IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #35

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akh I see you're here, please give a detailed surmisal of why you think DM is POI or could or should be. TIA,
 
Jacobite said:
I once really loved Bloomington. Had a lot of fun there. I think many of us did not want to beleive that a stalker killer like the creep Hannah Wilson met could possibly be there. But, now we know that one did. Reality sets in and we realize this may indeed be the same fate for Lauren Spierer. A creeper stalker killer. Perhaps Brown County is where she will be found.
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I know exactly how you feel. In the passing of Time, these bucolic college campuses have changed. First, having a campus in your town meant jobs, the students were seen as welcomed clients to make money from by serving.

This morphed slowly into the years; they were still clients to make money from, but now they were also prey to steal from and assault.

I agree with Ros, there were the disappearances and thefts and murders, but not like it is now.

And I would say that about any college campus town. Or, the area around a campus in bigger cities. really not safe to be alone at night, and this many times over if you are intoxicated and
alone.

Bloomington is full of good people.Our bar industry is full of good people, helpful people, honest people. But when they're bad apples, it's rotten to the core. If these students knew just how much these bad apples hate them, they would never go out alone.

I'll admit it, I've seen and heard this first hand from employees I've managed. One of the reasons I would never manage a bar/restaurant place again here are these bad apples. The
jealousy of these bad apples knows no end. The name calling and rudeness was impossible to deal with.

The regular customers of these bad apples tended to be like them. I have witnessed employees egging on customers to harass women. Last year I posted about one incident in particular. Bartender was egging on a group of men circling in on a blacked out woman
whose phone was dead and she was separated from her friends.

When I rescued her and took her back to the kitchen to charge her phone, and left her in good hands until her friends picked her up, as I was leaving she ran over and hugged me and said, "thank you for saving me!"

As I walked out the door, one of the men started cussing at me and telling me to go eff myself, lol but not lol.

Edited to add a point to my ramble. To work in a place that serves alcohol, you must be issued a permit. IMO,in order to get one of these licenses, servers should have to sign an oath to uphold safety of their clients by reporting any harassment of clients immediately to manager.

And make bars responsible for their clients safety. If they find that hard to do, then they either have too many customers, or not enough employees.

If you owned a gym, would you allow customers to follow other customers around or have your employees suggest that they work out until they are ready to pass out, and then have them kicked out into the street without their shoes and phone?
 
Ros said:
Article giving DM as under investigation:
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/lat...ndiana-university-daniel-messel-hannah-wilson
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Not sure how accurate that source and article are. It also says that Rossman and Rosenbaum were ruled out quickly, which we know is not the case.

I thought LE told the Spierers that DM was not involved? They also said they did not consider the crazy informant guy to be credible (Both were quoted in earlier news sources on this forum). Are these recent articles just based on the potential similarities (which obviously make him a compelling POI)? Does LE have evidence to consider DM a POI -- or to rule him out?
 
As we here know, LE is keeping silent about this case. I am trying to remember if the Spierers were told that there was no evidence to link DM to LS's disappearance or if there was evidence against his involvement. We also know that in the absence of accurate info from LE, the media will speculate and get its "facts" wrong.


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@Ros Here's a quote from one of the articles - It says the Spierers' have been told there is no connection to DM - I suppose that could mean either he has been ruled out (easy enough if he was not in Bloomington at the time or had an alibi) -- or that there was no evidence (yet) linking him to the case. Based on the context and tone of the comments, I read it as the former, but as we've seen over and over again, the information from LE is often open to interpretation.

A murder trial looms for Daniel Messel, charged with killing Hannah Wilson, 22, another Indiana University student whose body was found in April 2015 after she was last seen leaving the same bar that Lauren had visited. Despite surface parallels, the Spierers have been told there’s no connection.

But police did confirm that a raid last January on a registered sex offender’s former residence was tied to a tip in the Spierer case, although no more details have been made public.

“We’re really still pretty much in the dark,” says Charlene Spierer.

She is unwavering in her belief that more than one person was involved in Lauren’s disappearance, and long frustrated by the silence of those whom she says must know something.
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http://people.com/crime/lauren-spierer-disappearance-we-live-with-it-every-day-says-mom/

In another article, DM and DH are discounted as 'wild cards' http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/new...e2bb08b53.html (Article now only available to subscribers but quoted in an earlier post)
 
AbbeyR said:
@Ros Here's a quote from one of the articles - It says the Spierers' have been told there is no connection to DM - I suppose that could mean either he has been ruled out (easy enough if he was not in Bloomington at the time or had an alibi) -- or that there was no evidence (yet) linking him to the case. Based on the context and tone of the comments, I read it as the former, but as we've seen over and over again, the information from LE is often open to interpretation.



http://people.com/crime/lauren-spierer-disappearance-we-live-with-it-every-day-says-mom/

In another article, DM and DH are discounted as 'wild cards' http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/new...e2bb08b53.html (Article now only available to subscribers but quoted in an earlier post)
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I think all of the dismissing of DM as a POI in Lauren's case happened before the identifying of his DNA on a rape kit of a victim
who lived.

Again, YeahBabs' map will show that JW lived right around the corner from Yogis and also from Hannah Wilson.

We need to put this new (to us) victim on the map and check for proximity.

Abby, what detective wouldn't consider DM as a POI in Lauren's case when her boyfriend lived right around the corner from Yogis?

Here you have a confirmed killer who stalked women, hanging out in a bar, and killing on Thirsty Thursday, the night Lauren was out as well? In the early friday hours, when Lauren was missing as well?

He makes sense as a serial rapist/killer when you read about him circling the block many times around Hannah's house. If you are familiar with the area as I am, you will notice that when you widen his block circling it would also be easy for him to circle the blocks around Yogis and Kilroys and see it as a net to catch women walking home either from Yogis or Kilroys towards the apts (5N, SW, Morton Place, 10th and C, etc).

RR was caught with his scope aimed towards kilroys' front
door iirc. But, if you go to the back of the parking garage roof you could also check out women walking from the Yogis direction and also see them turn into side streets all along that direction.

To me, at the very least DM looks good for this and my hinky meter says he knows JMW and DH.. .very possibly RR.

at first LE said no connection to Lauren, but they are walking that back now, it seems, if ever so gently, from what the above posted links are implying..

also, am I reading too much into the fact that the mods have merged the two threads?
 
Ixchel13 said:
akh I see you're here, please give a detailed surmisal of why you think DM is POI or could or should be. TIA,
Click to expand...

Nothing concrete other than the M.O. and a lot of similarities. From the outside looking in, the common narrative(s) all lead us to deadends (which isn't to say LE doesn't have more). Meanwhile, you have this now convicted murderer that kidnapped a college girl in the same general area, with a lot of other similarities. And now stretch the idea of simple coincidences when tied to this new rape case.

And let's face it, had he not dropped his phone, or had he better been able to hide the body, he's probably not convicted in the HW case either.

Also, there was some undercurrent early on that he had some sort of prior relationship/contact with HW that didn't make this case so random (in fact I believe his father indicated DM had mentioned meeting/knowing a Hannah (which could've been a red herring in the end). I'm not sure anything ever come of that line of thinking in the trial. So coming out the other end of the trial, it's looking more random. And then add the rape case with his DNA tying him directly to that case (and no info that would indicate the victim in anyway knew her attacker would also seem to put him on a track to make him someone that attacks randomly). Or I suppose it could still be he secretly stalked a victim, but nothing there would exclude LS from that scenario.

And of course, as said by one of the mothers, it's hard to believe this was his first victim at his age. And now we know that he'd at least acted once before against a random victim even though it didn't end in a murder. In fact, if you believe potentially the wrong person was convicted in the Jill Behrmen case then DM has to be a consideration there too.

Obviously, LE should be able to sort some of this out by knowing his alibi and how airtight it is or isn't. Clearly, going back to JB would be hard without a confession or some piece of evidence/DNA being found where it shouldn't be.

But if he doesn't have an airtight alibi for the night LS went missing, then he's certainly made himself a POI at this point.
 
The fact is Bloomington did have a serial predator. DM is now in a psychiatric ward at a State Prison. there's a good chance that he killed Lauren and hurt other girls as well. Southern Indiana is now a safer place.
 
Just checking in. It's good to see Ixchel13 and other familiar names are still around. I've been too busy all year, to keep up on the thread. But I do not believe Daniel Messel is involved in the Spierer case. As I say, I haven't been keeping up with the thread, but have people commented on the Indiana State Police business card found in the bag Messel was--presumably--going to dispose of, when he was caught and arrested? I don't know if the article is available for free online anywhere, but in the August 5th, 2016 Herald Times (Bloomington's local paper) in an article entitled Messel trial testimony focuses on evidence at crime scene, by Laura Lane and By Abby Tonsing, it states the following:

"[Indiana State Police crime scene investigator Chris Lewis] also testified he got to work on the contents of the clear plastic bag police say they collected from Messel's yard at the time of his arrest.

"Inside: a pair of brown Skechers shoes, a Cincinnati Reds baseball T-shirt, a pair of boxer briefs, one tan sock, 6 cents in change, scratch-off lottery tickets and an Indiana State Police business card, Lewis said."

When I read that, it made me think that Messel was using a police business card to impersonate a police officer, and that that's how he was able to get into Hannah's place, without force--and perhaps also how he might have gotten her to come with him, without force. After all, why else would he put the card in with the other guilty evidence, unless it was part of the crime?

Anyway, thought I'd share that thought, just by way of saying hello again to the group. I plan to do more investigating into the Spierer case around Bloomington when I can in the future. Based on some interviews I've done this year, I believe someone other than Messel is responsible for Lauren's disappearance. But, of course, it's a mystery.
 
Vidocq said:
Just checking in. It's good to see Ixchel13 and other familiar names are still around. I've been too busy all year, to keep up on the thread. But I do not believe Daniel Messel is involved in the Spierer case. As I say, I haven't been keeping up with the thread, but have people commented on the Indiana State Police business card found in the bag Messel was--presumably--going to dispose of, when he was caught and arrested? I don't know if the article is available for free online anywhere, but in the August 5th, 2016 Herald Times (Bloomington's local paper) in an article entitled Messel trial testimony focuses on evidence at crime scene, by Laura Lane and By Abby Tonsing, it states the following:

"[Indiana State Police crime scene investigator Chris Lewis] also testified he got to work on the contents of the clear plastic bag police say they collected from Messel's yard at the time of his arrest.

"Inside: a pair of brown Skechers shoes, a Cincinnati Reds baseball T-shirt, a pair of boxer briefs, one tan sock, 6 cents in change, scratch-off lottery tickets and an Indiana State Police business card, Lewis said."

When I read that, it made me think that Messel was using a police business card to impersonate a police officer, and that that's how he was able to get into Hannah's place, without force--and perhaps also how he might have gotten her to come with him, without force. After all, why else would he put the card in with the other guilty evidence, unless it was part of the crime?

Anyway, thought I'd share that thought, just by way of saying hello again to the group. I plan to do more investigating into the Spierer case around Bloomington when I can in the future. Based on some interviews I've done this year, I believe someone other than Messel is responsible for Lauren's disappearance. But, of course, it's a mystery.
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yes it could be a long shot I agree. However, I remember one of your interviews in particular, the bar mgr. witness.

we had several discussions in past years about what it means to be a "bar manager" in Bloomington. Usually there's one or two general mgrs, like general mr. and assist. general manager; then several shift managers. also, shift managers often close down for GMs.

As my experience was a shift mgr. who closed, I think that's what this woman was as well.

Remember, your interview was about Lauren, but you were at Yogi's
interviewing the ONLY eye witness to Lauren's demise, and it was the bar manager of Yogi's, DM's hangout on every Thursday night.

You did this interview BEFORE Hannah was killed. You were interviewing a witness of a possible abduction and murder; and this witness KNEW our killer DM.

Could you repost that interview? I feel like this witness holds
important keys to both investigations. Obs DM is already convicted of Hannah's murder, but the connection between the two lies with this witness, IMO.

I remember in your interview her saying that she had quit and then was rehired, but later you said she had quit again due to ....
some kind of trouble, I wonder when it was that she quit?

I agree the situation points toward these POI students, her "friends".
But could it be possible that the :POIs WERE up to something, like releasing Lauren into the hands of her a ngry boyfriend, but as they
let her go into the night, someone else grabbed her? like DM waiting in the shadows?

This could explain why JR says he thought she was at the corner with someone? And could it explain why JW accused not JR, the last to see her, but CR?

If JW thought JR was going to release Lauren so he could catch her
on her way home, and JR thought JW
was picking her up--but she didn't make it around the corner, and now JW is telling JR she was never there, I can see why both guys would think each other is lying.

These "kids" could be lying about stalking Lauren, trying to get her into trouble with her BF, and lying about, and for, JW because maybe deep in their minds they are not totally sure he didn't kill her!

They could be lying about the drugs, who sold them, and how it would hurt their careers. They could be lying about hounding Lauren back onto the street, about knowing she needed help but not answering their doors or phones.

So many have worked on this case it's almost certain that something happened out of the ordinary. They could even have placed an unconscious Lauren outside by the dumpster so she wouldn't die in their house and leave cadaverine, and when they brought a car around to get her, she could have been already taken.

We kinda have surmised that whatever happened after she "left", happened quickly. Had she been on the street for any length of time
she might have been seen, as in the Kelly person walking right by
where she supposedly was at almost the very same time.

So I'm leaning towards the friends were definitely up to something, it concerned Lauren, and they're lying to protect someone who probably didn't murder, or even dispose, of her body, but unable to prove that if they admit to any of it.
 
also maybe someone can help me remember this case:

A woman iirc had the typical disagreement with her boyfriend, started walking home, he followed her
because he was worried, kept trying to get her in the car, iirc, but she wouldn't (hey I've done this lol). Finally they get right across from her yard, she tells him to eff off and he goes. She finds out she's locked out, goes to the side of her house and tries to break in a window and gets raped and murdered.

Can't remember how they finally found out boyfriend was not the killer. it was on WS. Terrible when the mind goes...can't remember.

But, boyfriend fights with her. Boyfriend follows her.
someone else was right there, right there.

vaguely like Lauren's case, vaguely like Hannahs, these cases follow a pattern but the common denominator is lost confused lamb gets separated from flock and stalking jackal pounces.
 
Ixchel13 said:
...Remember, your interview was about Lauren, but you were at Yogi's
interviewing the ONLY eye witness to Lauren's demise, and it was the bar manager of Yogi's, DM's hangout on every Thursday night.

You did this interview BEFORE Hannah was killed. You were interviewing a witness of a possible abduction and murder; and this witness KNEW our killer DM.

Could you repost that interview? I feel like this witness holds
important keys to both investigations. Obs DM is already convicted of Hannah's murder, but the connection between the two lies with this witness, IMO.

I remember in your interview her saying that she had quit and then was rehired, but later you said she had quit again due to ....
some kind of trouble, I wonder when it was that she quit?
...
Click to expand...

It was before Hannah was killed, but it actually wasn't at Yogi's. And she didn't mention anything about quitting and being rehired, or the circumstances under which she left her bar-manager job.

In any case, these days I tend to believe that the police were right, and that the bar-manager witness saw CR and Lauren shortly after 2:30 am, not 3:38, on their way to his place. In which case, we're back to the official story, and the most probable thing is that events starting going wrong at 5 North Townhomes, after CR and Lauren arrived there subsequent to 2:51 am, and the secrecy and lying start from there.
 
Vidocq said:
It was before Hannah was killed, but it actually wasn't at Yogi's. And she didn't mention anything about quitting and being rehired, or the circumstances under which she left her bar-manager job.

In any case, these days I tend to believe that the police were right, and that the bar-manager witness saw CR and Lauren shortly after 2:30 am, not 3:38, on their way to his place. In which case, we're back to the official story, and the most probable thing is that events starting going wrong at 5 North Townhomes, after CR and Lauren arrived there subsequent to 2:51 am, and the secrecy and lying start from there.
Click to expand...

ok, but I reread some PMs you sent me and either you went to Yogis and they told you she worked at another local bar or, you WERE at Yogis! which is it?
I get it, the case becomes much more sensitive when the same bar witness was also the bar manager at the same place Hannah was at the same time as DM, and that was probably on most Thursdays.
So, the bar witness knew at least by site both DM and Hannah; on a regular basis; and the bar witness was the only one to admit seeing Lauren gravely injured!
and no, I respectfully disagree, I still think there were two, and now maybe three, situations with Lauren:
1. The altercation and subsequent trying to get in to 10th and C and then on to 5N
2. Lauren left 5N possibly alone and tried to get back into 10th and C and was stalked/taken back up to 5N to wait for JW to get her. I think they didn't want her to get back into her apartment building because then, JW wouldn't be able to confront her, which could have been the outcome they were trying for.
3. JR "released" Lauren to walk around the corner, and possibly JW was waiting in the gravel alley right N of 10th and C, but before she got there, Lauren was grabbed and dragged through a walkway between houses right past the corner, into the back parking lot behind 5N, and into a car or van. By the time 3 min had passed, she would be a mile away with no trace, and both JW and JR would think each could be lying. That explains , IMO, why they decide to accost CR because they might have thought he doubled back and grabbed Lauren.

crazy I know, and all just IMO, MOO, JMO, but something weird happened, and it could explain why everyone is lying! One really weird thing is the "sobriety test" which can also be interpreted in a totally different way, i.e. that JR was not letting her go unless she could walk in a straight line, and implies that he was controlling her and then released her to walk out.

Because if they told that to LE, LE would also think that one of the two [JR,JW}, if not both, were lying and hurt Lauren.. Even if LE couldn't actually prove they didn't harm Lauren, it would place them directly in a scenario where either [or both] could have harmed her, whereas saying she merely walked out the door makes it very difficult to charge any of them and make it stick.

Saying," yeah, we did drugs with her all night, we stalked her and beat up her escort, hounded her into the night, did more drugs with her,then called her boyfriend to get her, but as he waited in the alley to surprise her and confront her, she never showed, even as JR watched her round the corner 150 feet away.

That story would open up Pandora's Box for the 5N POI even if it were true! The high powered criminal lawyer would coach them to say, "hey, she walked out the door, and I think I saw someone approaching her at the corner." Dragging JW into it would again be admitting that they plotted with JW to catch her and possibly participated in harassing her and would be opening up a guilty scenario and even circumstantial evidence enough to charge them! just sayin, MOO
 
Vidocq said:
It was before Hannah was killed, but it actually wasn't at Yogi's. And she didn't mention anything about quitting and being rehired, or the circumstances under which she left her bar-manager job.

In any case, these days I tend to believe that the police were right, and that the bar-manager witness saw CR and Lauren shortly after 2:30 am, not 3:38, on their way to his place. In which case, we're back to the official story, and the most probable thing is that events starting going wrong at 5 North Townhomes, after CR and Lauren arrived there subsequent to 2:51 am, and the secrecy and lying start from there.
Click to expand...

Hi Vidocq! What made you change your mind?
 
Lot of red herrings here .
 
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