IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #34

[imkeylime]

There are so many different stories that allegedly came from MB. What if none of them are true?

The following paragraph from "Indiana Monthly" has always interested me. The first half of the paragraph is MB's attorney putting the best spin on MB's participation in the night. But the end of the paragraph is attributed to VS, MB and CR's neighbor. Why would she have said this (that MB said LS was gone after he helped CR to bed) if MB hadn't said it? Why involve herself in a potential murder investigation? And if MB did say it, was it truth or was he trying to create a cover-up story that then changed because someone saw him bring LS to JR's, etc.,?

"Beth’s attorney, Ron Chapman (who also represents Rohn), tells IM that Beth, an IU student, stayed in all night to work on papers due that day. Chapman also confirms that Rossman was with Spierer when she came to the apartment, and that Beth helped Rossman into bed. Valerie Sokolova, a neighbor, tells IM that Beth has said he went upstairs and, when he returned, Spierer was gone. 'That was the last time Mike and Corey saw her,' says Sokolova."

IMO, MB said this to VS and then changed his story. It could have been a cover-up that he couldn't continue with for some reason (i.e., other people saw him with LS afterward?). Or maybe LS did leave while MB was helping CR to bed but then returned and MB took her to JR's?

It's also interesting that VS said it's the last time CR saw LS, which I assume is also what MB told her. If so, was MB speaking for CR at that point?

MB ties the two parts of the night together, i.e., LS arriving at 5N and moving elsewhere, wherever elsewhere might be. But quite frankly, IDK if was can believe any of his stories. It does sound like he was lying if he indeed told VS that he didn't see LS after she left his and CR's place.

 

[AbbeyR]

I agree, keylime.

Maybe they were originally going to say Lauren left MB/CR's apt and omit the part about bringing her to JR's (this is also suggested by the account from the friend who ran onto them at CVS, though the story is a little different), but then realized that the 3:30 phone call from MB to JR would raise questions. Or there were other potential witnesses (neighbours or out of town visitors?)

Or, maybe JR, who was in touch with a legal team right away, tried to ensure his name wasn't mentioned at all by MB and CR, though I'm not sure why they would agree.

Whatever the reason, it seems like there was an effort to conceal what happened at JR's, and an effort to disassociate themselves from each other, as if MB, CR and JR really had nothing to do with each other.

This of course makes me question whether they were all together and why they can't seem to tell a coherent story about what should be a very simple timeline of when/ where / with whom Lauren was after returning to 5N.

There was also, iirc, an account from "Ray" that had the guys from 5N in the alley with Lauren.

 

[akh]

The "I thought I heard burglars" was something that appeared in the parents' civil suit allegations. No idea where that came from. The former FBI TV investigator has likely never interviewed (nor likely ever will) any of the 5N PsOI so he's just rehashing the reports that made the early reporting of the case. We don't know what the initial full story told to LE was, or where the parents brought that allegation from. Maybe it is from the initial story told to PI's or LE.

Just like the part about saying JR mentioned something about her being intercepted. Where did that come from? JR almost certainly never told this TV investigator that. Did someone official leak this to him from police reports or the PI's? ...Or was he just mistaken about it in the first place?

It's hard to say the story has changed when nobody is actually sharing what was told to LE or the PI's in its entirety, if at all. It could be the burglar thing was there from the beginning in the official records. Or it could be the PI's pieced some things together to make that allegation from the lawsuit.

 

[AbbeyR]

Yes, according to TonyGatto.com. he first reported it and then LE confirmed it:

http://tonygatto.com/2011/06/22/pol...-discount-mystery-man-in-lauren-spierer-case/

Yes, and then the bar manager was also interviewed by the private investigators, who identify the 'mystery man' as CR and place the encounter at about an hour earlier than TG reported. This corresponds to the statement from LE which suggested they had video evidence of the encounter described just short of an hour earlier.

 

[AbbeyR]

@akh,

I don't have time to check right now, but I believe the lawsuit docs indicated that the information came from statements from MB to the private investigators. I know this was the case about JR/MB making the phone calls, and I believe it was the case about the burglary story too, but I'm not 100% sure.

I don't think the Spierers have ever had access to the statements made to LE. My impression was that one of the goals of the lawsuit was to obtain this information...?

I've always wondered about the burglary story. It seems odd. Maybe MB indicated to someone that something may be wrong and then had to explain that. For example, could they have started to call someone for help, or is there a text to JR indicating an emergency? Something that would account for MB mentioning that he thought he heard burglars, but realized he was mistaken. Otherwise why would it be mentioned at all? If I came home and had a momentary thought of 'hey, what's that noise?' But then saw my roommate, that thought would immediately become irrelevant. On the other hand, if I called a neighbor for help or something, it would become a relevant detail to explain. Who knows! Because the POI have said so little, every detail seems potentially significant.

 

[AbbeyR]

There are so many different stories that allegedly came from MB. What if none of them are true?

My last post today, but just wanted to say (again): If the reports from VS and other stories attributed to MB all happened to be misheard or misreported, he would have had the opportunity to clear things up when he was interviewed by the private investigators. But, after a year of investigating this case, and interviewing witnesses and POI (including MB), the PI's made a public statement to the media that the accounts from the POI contained discrepancies and didn't add up.

This suggests to me that the contradictions we've heard can't easily be dismissed as 'noise'.

 

[akh]

the PI's made a public statement to the media that the accounts from the POI contained discrepancies and didn't add up.

Yes. And they specifically included JW in that as well.

 

[Ibiz]

Funny thing is: the former FBI guy having national media attention would have a lot of tips to dig through, and you would think would have came up with something. But he doesn't seem to be talking ether.

 

[UncleJohn]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I seem to remember an early account suggesting that MB returned to his (and CR's) apartment from Jr's to find the door ajar and/or lights on and suspected burglary. I also remember suggestions that MB made periodic visits to the party at JR's while 'writing his papers'. I don't buy his lawyer's portrayal of diligent and sober studiousness.


Moreover, I still think the boyfriend has not been sufficiently scrutinized. His alibi is pathetically weak and he is statistically the prime suspect. His actions and those of his parents are suspicious to me and suggest an entitled young man with a genetic predisposition to impulsive action. IMHO, there is no way he didn't know she was out with CR - too many people, too many texts. Unless the two of them were completely on the outs (and even if they were - which might explain him stewing about it for a few hours before venturing out), any 'normal' boyfriend would be jealous/angry/concerned that his long-time girlfriend was out and about and getting wasted with another man.

In light of recent reports that JR saw her 'intercepted' at the corner - what would be less notable and more reassuring than to see her meet up with her boyfriend...?

- John

 

[doubtingthomas]

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I seem to remember an early account suggesting that MB returned to his (and CR's) apartment from Jr's to find the door ajar and/or lights on and suspected burglary. I also remember suggestions that MB made periodic visits to the party at JR's while 'writing his papers'. I don't buy his lawyer's portrayal of diligent and sober studiousness.


Moreover, I still think the boyfriend has not been sufficiently scrutinized. His alibi is pathetically weak and he is statistically the prime suspect. His actions and those of his parents are suspicious to me and suggest an entitled young man with a genetic predisposition to impulsive action. IMHO, there is no way he didn't know she was out with CR - too many people, too many texts. Unless the two of them were completely on the outs (and even if they were - which might explain him stewing about it for a few hours before venturing out), any 'normal' boyfriend would be jealous/angry/concerned that his long-time girlfriend was out and about and getting wasted with another man.

In light of recent reports that JR saw her 'intercepted' at the corner - what would be less notable and more reassuring than to see her meet up with her boyfriend...?

- John

I totally agree about JW. If he stayed in all night to watch the game and then went to sleep, why does he need a lawyer. He would have no stake in what happened to LS. If he knew LS was out with other guys the night before, which I'm sure he did, why would he assume she would be awake early in the morning and start texting her.

 

[akh]

I totally agree about JW. If he stayed in all night to watch the game and then went to sleep, why does he need a lawyer. He would have no stake in what happened to LS. If he knew LS was out with other guys the night before, which I'm sure he did, why would he assume she would be awake early in the morning and start texting her.

Because statistically he'd be on LE's radar. It's understandable why he'd want an attorney in a case like this.
But besides that, his actions (such as what you mentioned about assuming she'd be awake early in the morning) are curious indeed.

As is how did he know she was missing so quickly when he saw she wasn't home at the apt as opposed to have been home and left already for the day. Particularly when he figured out she'd left her phone at Kilroy's and now had a reason she wasn't replying to his texts or any calls.

 

[Ixchel13]

Because statistically he'd be on LE's radar. It's understandable why he'd want an attorney in a case like this.
But besides that, his actions (such as what you mentioned about assuming she'd be awake early in the morning) are curious indeed.

As is how did he know she was missing so quickly when he saw she wasn't home at the apt as opposed to have been home and left already for the day. Particularly when he figured out she'd left her phone at Kilroy's and now had a reason she wasn't replying to his texts or any calls.

glad you two brought this up, yeah it looks solid like why would he need a lawyer, but his alibi isn't solid.

He lived in a house full of guys, 3 or 4 others iirc, some of them were there, in increments they got drunk watched the game and supposedly went to sleep. So it's true, they say that he/they went to bed at 2:30. or the last time they saw him it was 2:30, etc

But that's not an alibi.

 

[UncleJohn]

I hate to keep hammering on JW, but his role in this just doesn't pass my smell test.
It's been an awfully long time and I'm working from memory, but here's my take on JW:

1a. Pathetically weak alibi - roommates saw him go to bed at 2:30ish. Was anyone up the rest of the night to verify that he stayed in bed?
1b. Talked/texted with his father about the BB game - reports were that the game referenced was not the same game played that night.
1c. I have to believe that some of his frat bros or other friends texted him that LS was out and about with CR. He likely received several updates to that effect throughout the evening.
2a. Early access to LS's phone. Able to check text traffic?
2b. Early access to LS's apartment - potential evidence tampering?
3. Premature missing person report? How did he know she wasn't sleeping it off somewhere else?
4. Dad catches the first flight out of NY. To comfort/support his son in time of crisis, or to ensure that he doesn't do anything incriminating?
5. JW does not lend support to search, but quickly leaves town. (If the long term love of my life were missing I sure as hell would want to stay and find her, not fly home to mom and dad.)
6. Mom opens up to media with concerns about her son's reputation - rather than expressing sympathy for the Spierer's loss or her son's loss.

Meanwhile, at JR's:
1. JR is working the phone, looking to deal with an incapacitated LS. Wouldn't call #1 be to JW? If he used a 'burner' phone to call JW's 'burner' (from earlier drug transactions) it would be an untraceable pair of anonymous numbers pinging the local towers.
2. IF (This is a big if. If not, the scenario heads off in a completely different direction.) LS really was able to pass JR's 'sobriety test' and insisted on heading out, 'interception' by JW at the corner of 11th and College would be the desired/planned outcome.
3. Frat blood can be thicker than water. I grew up in Bloomington, graduated from IU, and continued for a masters. I was not a frat guy, but I knew a lot of them. Their code of silence with regards to illegal activities is very strong. It would not surprise me that the brothers would cover for their own in this instance.

On the other hand, we have so little hard evidence to work with - any number of fates could have befallen her...

- John

 

[imkeylime]

I hate to keep hammering on JW, but his role in this just doesn't pass my smell test.
It's been an awfully long time and I'm working from memory, but here's my take on JW:

1a. Pathetically weak alibi - roommates saw him go to bed at 2:30ish. Was anyone up the rest of the night to verify that he stayed in bed?
1b. Talked/texted with his father about the BB game - reports were that the game referenced was not the same game played that night.
1c. I have to believe that some of his frat bros or other friends texted him that LS was out and about with CR. He likely received several updates to that effect throughout the evening.
2a. Early access to LS's phone. Able to check text traffic?
2b. Early access to LS's apartment - potential evidence tampering?
3. Premature missing person report? How did he know she wasn't sleeping it off somewhere else?
4. Dad catches the first flight out of NY. To comfort/support his son in time of crisis, or to ensure that he doesn't do anything incriminating?
5. JW does not lend support to search, but quickly leaves town. (If the long term love of my life were missing I sure as hell would want to stay and find her, not fly home to mom and dad.)
6. Mom opens up to media with concerns about her son's reputation - rather than expressing sympathy for the Spierer's loss or her son's loss.

Meanwhile, at JR's:
1. JR is working the phone, looking to deal with an incapacitated LS. Wouldn't call #1 be to JW? If he used a 'burner' phone to call JW's 'burner' (from earlier drug transactions) it would be an untraceable pair of anonymous numbers pinging the local towers.
2. IF (This is a big if. If not, the scenario heads off in a completely different direction.) LS really was able to pass JR's 'sobriety test' and insisted on heading out, 'interception' by JW at the corner of 11th and College would be the desired/planned outcome.
3. Frat blood can be thicker than water. I grew up in Bloomington, graduated from IU, and continued for a masters. I was not a frat guy, but I knew a lot of them. Their code of silence with regards to illegal activities is very strong. It would not surprise me that the brothers would cover for their own in this instance.

On the other hand, we have so little hard evidence to work with - any number of fates could have befallen her...

- John

Good summary of JW's actions … and I think #3 is definitely worth thinking/talking more about. I've wondered if JW knows more about what happened that night than he's shared, though it's possible that he's shared more than we know (sorry for the tongue twister). That said, maybe the other POIs know more about something that happened with JW, and due to their own involvement via drugs/alcohol and that code of silence, aren't sharing. I still wonder if drug activity that night and maybe on campus in general has something to do with this. Say, for example, LS and CR went back to Smallwood to pick up more of something, which ZO and company wouldn't provide due to LS' condition, and then LS and CR tried to pick up the same thing somewhere near College and 10th. This is speculation, but maybe the bar manager comes in via that type of scenario?

Also, I agree that JW very likely knew LS was at Smallwood with CR. Word travels fast.

 

[Ixchel13]

I hate to keep hammering on JW, but his role in this just doesn't pass my smell test.
It's been an awfully long time and I'm working from memory, but here's my take on JW:

1a. Pathetically weak alibi - roommates saw him go to bed at 2:30ish. Was anyone up the rest of the night to verify that he stayed in bed?
1b. Talked/texted with his father about the BB game - reports were that the game referenced was not the same game played that night.
1c. I have to believe that some of his frat bros or other friends texted him that LS was out and about with CR. He likely received several updates to that effect throughout the evening.
2a. Early access to LS's phone. Able to check text traffic?
2b. Early access to LS's apartment - potential evidence tampering?
3. Premature missing person report? How did he know she wasn't sleeping it off somewhere else?
4. Dad catches the first flight out of NY. To comfort/support his son in time of crisis, or to ensure that he doesn't do anything incriminating?
5. JW does not lend support to search, but quickly leaves town. (If the long term love of my life were missing I sure as hell would want to stay and find her, not fly home to mom and dad.)
6. Mom opens up to media with concerns about her son's reputation - rather than expressing sympathy for the Spierer's loss or her son's loss.

Meanwhile, at JR's:
1. JR is working the phone, looking to deal with an incapacitated LS. Wouldn't call #1 be to JW? If he used a 'burner' phone to call JW's 'burner' (from earlier drug transactions) it would be an untraceable pair of anonymous numbers pinging the local towers.
2. IF (This is a big if. If not, the scenario heads off in a completely different direction.) LS really was able to pass JR's 'sobriety test' and insisted on heading out, 'interception' by JW at the corner of 11th and College would be the desired/planned outcome.
3. Frat blood can be thicker than water. I grew up in Bloomington, graduated from IU, and continued for a masters. I was not a frat guy, but I knew a lot of them. Their code of silence with regards to illegal activities is very strong. It would not surprise me that the brothers would cover for their own in this instance.

On the other hand, we have so little hard evidence to work with - any number of fates could have befallen her...

- John

it took 30 posts for me to say what you summed up in one!

Burner phones have been debated, IMO they probably had some around, These guys had it all going on and were/are even involved with the tech ap start up i.e. fantasy football.

 

[Ixchel13]

it took 30 posts for me to say what you summed up in one!

Burner phones have been debated, IMO they probably had some around, These guys had it all going on and were/are even involved with the tech ap start up i.e. fantasy football.

quoting myself, sorry, had to go in the middle of the post yesterday.

Was saying, these guys (JW. JR, DB) are tech savvy, and were partners in a tech start up and were selling it at the time of Lauren's disappearance. Burner phones would be in their
repetoire most likely.

As we have seen from the dummies in the Dr. Sievers case, though, burner phones can be traced back to the users
if used in conjunction with a GPS or something like that, maybe someone can clarify how LE was doing that...TIA.

Although texting on a burner phone like they did is really being a dummy if you're committing a crime.

IMO, LE probably had many texts from all kinds of people involved, or even on the peripheral, in the events of Lauren's last evening.

This is why they don't believe everyone's stories. But, unless they want to charge someone, no one has to talk to LE.

 

[Skigirl]

I hate to keep hammering on JW, but his role in this just doesn't pass my smell test.
It's been an awfully long time and I'm working from memory, but here's my take on JW:

1a. Pathetically weak alibi - roommates saw him go to bed at 2:30ish. Was anyone up the rest of the night to verify that he stayed in bed?
1b. Talked/texted with his father about the BB game - reports were that the game referenced was not the same game played that night.
1c. I have to believe that some of his frat bros or other friends texted him that LS was out and about with CR. He likely received several updates to that effect throughout the evening.
2a. Early access to LS's phone. Able to check text traffic?
2b. Early access to LS's apartment - potential evidence tampering?
3. Premature missing person report? How did he know she wasn't sleeping it off somewhere else?
4. Dad catches the first flight out of NY. To comfort/support his son in time of crisis, or to ensure that he doesn't do anything incriminating?
5. JW does not lend support to search, but quickly leaves town. (If the long term love of my life were missing I sure as hell would want to stay and find her, not fly home to mom and dad.)
6. Mom opens up to media with concerns about her son's reputation - rather than expressing sympathy for the Spierer's loss or her son's loss.

Meanwhile, at JR's:
1. JR is working the phone, looking to deal with an incapacitated LS. Wouldn't call #1 be to JW? If he used a 'burner' phone to call JW's 'burner' (from earlier drug transactions) it would be an untraceable pair of anonymous numbers pinging the local towers.
2. IF (This is a big if. If not, the scenario heads off in a completely different direction.) LS really was able to pass JR's 'sobriety test' and insisted on heading out, 'interception' by JW at the corner of 11th and College would be the desired/planned outcome.
3. Frat blood can be thicker than water. I grew up in Bloomington, graduated from IU, and continued for a masters. I was not a frat guy, but I knew a lot of them. Their code of silence with regards to illegal activities is very strong. It would not surprise me that the brothers would cover for their own in this instance.

On the other hand, we have so little hard evidence to work with - any number of fates could have befallen her...

- John

I agree. I have always thought that it was totally implausible that JW didn't hear that LS was running around in public with another guy that night. And it's not like he was a totally random other guy -- they were in social circles that overlapped. I absolutely cannot believe that she would have been seen by so many people and none of them would have said something to JW unless he was just totally unreachable. I went to a similar big ten, and I far from knew everyone, but when someone in my circle's boy- or girlfriend was out and about with someone else, word got around at lightening speed and this was before everyone had cell phones! And those two were very long-term girlfriend/boyfriend (for college-aged people) so it would have been especially newsworthy.

So, if I assume that JW knew, I HAVE to believe that JW didn't just go to sleep, even if he stayed home. I really can't imagine that. I have trouble even believing that he didn't put on his shoes post-haste and head out to see if he could find her. This would have been big news! Their relationship was potentially over! People don't usually just say to themselves, "oh hmm, I guess I'll talk to her tomorrow" in that sort of situation. They want resolution to know what's going on. Put yourself back to your worst betrayal ever and you can feel your visceral reaction or at least you can remember what it felt like. I know I can still remember even though the incident I'm thinking of happened back in college. Jealousy and the feeling of profound betrayal are awesomely powerful emotions. Add to that how embarrassing it would be to have the whole thing play out in front of so many people and it would be a rich, dark brew of feelings.

If you assume he had heard that she was out with another guy -- even if he heard the next morning when it came to light she was missing -- why would he call his father? Why wouldn't he assume that she was still with the guy someplace?

It's been a long time since I've really sat with the details of the night, so maybe I'm getting some key piece wrong, but his story has never seemed true to me. I don't know if that makes him a murderer, but I don't believe he's been truthful, and why would he lie?

 

[akh]

When did he call his father? And when did his father fly in? I know those things happened but I don't recall (or if it is even a known fact) if they were before sunset of day one, that night, day two, or when exactly

 

[Ixchel13]

Good summary of JW's actions … and I think #3 is definitely worth thinking/talking more about. I've wondered if JW knows more about what happened that night than he's shared, though it's possible that he's shared more than we know (sorry for the tongue twister). That said, maybe the other POIs know more about something that happened with JW, and due to their own involvement via drugs/alcohol and that code of silence, aren't sharing. I still wonder if drug activity that night and maybe on campus in general has something to do with this. Say, for example, LS and CR went back to Smallwood to pick up more of something, which ZO and company wouldn't provide due to LS' condition, and then LS and CR tried to pick up the same thing somewhere near College and 10th. This is speculation, but maybe the bar manager comes in via that type of scenario?

Also, I agree that JW very likely knew LS was at Smallwood with CR. Word travels fast.

BBM about them just stopping by SW after Kilroys closed,
I just don't buy that story line, and I would love to klnow who started that.

It reeks of propaganda in many ways and really sets the tone for more propaganda to unfold:

1. It makes what happened, Lauren going back into the street, more plausible. She went out to her death, so anyone who may have facilitated that might be afraid of prosecution.

2.She was safely home, and IMO was probably being hounded at Kilroys and made a swift exit, forgetting her shoes and phone, and headed for apt as fast as they could.

3.She was on her floor...what was ZO doing on her floor?
People talk about CR being banned from SW, but so was ZO.
He didn't help Lauren, so we have to assume he either entered SW or was already there, and with the expressed intention of attacking CR.

He was trespassing and committed violent assault, on camera. Not audio, so he could lie away about why. But his actions show everything. He lied to keep from being arrested.

IMO, his intentions were to stop CR from entering Lauren's apt.

3.Because JW entered Lauren's apt and room before reporting her missing and then a packet of white powder was found in her room, leaves this open to victim framing. It also conveniently provided a reason for Lauren to be "stopping by" her own apt.

4. Always the question, who else was in on this? HT stepped in so quickly as spokesperson for POIs. This has always made me wonder...was she feeding info to JW that night?

5.Technically, if they chased Lauren around til she finally died or fell and injured herself, they didn't actually commit a murder
but caused it to happen.

If that could be proven in conjunction with providing her with
alcohol, especially when or if they knew the "game" of chasing her around was afoot, then that combination could land a group of, say, 10 people, in trouble then, possibly accidental homicide/manslaughter, that range of charges.

6.They follow someone around, intimidate her, intoxicate her, attack her, capture her (she couldn't defend herself
at JRs and he claims he wouldn't let her go unless she could walk straight), then let her go when they knew another
person who had been following her was nearby to apprehend her.

I think that's enough to want people to spread a rumor that no, Lauren wasn't going home at 2:30 a.m., she was merely stopping by her apt for more drugs and then back out to party.

Not aimed at you, Akh, but I find that theory utterly ludicris.
She was trying to get in her apt and lock her door on these people. Probably not even aware that IMO her roommate
and her new friend ZC were running interference on that.

 

[imkeylime]

it took 30 posts for me to say what you summed up in one!

Burner phones have been debated, IMO they probably had some around, These guys had it all going on and were/are even involved with the tech ap start up i.e. fantasy football.

Also, MB was studying telecommunications, business for telecommunications, and marketing at IU, per an early Heraldtimesonline article. The group was pretty tech-savvy overall, it seems.