Jodi Arias; the sequence of events

[BW0000]

Doesn't seem possible to zoom on that last one?

Are you saving it to your computer then zooming? Is that a towel or mat by TA's right foot?

 

[SMK]

Are you saving it to your computer then zooming? Is that a towel or mat by TA's right foot?

OK, that does look like a towel by his foot.

 

[Captain86]

Thanks for stepping up to the challenge and giving it a shot. A few comments:

Why would Jodi have let Travis get up from a vulnerable seated position an a small enclosure before initiating the attack? This is the biggest problem with your theory. Travis is a physically imposing man to Jodi. Seated in a small shower stall puts him an ideal position for Jodi to initiate the attack. She is now standing above him, and he is trapped without any leverage. But I think knife-firsters need the attack to start outside of the shower because it would make no sense to start trying to stab Travis in the shower while he was sitting down. This does not represent an ideal target at all for a knife attack, as vital organs are not exposed. However, it represents a very nice target for a sudden gunshot to the head. And of course the bullet trajectory matches this scenario perfectly. In the final shower photo, Travis' right side is toward Jodi. Travis is shot in the right forehead. The bullet trajectory is down through the face. Travis is sitting down, Jodi is standing up with the gun. It is simply a perfect fit.

In your scenario, Travis gets himself up and out of the shower before the attack begins. He would likely have dried off prior to using the toilet in your scenario. Then he uses the toilet. Then Jodi approaches him with the camera to show him the photos. He takes the camera, Jodi suddenly stabs him. All this in 45 seconds? What is Jodi doing, standing by with the camera while Travis dries off and takes a pee?

After Travis picks himself up near the toilet (following the initial attack and knocking Jodi back/down), he travels to the sink, faces the sink for several seconds coughing blood. If he had an advantage over Jodi with her off her feet or knocked back, why would he not take advantage of this and try to fully subdue her? Instead, you have him turning around to face the mirror, leaving himself completely vulnerable to another attack from behind?

...
Dave

Sitting in the shower is not the only vulnerable position he could be in. All he needs to be is unsuspecting. The Trajectory for the bullet through the skull does not match up real well with him sitting in the shower. To get from the where the bullet entered the Frontal Bone to where it re-entered the Ethmoid Bone at midline, is a very steep angle. Too steep for her to be 3-4ft back from him (which would put the gun at the 2ft minimum distance). I've taken a skull apart and looked at it. It is much steeper than many perceive it to be. So, I disagree that the trajectory matches up perfectly with how he was positioned in the last known picture of him.

He stopped at the mirror because he had to. He is having trouble breathing. He has been stabbed at least a couple of times. He is in early stages of shock, and he makes it to the sink turns to look at the damage and coughs. This could have taken no more than 2 seconds It isn't like he is stopping to do a detailed analysis of the wounds. He squares up for a second to take in what has been done to him and he involunarily coughs. It hurts. He clutches his chest and/or his stomach, and doubles over the sink in pain resulting in the vertical drops of blood on the sink surface.

Most people's first instinct in dealing with an assailant with a knife is to get away from them. My guess is that your first instinct would be stronger after getting stabbed. He is trying to get out of the bathroom. It is hard to predict whether a person is going to shut down, try to run, fight back, or some combinaton of running and fighting. We all like to think we would fight back from the start, but this is rarely the case. These are the people that usually live to tell the story. It appears that he tried to both fight back and get out of the bathroom, defensive wounds and his apparent path down the right side of the hallway, but did not make it. Pain and fear cloud the mind. It would be impossible to predict why he did or did not do something that seems clearly the choice for us who are trying to speculate on what he could haveshould have done.

There is nearly 2 minutes from the sitting in the shower pic until the dragging pic. So there was some time between the sitting and ceiling pics (I can't find the ceiling pic with a time stamp on it). I beilieve it was about a minute between those two. That would be plenty of time for him to pee and her to get the knife while he is peeing. She may have got him when he stepped out of the shower after drying off. He didn't have to got to the toilet. She comes at him from the right which forces him to his left toward the toilet and scales.

In my opinion, for what that's worth, the attack truely started at about the time of the ceiling pic. Whoever had the camera dropped it as the attack started. I'll get to the rest of your response in a few.

 

[pip]

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Jodi Arias TAKES THE STAND #26 *may contain graphic and adult content*

I think the bottom picture is a good one to show you her foot. You can see it is her right foot. The heel is twoards you as you look at it, you can see it is the right lateral or outer aspect of her foot and her toes pointed towards his right shoulder. It also shows that she has her foot planted flat but it is dug in like she is leaning to the left and doing something requiring her to lean left and dig her foot in. (Think of a skier cutting left) I think she is pulling up on him.

 

[BW0000]

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Jodi Arias TAKES THE STAND #26 *may contain graphic and adult content*

I think the bottom picture is a good one to show you her foot. You can see it is her right foot. The heel is twoards you as you look at it, you can see it is the right lateral or outer aspect of her foot and her toes pointed towards his right shoulder. It also shows that she has her foot planted flat but it is dug in like she is leaning to the left and doing something requiring her to lean left and dig her foot in. (Think of a skier cutting left) I think she is pulling up on him.

Yip

Yes. The stripes have to be on the outside of the sweat pants. Her toes shape is the confusing part. Right foot it is.

 

[Ammonitida]

Sitting in the shower is not the only vulnerable position he could be in. All he needs to be is unsuspecting. The Trajectory for the bullet through the skull does not match up real well with him sitting in the shower. To get from the where the bullet entered the Frontal Bone to where it re-entered the Ethmoid Bone at midline, is a very steep angle. Too steep for her to be 3-4ft back from him (which would put the gun at the 2ft minimum distance). I've taken a skull apart and looked at it. It is much steeper than many perceive it to be. So, I disagree that the trajectory matches up perfectly with how he was positioned in the last known picture of him.

He stopped at the mirror because he had to. He is having trouble breathing. He has been stabbed at least a couple of times. He is in early stages of shock, and he makes it to the sink turns to look at the damage and coughs. This could have taken no more than 2 seconds It isn't like he is stopping to do a detailed analysis of the wounds. He squares up for a second to take in what has been done to him and he involunarily coughs. It hurts. He clutches his chest and/or his stomach, and doubles over the sink in pain resulting in the vertical drops of blood on the sink surface.

Most people's first instinct in dealing with an assailant with a knife is to get away from them. My guess is that your first instinct would be stronger after getting stabbed. He is trying to get out of the bathroom. It is hard to predict whether a person is going to shut down, try to run, fight back, or some combinaton of running and fighting. We all like to think we would fight back from the start, but this is rarely the case. These are the people that usually live to tell the story. It appears that he tried to both fight back and get out of the bathroom, defensive wounds and his apparent path down the right side of the hallway, but did not make it. Pain and fear cloud the mind. It would be impossible to predict why he did or did not do something that seems clearly the choice for us who are trying to speculate on what he could haveshould have done.

There is nearly 2 minutes from the sitting in the shower pic until the dragging pic. So there was some time between the sitting and ceiling pics (I can't find the ceiling pic with a time stamp on it). I beilieve it was about a minute between those two. That would be plenty of time for him to pee and her to get the knife while he is peeing. She may have got him when he stepped out of the shower after drying off. He didn't have to got to the toilet. She comes at him from the right which forces him to his left toward the toilet and scales.

In my opinion, for what that's worth, the attack truely started at about the time of the ceiling pic. Whoever had the camera dropped it as the attack started. I'll get to the rest of your response in a few.

I personally think that the bullet ricocheted off the skull and that explains the odd trajectory. The ME couldn't rule this out.

 

[weather_lady]

I think she took them from a restaurant, too. She had worked at a variety of them.

I've been assuming all this time that she bought a ceramic (or similar) utility knife -- the kind that is commonly sold with a hard plastic sheath. I've assumed this because I think she brought the knife inside of her purse and would have wanted to keep it from cutting the inside.

However, your theory reminds me of something. When I was in college and moving twice a year, I owned a single sharp cooking knife that didn't have a sheath. When I needed to pack up my things to go home for the summer, my typical practice was to make a temporary protective sheath for the knife by taking a piece of cardboard and folding it around the blade -- and then securing it to the knife handle with a piece of duct tape. Which brings to mind the mysterious piece of duct tape found on TA's bathroom floor...

Just a thought. If she did bring a knife from work (or any knife that didn't have a sheath), the duct tape might have had something to do with her efforts to make it "safe" inside her purse...

 

[weather_lady]

Yip

Yes. The stripes have to be on the outside of the sweat pants. Her toes shape is the confusing part. Right foot it is.

I actually Googled around to see if I could find any track pants that had stripes on the inside of the legs, just to test this out. I could find only one particular make and design that does, and they have three small parallel stripes on the inside of the leg (and a totally different cut from the ones in the photo). I'm with you -- right foot, no question.

 

[BW0000]

OK, that does look like a towel by his foot.

That other shape appears to be the vanity sink..darker and rectangle shaped...I'm guess it's the sink and that would put her by the shower (opposite side of room) Again, just a guess

 

[SMK]

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Jodi Arias TAKES THE STAND #26 *may contain graphic and adult content*

I think the bottom picture is a good one to show you her foot. You can see it is her right foot. The heel is twoards you as you look at it, you can see it is the right lateral or outer aspect of her foot and her toes pointed towards his right shoulder. It also shows that she has her foot planted flat but it is dug in like she is leaning to the left and doing something requiring her to lean left and dig her foot in. (Think of a skier cutting left) I think she is pulling up on him.

Wow, see in this one I CAN - for the first time - see it as her right and not left foot. thanks:clap:

 

[weather_lady]

Here's what I put together yesterday. I think this is the match, as the tile grouting matches in addition to the tile marbling. In the comparison you found, the tile grouting does not match.

Here I've compared two scenarios: one in which the foot in the photo is Jodi's right foot (state's scenario) and one in which the foot is her left foot (potential for knocking the camera with her right foot).

Btw, I think I'm in 'right' camp....

Dave

Great work on the tile comparison. I'm a "right-footer" too, and I can't help but notice how well the blood evidence that is visible in that photo aligns with the position of TA's body, as you've pictured it. The accidental photo suggests that there was a "pause" in the location where it was taken, as JA stopped dragging TA from his feet and returned to stand at his head (either to shift his body, or to respond to his own attempt at movement). That "pause" would appear to be reflected in the especially large deposit of blood running in the grout lines of the tile in the location you've pinpointed.

 

[christee]

A while back in the trial I had an aha! moment when I realized the pants reminded me of a pair my DD has. I do think JAs pants were a darker blue, maybe even black and the bottom of the pants leg is "twisted" from being pressed against TA and that's why the zipper is in the back. I think there could be another stripe on the other side of the zipper. Here's the pics of my DD's pants...

 

[Captain86]

Hemodynamically speaking, I think he was in severe hypovolemic and cardiogenic shock (and pericardial sac hit too so he would have been starting to tamponade as well) before the throat slashing happened. Even though his vessels would have been clamped down to shunt blood to vital organs, he just didn't have enough pressure to really spray much blood as the carotids were cut. He merely bled out massively on the carpet with what little pressure he had left.

While the hypovalemic shock and the Tamponade are possibilities, it is hard to say that he would have entered into either one in a minute. The indication is that there was some blood in the Pericardial Sac, but nothing to suggest the amount needed to push him into Tamonade.

Cardiogenic shock is usually a failure of the ventricles due lack of oxygen to the heart muscle or some type of insult like a MI. So while it could be a factor, probably not in the time frame TA was dealing with.

Hypovolemic Shock is closer to the issue the ME was talking about when he said that the stab to the chest could be fatal, but was the least incapacitating, if he did not get medical attention. Regardless, there would still have been some spray from the Carotids being cut. It is clear by the carpet that his body was still pumping blood out, so blood was getting to the Carotids. The Carotids would still be under pressure, so some spray would be expected. I believe he was face down when it happened, so how close he was to the floor would also be a factor. On his hands and knees, would produce a wider area of blood. While lying on his stomach, would limit how big of an area might get sprayed. In my opinion, this is what we see on the carpet.

I think had he been face up, she could not have totally avoided getting hit with some spray/splatter from cutting his throat even with the Hypovalemic Shock setting in. I don't think she would have looked like Carrie on prom night, but it most likely would have surprised her and forced her to clean herself up prior to leaving the bathroom area.

 

[Captain86]

It would be nice to have better (clearer with better lighting) pictures of the scene. Maybe the originals are better, but all the ones I have seen leave something to be desired. That formation in the tile near her heel in the dragging picture appears to be very distinct and it should be easy to find in the hallway.

 

[weather_lady]

It would be nice to have better (clearer with better lighting) pictures of the scene. Maybe the originals are better, but all the ones I have seen leave something to be desired. That formation in the tile near her heel in the dragging picture appears to be very distinct and it should be easy to find in the hallway.

It also would have helped if the tile floor and faux plaster paint treatment on the walls weren't terra cotta shades that replicate the color of dried blood! Note to self: if I anticipate my home oneday becoming a crime scene, stick to decorating in shades of white and beige!

 

[Captain86]

I believe you are mistaken here.

Of the knifes accounted for (actually in the house) at the time his body was found - there were no definite matches to the wound pattern.

Of the knife sets - all were accounted for.

It's extremely common to have knives in a home that are not part of a set. Normal, actually.

Until the knife is found (if it ever is) - there is no way to know where it came from.

I believe the testimony is that all knives from the home were accounted for and none of them match the murder weapon.

 

[BW0000]

It would be nice to have better (clearer with better lighting) pictures of the scene. Maybe the originals are better, but all the ones I have seen leave something to be desired. That formation in the tile near her heel in the dragging picture appears to be very distinct and it should be easy to find in the hallway.

Cap

I think with her foot parallel to the line it appears he is getting to the hallway perhaps by the closet but not to far outside the bathroom proper. If that is a towel and sink/vanity, you can see enough of the vanity so he's not too far in the hallway. The picture is distorted but could that shape in background be the hand mirror on keft side of vanity? Really stretching the imagination.

 

[Captain86]

I personally think that the bullet ricocheted off the skull and that explains the odd trajectory. The ME couldn't rule this out.

That is something that can never be discounted witha .25 or a .22. Where do you think it riccheted off the skull? Do you think it changed directions as it was going through the Frontal Bone (because of the noe density there) or do you think the ricochet occurred after passing through the skull?

 

[BW0000]

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/9672/1541c.jpg

 

[Katie-L]

I believe the testimony is that all knives from the home were accounted for and none of them match the murder weapon.

Not wanting to be argumentative - but the testimony was (and the facts of the testimony were) that all the knives in the knife sets were accounted for.

I believe it's impossible to account for all the knives in a household. Most people have sets, individual knives, left overs from an older set, etc. Plus many will have hunting knives, utility knives as well as knives used for various functions other than cooking / serving - most of which are individual pieces and may not be stored in a kitchen.