)

Good thought about the sunglasses as he walked from the bright pool area and under cover toward the windows his transition lenses had to adjust.

Are we giving Winkleman ideas here?

 

[Barnabas]

Even with my sunglasses and transition lenses on I can tell the difference between tinted glass and clear glass or an open window.

 

[al66pine]

When Must Wrongful Death Lawsuit Be Filed?
@BetteDavisEyes And Other Cruisers
I wonder about cruise tickets terms & limitations, and when parents would have to file lawsuit.

Generalizations from wiki*, w my bbm: Cruise terms incorporated into the ticket ---
1) lawsuits against cruiseline may need to be brought within one year.
2) formal notice (of intent to file) may need to be given to cruiseline w'in six months of injury.

If ^ is accurate for RCCL's ticket terms, and if these procedural terms are enforceable, then the six month 'notice clock' is running July 7, 2019 to Jan. 2020, w only ~ 6 weeks to run.

I skimmed RCCL website (Royal Caribbean Cruises: Vacations and Cruise Deals) but didn't run across these 1) and 2) ^ ticket terms.
Can any cruisers or anyone help out w link?

-------------------------------------------------------
* "Personal injuries to passengers
Main article: Negligence
Shipowners owe a duty of reasonable care to passengers. Consequently, passengers who are injured aboard ships may bring suit as if they had been injured ashore through the negligence of a third party. The passenger bears the burden of proving that the shipowner was negligent. While personal injury cases must generally be pursued within three years, suits against cruise lines may need to be brought within one year because of limitations contained in the passenger ticket. Notice requirements in the ticket may require a formal notice to be brought within six months of the injury. Most U.S. cruise line passenger tickets also have provisions requiring that suit to be brought in either Miami or Seattle."
Admiralty law - Wikipedia. bbm

 

[oviedo]

I suggested earlier that Chloe's head and upper body were likely leaning forward with SA. Chloe's head seemed large for her tiny body. I don't know if this indicated a health issue, but her head looks big in photos.

This is interesting - I ran across this in the media thread - Missing piece in toddler’s tragic fall

"Tragically, the window behind the toddler — a “hidden hole” surrounded by closed glass — had been opened. And in a moment of horror, Chloe went through the window and plunged 11 storeys to her death."
-----------
-- If the "window" was behind her - and he sat her on the ledge she was facing him right? There really isn't another way to say window behind her - although this could be the lawyer talking since it was an earlier article and he was saying they had no access to the CCTV.

so far, I have read she was standing on the handrail, she was sitting on the ledge looking out, the window was behind her, she was held outside of the window..... I suppose we have to go to the latest MSM where they actually viewed the video - and that was just CBS right? everyone else is quoting them??

 

[IceIce9]

He looked out the window first. He would have smacked his head if there was glass.

I think he purposely chose the only open window so he and Chloe would have a better view than looking through a closed, tinted window. MOO

 

[Midwestmom2019]

This is interesting - I ran across this in the media thread - Missing piece in toddler’s tragic fall

"Tragically, the window behind the toddler — a “hidden hole” surrounded by closed glass — had been opened. And in a moment of horror, Chloe went through the window and plunged 11 storeys to her death."
-----------
-- If the "window" was behind her - and he sat her on the ledge she was facing him right? There really isn't another way to say window behind her - although this could be the lawyer talking since it was an earlier article and he was saying they had no access to the CCTV.

so far, I have read she was standing on the handrail, she was sitting on the ledge looking out, the window was behind her, she was held outside of the window..... I suppose we have to go to the latest MSM where they actually viewed the video - and that was just CBS right? everyone else is quoting them??

The blue bird that sings like a canary. Social media had piles of t w ee ts. Many, many photos. Passenger on same cruise.
ABC and DM had some thoughts as well.

 

[oviedo]

New details emerge in Baby Chloe’s cruise ship death
July 10, 2019
The grandfather of 18-month old Chloe Wiegand didn’t dangle and drop her — she fell because an open glass pane should have been closed securely, said attorney Michael Winkleman at a news conference on Tuesday.

Chloe fell to her death from deck 11 of a Royal Caribbean cruise ship, Freedom of the Seas, while it was docked in San Juan, Puerto Rico, on Sunday, according to José Carmona, a spokesman for the local Port Authority.
...
Winkleman said he was retained by the family on Monday to “set the record straight.” As he describes it, the toddler’s tragic death is unlike many of the original reports circling the internet.

----
just going back to the beginning.. I hope the prosecution is making notes of all these "versions" by the attorney representing the family regarding exactly what happened. I am thinking those early reports of what happened have some truth to them IMO

 

[LietKynes]

Good thought about the sunglasses as he walked from the bright pool area and under cover toward the windows his transition lenses had to adjust.

Are we giving Winkleman ideas here?

Heheheheheh...... I like how you think.

Yeah, I don't think he needs our help.
Am fairly certain he has a plethora of ideas he hasn't trotted out... yet.

And nearly all of the msm seems to be quoting whatever Winkleman says.

Can't they do their own independent fact-finding investigation ?
Just saying.

 

[MsFacetious]

This perp is the grandfather and I don't think it was malicious, absolutely completely stupid of him but not intentional.

If my mother or father dropped my child , I'd god knows be angry but couldn't conceive hurting my parent over it.

I could certainly conceive hurting my STEP parent though. My dads girlfriend? She’d likely follow my kid through that window. Not that I’d EVER trust the woman with my baby to begin with.

Even with my sunglasses and transition lenses on I can tell the difference between tinted glass and clear glass or an open window.

Okay what about POLARIZED lenses?
I don’t wear them because I despise the way they change the colors of things.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

...Winkleman said he was retained by the family on Monday to “set the record straight.” As he describes it, the toddler’s tragic death is unlike many of the original reports circling the internet...

How does "the family" know exactly what happened? Grandpa was alone with Chloe while the rest of the family group was elsewhere. No way would I take Grandpa's word for what happened to Chloe.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

I tried bring up the first thread. Was everything deleted?

Check W a y b ac k.
Can go back in time to see various versions of websites using their info. The threads should be on there.

 

[Montrealaise]

bolding mine

Ita.
She "asked" to be picked up and placed in front of that open window; ergo -- it was her fault.
And his statement, "What more can they do to ME that hasn't already happened..." (paraphrased)
Yes, well. It didn't "happen".
Accidents happen. Cars slide off icy roads and crash into a fence.
That happens.
Not this.
Chloe's death was the result of a deliberate act.
An 'act of games'. Or whatever SA was doing.

SA speaks as if the ship had windows open at toddler height and higher, and anyone could've fallen to their death.

That quote from him reminds me of a case in Toronto years ago, when a baby starved to death because his young, homeless mother didn't feed him properly. During the subsequent inquiry into his death and ways to prevent similar deaths in the future, she said "I don't want what happened to me to happen to any other mother" and I was revolted by her statement. First, it didn't "happen" - the baby died because she neglected him! And it didn't happen to HER - her baby suffered a prolonged, agonizing death. I see this same self-centredness and refusal to take responsibility in SA's statement.

 

[al66pine]

New details emerge in Baby Chloe’s cruise ship death July 10, 2019
"...Winkleman said he was retained by the family on Monday to “set the record straight.” As he describes it, the toddler’s tragic death is unlike many of the original reports circling the internet...."

@oviedo sbm Thx for link to article quoting Winkleman.

"Retained to set the record straight."

Oh . Really? Puleeezzze . Give me a break . jmo.

 

[LietKynes]

I suggested earlier that Chloe's head and upper body were likely leaning forward with SA. Chloe's head seemed large for her tiny body. I don't know if this indicated a health issue, but her head looks big in photos.

Hmmm.
Maybe ongoing medical issues that were costly ?
And sometimes health problems do not get less but even more of a financial matter as the child ages.
Might be nothing to it; but still worth considering.
There are reasons.

Curious if Chloe's parents will go with G-pa to PR when he faces trial ?
I assume they're still 'in his corner' ?
They'd have to be ... or risk facing a judge who could throw out their lawsuit.