Israel - Palestinian militants launch massive attack, 7 Oct 2023 #13

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A world away from Gaza, Palestinian Americans in this New Jersey community hold their breath​


“You haven’t checked your phone yet,” Mustafa’s sister said, “have you?”
“I spent the next three hours on my phone, crying uncontrollably,” Mustafa recalled to CNN. “Because I knew what was to come. And I just couldn’t – all I could think of was that, like, so many people are gonna get killed now. That’s all I could think. I’m like, this is gonna be horrible.” Noreen Rashid, a 21-year-old who like Mustafa grew up in New Jersey, had a similar reaction to news of the Hamas attack, she told CNN. She wondered what it would mean, in turn, for her parents’ families in Gaza. “I knew that, whatever the repercussions were going to be, were going to be hell,” she said.

Her family lives in that hell now. Six of her family members have been killed in Gaza, Rashid told CNN. Among them were her little cousins, 12-year-old Nouran Allouh and 10-year-old Razan Allouh — two of the more than 4,700 children killed in Gaza since October 7, per the Palestinian Health Ministry in Ramallah, which draws its figures from sources in Hamas-run Gaza.

It’s unclear how exactly the girls were killed, Rashid said, but they had stepped out to fill a bucket of water to use as a shower when the family heard a noise — a sniper, they believe — and looked out to see the sisters lying dead on the ground.

Their father Ahmad Allouh “lived for his daughters,” Rashid said, describing him as headstrong and firm, a protector – the kind of man who built his daughters’ bedroom furniture himself. Their killings cast him immediately into a state Rashid’s grandmother likened to a psychosis, the 21-year-old told CNN.

Despite his family’s pleas, Rashid’s uncle went outside to cover his daughters’ bodies, she said. And he lay down between them to say goodbye.

“And then they shot him,” Rashid told CNN. “They killed all three of them.”

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I guess I am confused by your question. If Hamas kidnaps people and takes them somewhere, Hamas is responsible for them. Even in Hamas transfers custody of them to someone else, Hamas is still responsible for them. If someone breaks into my home and steals my TV, is it my fault because I didn't have a stronger lock on my door? Or is it the fault of the burglar?

My original response was in response to an article about Israeli hostages being killed by Israeli bombs. Why is Israel absolved of all responsibility from harming or murdering their own citizens if they are the only democracy in the middle east and have all of the US's technology and weaponry? Why can't they save their citizens? And why is it waved off if their citizens DO die as collateral damage? It seems as if everyone has lost their humanity in this situation and is too eager to kill innocents or write them off as collateral damage - Israeli hostages included.
 

These are the 11 Israeli hostages released on the fourth-day of the truce

Israeli hostages released on November 27, 2023: Top L-R: Sharon Aloni Cunio and her children Emma and Yuli, siblings Sahar and Erez Calderon; bottom: Karina Engel-Bart and her children Mika and Yuval, siblings Yagil and Or Yaakov, and Eitan Yahalomi. (Courtesy; combination image: Times of Israel)
Israeli hostages released on November 27, 2023: Top L-R: Sharon Aloni Cunio and her children Emma and Yuli, siblings Sahar and Erez Calderon; bottom: Karina Engel-Bart and her children Mika and Yuval, siblings Yagil and Or Yaakov, and Eitan Yahalomi. (Courtesy; combination image: Times of Israel)


“All of the hostages were abducted from Kibbutz Nir Oz during the October 7 massacre.”


Sharon Aloni Cunio, 33

Emma Cunio, 3
Yuli Cunio, 3
* Father David Cunio remains hostage

Karina Engel-Bart, 51
Mika Engel, 18
Yuval Engel, 10
* Father Ronen Engel remains hostage

Sahar Calderon, 16
Erez Calderon, 12

* Father Ofer Calderon remains hostage

Or Yaakov, 16
Yagil Yaakov, 12

* Father Yair Yaakov and girlfriend Meirav Tal remain hostage

Eitan Yahalomi, 12
* Father Ohad Yahalomi remains hostage
 
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I guess I am confused by your question. If Hamas kidnaps people and takes them somewhere, Hamas is responsible for them. Even in Hamas transfers custody of them to someone else, Hamas is still responsible for them. If someone breaks into my home and steals my TV, is it my fault because I didn't have a stronger lock on my door? Or is it the fault of the burglar?
I fully agree.

In a legal court using western jurisprudence, HAMAS still retains responsibility for any hostages transferred to smaller groups (probably transferred as a "reward" for participating in the October 07 attack).

Going back to Gaza....

I just dont know if HAMAS- or the other group, accept western jurisprudence and are readily inclined to apply it.
 
My original response was in response to an article about Israeli hostages being killed by Israeli bombs. Why is Israel absolved of all responsibility from harming or murdering their own citizens if they are the only democracy in the middle east and have all of the US's technology and weaponry? Why can't they save their citizens? And why is it waved off if their citizens DO die as collateral damage? It seems as if everyone has lost their humanity in this situation and is too eager to kill innocents or write them off as collateral damage - Israeli hostages included.
This is war. But these innocent civilians were in the their homes to start. Why did they end up in a war zone? Because Hamas kidnapped them and put them there. IDF is waging a war. Yes, they want to rescue hostages, but the primary goal is to destroy Hamas. If Hamas puts the hostages in the same place as targets for the IDF, that is the fault of Hamas. Not IDF.
 
My original response was in response to an article about Israeli hostages being killed by Israeli bombs. Why is Israel absolved of all responsibility from harming or murdering their own citizens if they are the only democracy in the middle east and have all of the US's technology and weaponry? Why can't they save their citizens? And why is it waved off if their citizens DO die as collateral damage? It seems as if everyone has lost their humanity in this situation and is too eager to kill innocents or write them off as collateral damage - Israeli hostages included.
First, you have to know where they are. Secondly, you have to be able to get to them. Hamas isn’t the only terrorist organization holding hostages, and Israel doesn’t know where all the tunnels are. These things are like mazes, and entering them pretty much makes it like shooting fish in a barrel as far as Hamas goes.

That’s a great way to lose a lot of soldiers, and hostages as well.
 
My original response was in response to an article about Israeli hostages being killed by Israeli bombs. Why is Israel absolved of all responsibility from harming or murdering their own citizens if they are the only democracy in the middle east and have all of the US's technology and weaponry? Why can't they save their citizens? And why is it waved off if their citizens DO die as collateral damage? It seems as if everyone has lost their humanity in this situation and is too eager to kill innocents or write them off as collateral damage - Israeli hostages included.
I have not read anything about Israil bombs killing Israeli hostages. I read that when Noa Marciano's kidnapper was killed by Israelis, she was taken across the street to the Al Shifa Hospital where she was murdered. I posted the Hamas video here showing Noa speaking, then showing her body with a severe wound to the back of her head and her right foot amputated (and lying on the bed at the end of her leg).

Hamas claimed that she was killed by an Israeli airstrike, but that it not true. Evidence proves that she was murdered.

The question of why Israel is unable to save hostages who have been kept in underground tunnels beneath hospitals for the past 2 months ... that's an easy question to answer. Israel does not bomb hospitals. IDF has gone door to door to get to the hospital and they have had to deal with boobytraps and snipers to enter the hospital tunnels. Is there another option for rescuing the hostages that Israel didn't think of?
 
My original response was in response to an article about Israeli hostages being killed by Israeli bombs. Why is Israel absolved of all responsibility from harming or murdering their own citizens if they are the only democracy in the middle east and have all of the US's technology and weaponry? Why can't they save their citizens? And why is it waved off if their citizens DO die as collateral damage? It seems as if everyone has lost their humanity in this situation and is too eager to kill innocents or write them off as collateral damage - Israeli hostages included.
I can't speak to what the person that wrote the article thinks, but I can explain what I think in response to your questions.

I don't think anyone is writing off the death of innocent civilians.. not Palestinians and not the hostages. Israel gave so much time. They didn't even enter Gaza for nearly a month. HAMAS does not think like normal people. They desired to cause mass civilian damage. They can not be treated as a military equal. They are barbaric and not civilized. If anyone lacks humanity it's them and only them. They will not just give back the hostages. They could make ALL of the chaos end if they did that. They don't want that. The only way to get those hostages back was to go into Gaza and either 1. get them 2. put so much pressure on HAMAS that they agree to negotiate to release them

Why did HAMAS all the sudden decide to agree to a deal?

Look at what HAMAS wants in exchanged. Israel is giving up A LOT for those hostages and weather that is going to end up hurting them, they took the risk because they want those innocent civilians back.

Israel has tried to limit any civilian loss of life. If they didn't care at all, they wouldn't have waited, warned, waited some more, tried to negotiate, warned them again, waited, etc. I don't understand how many can't see how patient Israel has been. At the same time Israel is doing all that, HAMAS is telling it's people to stay put, die Martyrs. How can Israel work with people like that?

How patient would you (general you) be if someone came into your house, raped one of your children, murdered them in front of you, abducted 2 other children and your wife and then burned your house down with your dead daughter in it? I don't know many that would say oh let's just wait out the terrorists. The longer the waiting out, the worse the conditions are for not only the hostages, but the civilians in Gaza. The quicker this comes to and end the better for all, including the people living in Gaza.

There is of course a risk to Israel bombing places in Gaza.. civilians, hostages, and HAMAS can all be in those locations. I trust they are using the intel they have to make the best decisions on where to bomb. I know for sure doing nothing is not going to get the hostages back alive.
 
It wasn't that easy. The image was from Oct 13th.

The earliest link you provided is from Nov 10th
and that was the Children's hospital, which took alot of work and collaboration with St Jude's to evacuate. Only the cancer patients were able to be evacuated. The rest of the hospital didn't have evacuation assistance and left via the streets, mostly on foot.

Egypt did not accept the first patients until Nov 1st. Also, Israel and Qatar must pre-approve any transfers to Egypt to assure that they aren't sending Hamas militants over.

Even then, they only allowed critical care patients. Space was extremely limited.

Although Israel ordered the evacuation, there was nowhere for 2,000 patients to go. Nov 7: 'How are they going to evacuate them?': The search for solutions to Gaza's hospital crisis The WHO said on November 2 that just 46 patients and 36 family members had managed to pass through the tightly controlled crossing.



Currently there now more field hospitals, but space is still limited. It appears UAE and Jordan have about 200 beds in Gaza. But the Jordanian hospital was hit by an Israeli airstrike.

People just can't get in an ambulance and go to Egypt. Each patient must be pre-approved by Israel and Qatar.

I can't get the exact number of beds available outside of Gaza or how many have been transported. But here is the number for Turkey. Looks like 87 as of Nov 20th.

On Nov 15th 26 patients arrived in Turkey https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveb...accepted-26-patients-from-gaza-for-treatment/
On Nov 20th 61 patients arrived in Turkey Nearly 200 Gaza evacuees to arrive in Turkey
Health Minister Fahrettin Koca said 61 patients, accompanied by 49 relatives, had arrived in Ankara on Monday afternoon after being brought out to Egypt on Sunday. Footage showed Koca at the Esenboga airport in Ankara greeting the people who were taken to hospital on ambulances.
Separately, a group of 87 Turks, Turkish Cypriots, and their relatives arrived in Egypt from Gaza on Sunday and were set to fly to Istanbul late on Monday, Foreign Ministry Spokesman Oncu Keceli said.
Israel did not invade Gaza until October 27th. (Couldn't access the original post)
Not sure how the damage occurred Oct 13th. Could it have been hamas? Moo

On the evening of 27 October 2023, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) launched a large-scale invasion[16][17] inside the Gaza Strip, as part of the 2023 Israel–Hamas war, with the stated goal of destroying Hamas and overthrowing it.[18]
 
Here is another article that explains how not everyone was able to evacuate:

Wounded patients left at Gaza’s al-Shifa Hospital face dire conditions​


View attachment 464177

Maybe that lying Dr Mads Gilbert can run back in to help. He's been saying "I''m trying to get back to Gaza" and blames it on everyone else that he can't return. IMO he's not brave enough to return.
 
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