Judge's Order re: OP's Mental Health Eval

[Gryffindor]

Barry Bateman RT "#OscarTrial Weskoppies personnel say they've been instructed not to allow pics or video outside the facility. BB http://t.co/dqFU9yAjTw"

Source: Twitter

 

[crowmarsh]

I'd like to hire a really noisy little plane and fly it constantly over Uncle Arnold's property with a big banner reading "JUSTICE FOR REEVA'!!!

You should start a fund raising campaign count me in

 

[patCee]

I'm not alone,

But unlike many defendants who have been ordered to psychiatric evaluation, the Olympian will not be committed to a medical facility. Judge Thokozile Masipa said Pistorius must report each weekday starting Monday, but will have evenings and weekends free.

BBM

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/20/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-trial/?hpt=hp_t3

 

[Zim]

Barry Bateman RT "#OscarTrial Weskoppies personnel say they've been instructed not to allow pics or video outside the facility. BB http://t.co/dqFU9yAjTw"

Source: Twitter

:anguish::anguish::anguish::

 

[Interested Bystander]

.. sincerely hope you are right .. I just keep thinking of Shane13's posts (where is he, btw?) and that this one might well 'run deep' as he kept saying ..

Yes, Shane thinks 'it is not what you know but who you know' and deeper and possibly more sinister. On occasion, throughout this trial I think he has a valid point. BH allows bail of a murderer (whereas as a guy in a wheelchair being prosecuted for fraud is jailed for 8 months until bail hearing), within two weeks of his bail hearing OP gets virtually all of his bail restrictions lifted and now outpatient psychiatric assessment in order to jump the queue because the judge thinks he should not be punished twice! Poor call by the judge as IMO this has created a precedent that will allow all murderers to want outpatient assessment.

 

[Really?]

it will be like being in the witness stand for Oscar for 8 hours a day for 30 days.. except for weekends..

none of these psyches are on his payroll. none on uncle arthurs payroll.

I like this response the best. Makes me feel better.

 

[patCee]

Yes, Shane thinks 'it is not what you know but who you know' and deeper and possibly more sinister. On occasion, throughout this trial I think he has a valid point. BH allows bail of a murderer (whereas as a guy in a wheelchair being prosecuted for fraud is jailed for 8 months until bail hearing), within two weeks of his bail hearing OP gets virtually all of his bail restrictions lifted and now outpatient psychiatric assessment in order to jump the queue because the judge thinks he should not be punished twice! Poor call by the judge as IMO this has created a precedent that will allow all murderers to want outpatient assessment.

Maybe this will become a general thing in SA, for suitable defendants, with the hospitals and jails being so crowded.

For me the fact that Dr V described OP as dangerous if access to a gun is an issue. The court haven't mentioned a word about his bail conditions, whether these need reviewing, and crucially whether there are guns in Uncle Arnold's house. The whole ethos is that OP is not really dangerous at all and it'll all be OK with him.

 

[BritsKate]

An MSE is not a punishment but a tool to help the court. In UK, US, Canada, etc. etc. it is usually on an an outpatient basis unless the professional panel or the court finds an extremely compelling reason (extreme violence or extremely erratic behaviour) for it not to be. And Nel was in agreement with Roux for it to be on an outpatient basis and Masipa definitely wanted it too and even placed on court record her pleasure that both counsels had agree the same. Shouldn't we just now give the panel and Masipa a little trust and let them work.

Every US state has legislation stating that if a person is a danger to themselves or others, it is grounds for involuntary civil commitment. Every state has different criteria for determining such danger.

Not every state even allows for outpatient commitment.

The important aspect here is that each state has different statutes and standards for determining commitment - and only inpatient is available in some states. To me, it's kind of like comparing 50 country's laws to that of one. I take the same issue with comparing self-defence laws for the same reason - as they differ state to state.

JMO

 

[Interested Bystander]

it will be like being in the witness stand for Oscar for 8 hours a day for 30 days.. except for weekends..

none of these psyches are on his payroll. none on uncle arthurs payroll.

BIB. How do we know that? There is plenty of time for a set-up to be organised. :floorlaugh: Uncle A knows how to pull strings.

 

[patCee]

BIB. How do we know that? There is plenty of time for a set-up to be organised. :floorlaugh: Uncle A knows how to pull strings.

He only has to get at one of the psychiatric team to put a spanner in the works.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Maybe this will become a general thing in SA, for suitable defendants, with the hospitals and jails being so crowded.

For me the fact that Dr V described OP as dangerous if access to a gun is an issue. The court haven't mentioned a word about his bail conditions, whether these need reviewing, and crucially whether there are guns in Uncle Arnold's house. The whole ethos is that OP is not really dangerous at all and it'll all be OK with him.

I don't think there are any conditions left except not to carry a gun but I will try to find the relevant info.

 

[patCee]

I don't think there are any conditions left except not to carry a gun but I will try to find the relevant info.

I think you're right there, but what I meant was should the bail have been reviewed and conditions put in place, along with the psychiatric referral.

 

[fox1lady]

I don’t believe that Frank, OP’s longtime housekeeper/caretaker/gardener, was in the house at all. His living quarters were immediately outside the kitchen. OP never mentioned him being in the house.

Ever since Frank was first mentioned and it was stated that he saw and heard nothing as he had been asleep at the time, I’ve been of the firm belief that he heard a great deal, and possibly may have seen something. The very fact that he was out the front of the house talking to a security guard before anyone arrived at the scene makes this pretty obvious. You don’t get up some time after 3.00am and loiter in the driveway having a casual chat with a security guard for no reason at all. Apparently he was initially prepared to give a statement. Something then happened to change his mind.

I believe he’s been paid hush money by the Pistorius family. Obviously he wouldn’t have been earning much money, and he’s still in their employ. They probably offered him a job for life together with a substantial increase in pay and/or a lump sum. There’s never been mention that I’ve heard of him having a family so he’s got everything to gain. However if he did tell what he knew, the Pistorius family being well-connected, could make it pretty hard for him to ever get a good job again, at least in that neck of the wood IMO.

I find it very hard to believe as well. Did they ask him if he had heard anything from the time that Reeva and OP got home? He must have something to tell them surely... baffled.com

 

[Really?]

The Guardian has linked to a Blog by a psych who trained at Weskoppies

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/20/oscar-pistorius-mental-health-tests-trial-murder

http://onthecouchwithcarly.com/2014/05/19/so-who-is-really-there-oscar/

Thanks Zwi.......Carly was a good read.

 

[JudgeJudi]

<Respectfully snipped>

Then, the verdict..

The sentencing will take place most likely not at this same time.. submissions about sentencing after the verdict is handed down may take about a week. .submissions means a statement from possibly Reeva's mother, Oscar's family, his doctors, perhaps.. a submission from the prosecution office, perhaps... Oscar has been vocal about his beliefs, could be a submission from his pastor, if indeed he submits to one, which I doubt, etc..

She will deal with the little stuff first.. the ammo charge.. then the gunfiring charge , and probably pronounce a verdict on those before moving on to the murder charge.. I expect the sentencing for all charges will be given together after submissions taken.

again. in general terms..

From what I understand Masipa won't deliver her judgment for approx. 4 weeks after closing submissions. But then again, in this trial nothing would surprise me any more.

 

[Lochlynsmom]

I laughed at this Zirin character.. a trial lawyer, in the US... First thing he states is SA law is different, ergo, its wrong. 'It just wouldn't be allowed in a US court!'.. what relevance that has is beyond my comprehension. . If he thought Nel was so awful and so cruel to poor Oscar, why didn't Zarin tear strips off Oscars Defence attorney for not objecting? .. a strange omission. . His observation of Masipa was plain rude and unnecessary. It moved his frail argument not one whit further.

besides.. this Zirin person has never prosecuted a murderer ,nor has he ever defended one. He is one of those who defend corporate bank accounts.. and even lost quite a few of those cases, poor clients..

bbm- I do believe there are some posters here that think this as well.:scared:

 

[eimajjjj]

Generally speaking.. . She will not pronounce the verdict up front. This is not for drama purposes but for linear process in the verdict..

She will ( I am speaking generally here ) .. out line the body of the crime, the victim, the accused relationship /contact with the victim. She will go step by step, thru each witness, for the prosecution, and for the defence, and assign a weighting on the value , or probity of their evidence.. likewise, with expert witnesses for the P and the D. she will assign a confluence of the findings of the assessors.. their part in this is the assessors do FACTS, the judge does LAW.. she will apply the law to the facts.

She will adjudicate the testimony of the psychology area of the witnesses

She will out line her weighing up of the prosecution closing statement and the defence closing statement.

Then, the verdict..


The sentencing will take place most likely not at this same time.. submissions about sentencing after the verdict is handed down may take about a week. .submissions means a statement from possibly Reeva's mother, Oscar's family, his doctors, perhaps.. a submission from the prosecution office, perhaps... Oscar has been vocal about his beliefs, could be a submission from his pastor, if indeed he submits to one, which I doubt, etc..

She will deal with the little stuff first.. the ammo charge.. then the gunfiring charge , and probably pronounce a verdict on those before moving on to the murder charge.. I expect the sentencing for all charges will be given together after submissions taken.


again. in general terms..

But surely if she goes step by step then we'll know pretty early on which way she'll go I.e. The minute she calls OP a liar or something he said improbable from the outset, it'll be easy to guess the outcome

 

[james83]

You know one of the ways Psychiatrists spot a Narcissist?, they tend to think they are the one's who have been wronged, they can rationalize anything it is that they have done and act like they are the victim.

Anyone seen anybody acting like that recently?.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I think you're right there, but what I meant was should the bail have been reviewed and conditions put in place, along with the psychiatric referral.

Sorry, yes that makes absolute sense.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Good morning/ afternoon/ evening Gbtaketwo

I just wanted to pick up on your point which contains something that bothers me slightly, especially as I have heard it several times from different sources.

Namely, that following the Assessment, an understanding will be gained of OP's mindset at the time of the shooting. I am afraid that is not going to be possible as any issues (if diagnosed,) could have developed in the last 15 months.

What it will actually do is assess whether he currently has any issues. Why is this hugely significant? Because whether he has or not, the defence team are snookered. They cannot claim this affected his behaviour on the night, because it is impossible to tell when the symptoms began and crucially, if they wanted to use it they would have had to carry out tests at the time for it to be credible. Claiming it this late in the day would be a 'third defence' and would clearly smack of desperation.

If he has no issues as described by Vorster, then a pretty poor defence to begin with just falls into complete & utter disarray.

It is another delay but I sense that what we are seeing here is the State ensuring all bases are covered in ensuring the trial is fair, and avenues for appeal being blocked.

Just my humble opinion

I respect and accept your opinion and agree that they will be assessing his current circumstances to ensure he is fit to stand trial but I still feel they will be trying to assess whether it is possible he had any condition at the time of the shooting that would have made him more likely to over react when hearing a normal noise in his bathroom in the middle of the night . He has stressed several times how vulnerable he is on his stumps and is effectively claiming that he should be treated more leniently because of this .
It will be then down to the judge and her assessors to decide if there are mitigating circumstances to be taken into account assuming that they believe his intruder version of events .
If they believe he knew it was Reeva then they also have to have verification as to whether any condition could have affected his behaviour towards Reeva .
I agree it is looking like a 3rd defence but after Vorsters comments it needs covering. I think she even intimated that GAD could impact on how a potential breakup could affect him .
Just for the record my own opinion is he knew it was Reeva in the Toilet so I am not looking to excuse him but just hope that the doors are closed firmly in terms of an appeal being made .