Judge's Order re: OP's Mental Health Eval

[Fuskier]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/19/oscar-pistorius-blame-game-psychiatric-tests

Oscar Pistorius and the blame game
The psychiatric tests Pistorius is undergoing raise the question of how far our state of mind can absolve us of responsibility for our actions
by David Shariatmadari,The Guardian, Tuesday 20 May 2014.

"... The principle that an altered state of mind can excuse a crime is built into many legal systems. The cause could be drink, a brain tumour that distorts judgment, or an episode of mental illness. But as the empire of psychiatric diagnoses expands, taking in ever finer variations in personality, this will become much more difficult to navigate"...

 

[DebinGA]

1. to appreciate the wrongfulness of his or her conduct.
2. to act in accordance with that appreciation.

What does that mean exactly in this case?

 

[Cherwell]

I repeat, he said that screaming would be an involuntary act. If he says it's possible, I believe him.
Death is a process, not a sudden stopping of all functions. One wouldn't think that a chicken could run around after being decapitated, but it happens.

I agree with you, in most cases, death is a process. With no disrespect meant toward you, I would not compare Reeva's shooting to a chicken with its head cut off. That is a totally different animal in all senses. I am not a medical person, but a gun person.

Please do not misrepresent what I said. I did not "compare Reeva's shooting to a chicken with its head cut off".
I simply cited the latter as an example of something that many people believe is not possible. It was in reply to your comment that "saying that someone could scream after their hip was destroyed, their right arm was destroyed, and the back of their head was destroyed is quite incredible."

I cannot say that just because Dr. Saayman says a person could involuntarily scream after being mortally wounded three times in rapid succession, that I would believe him because he says so. I neither believe him nor disbelieve him. He says it is possible, not that it happened in this case. I do not know, and I didn't hear a succession of witnesses saying it is common for someone to scream after having their brains literally blown out. It is far easier to believe that Michelle Burger drastically wanted to "hear" something she did not hear, than to believe Reeva screamed loudly enough for Burger to hear her after the last shot.

As you will note from my earlier post, I was referring to Burger's claim of Reeva screaming after the last shot. She would have had to be in the toilet when Burger made THAT claim. That put all her testimony into question for me. That and her belligerent hostility. That was not an objective witness, nor a believable one.

Others have defended Ms Burger's testimony, so I won't repeat them. What I will say is that I understood what she was trying to describe. Not, as you keep presenting, someone commencing screaming after a mortal brain injury, but someone who was already screaming and continued to scream while she was hit, with her final scream dying away or fading out with the sound of the last shot.

 

[luvmygarden]

Maybe, but only if you have money, fame or power most likely. Not for ordinary folk. :tantrum:

Very true and include out on bail. For someone already in jail it is a change of pace. For OP it is a minor inconvenience. He still gets to sleep at his Uncles house and have great weekends to chill.

 

[Carmelita]

I thought the judge showed her hand just a teensy bit when she at first did not seem to understand at all why Nel wanted the evaluation. In the end, she agreed with Nel's reasoning, that the court needed the information before the trial could procceed.

But her questioning in the first place, IMO, was not about procedure, but about OP's mental hralth...i.e. she did not see a mental health issue in OP that would preclude a fair trial.

I think judge Masipa clarified her position about a mental health defense when she said although the defense did not plea an incapacitation defense due to mental illness or defect, the state believes that the defense presented an incapacitation defense due to mental illness or mental defect (due to doc Vorsters testimony) so the court must out of an abundance of caution have an independent evaluation done thus her words “Inquire into whether the accused by reason of mental illness or mental defect was at the time of the commission of the offense criminally responsible for the offenses charged whether he was capable of appreciating the wrongfulness of his act or of acting in accordance with an appreciation of the wrongfulness of his act.”

So the stage is set for an incapacitation defense or mitigating circumstances affirmation due to an extreme situation combining Oscar’s disability and whatever mental defect/illness the panel may find that Oscar may or may not have.

Very interesting.

 

[jilly]

That's is actually really funny.

(I'm not in the mood to laugh, though. I may not follow this case any longer. Was very interesting up until now. Had some good laughs, here, and lots of on intelligent conversation). IMO, in the end, he's going to get off with a very light sentence. It maked me ill. )

I feel the same way. When I read (here) 9am-3pm, that was bad enough but then when I saw 2 professors on the panel???? gmab!
I posted earlier that Her Ladyship was looking for help and wow....she just got it. There's no way Oscar is going to be dealt with in the same manner she has dealt with other men who have murdered their spouses.

As my Dad always said....money talks and BS walks.

 

[pandax81]

He also was screaming as he charged down the passage but then got quiet when he reached the bathroom because he "didn't want to give away his position."

He was thinking veryyyyyyy clearly that night.

Exactly right. Ironically, his thoughts and behaviour - which he carefully explained from detailed memory - now just aren't reckless enough to fit his latest defence.

Remember, he said he was convinced there was an intruder and feared for his life before he even went down the passageway. It's too convenient and against common sense for the uncontrollable fight reaction to only kick in exactly at the moment of shooting.

The judge needs just one expert opinion (and there are plenty more reasons and incidents to doubt the latest defence) to reasonably side with this view.

I think he has a similar tight-rope to walk in the psych evaluation now too - does he risk giving a history of being out of control and prone to 'fight' or does he stick to the 'reasoned and appropriate' story for any incidents under discussion?

 

[DebinGA]

Very true and include out on bail. For someone already in jail it is a change of pace. For OP it is a minor inconvenience. He still gets to sleep at his Uncles house and have great weekends to chill.

If OP were admitted and kept at the hospital 24/7, any resulting histrionics or hyper anxiety might be attributed to his confinement. As an out-patient who sleeps at home, he should be well-rested and coherent when tested and interviewed. That's good for the PT imo, as the same self-serving behaviors he exhibited on the stand will be on full display.

 

[turaj]

Very true and include out on bail. For someone already in jail it is a change of pace. For OP it is a minor inconvenience. He still gets to sleep at his Uncles house and have great weekends to chill.

yes weekends to chill...maybe at the luxury property Mozambique or one of Uncle Arnie's other places. Pretty much the same lifestyle he will have after his slap on the wrist when this is over. I appreciate all the careful analysis done by so many on the events of that evening...all the experts etc. but in the end...he goes on his merry privileged way just like his brother. To me in the courtroom they all have that very satisfied look like this is under control..."we've got this"

 

[Carmelita]

The State has accepted Oscar’s outpatient status; it appears from everything I have read this is highly unusual, perhaps “unprecedented” harking back to Minors very apt (paraphrasing here) there are no bright lines in the application of letter of law. Oscar’s outpatient status is important for another reason, in that I have to believe that Nel did not argue before the court that Oscar was a present danger or the onus of Oscar’s behavior while free would have been put squarely on the shoulders of the judge.

The specific circumstances of that AM are going to figure into the panels evaluation of Oscar’s state of mind so even though the judge did not state it specifically, not only is a mental health defense on the table so is a mitigating episodic mental health situation.

A judge has more power and autonomy than many people would like to believe.

 

[Carmelita]

I feel the same way. When I read (here) 9am-3pm, that was bad enough but then when I saw 2 professors on the panel???? gmab!
I posted earlier that Her Ladyship was looking for help and wow....she just got it. There's no way Oscar is going to be dealt with in the same manner she has dealt with other men who have murdered their spouses.

As my Dad always said....money talks and BS walks.

By the way I have been doing a bit of reading and the Pistorius wealth and power goes back 3 generations, wealth always buys advantage. I do believe that there is a good chance that the panel is going to be defense friendly and I have already stated that I believe the assessors are defense friendly.


JMO

 

[Cherwell]

yes weekends to chill...maybe at the luxury property Mozambique or one of Uncle Arnie's other places. Pretty much the same lifestyle he will have after his slap on the wrist when this is over. I appreciate all the careful analysis done by so many on the events of that evening...all the experts etc. but in the end...he goes on his merry privileged way just like his brother. To me in the courtroom they all have that very satisfied look like this is under control..."we've got this"

If this turns out to be the case, do you think that he will need permanent protection for the rest of his life? I could see people thinking that he needs to pay for what he has done.

 

[taagean]

Here is an interesting article from SA Journal of Psychiatry, especially the chart halfway down.

http://www.sajp.org.za/index.php/sajp/article/view/384/368


ETA: it may take a minute to load

 

[luvmygarden]

If this turns out to be the case, do you think that he will need permanent protection for the rest of his life? I could see people thinking that he needs to pay for what he has done.

That's OK they can have all the protection they want..But who will protect OP from himself. He is not going to change his real person. With all the fame and fortune some earned and some bestowed on him he has an evil side. Once he is free, if he is let to go free he will be same old Oscar. SCARY !

 

[Hope4More]

Good work, judge. She's protecting the process and the rights of the accused. No need to send him inpatient.....no suggestion that he is psychotic or has any form of mental illness that require him to be locked up as they evaluate.

IMO there is no chance OP will be diagnosed with a condition that prevented him from knowing the difference between right and wrong. So no complete pass. Any finding that OP has a condition that might have impeded his ability to act on that knowledge will be inherently subjective, and contested by Nel.

A finding that OP has a condition of some sort but that it doesn't meet the threshold of impairing his judgement or that he has no relevant mental defects would seem to be an insurmountable burden for the defense to overcome, given the core of the trial is OP's state of mind.

To those who think these 30 days are a gift to OP. Sure do disagree with that. OP is all about image, about the story of a disabled boy who had the inner strength and courage and heart to beat the odds to become not only whole, but an inspiration to others.

I see a man on trial struggling to keep that life story intact and losing. For his account of that night to be believable he must admit to or invent a weakness of crippling fear. Professing that fear has led to what I imagine is one of OP's worst nightmares....having his inner self probed and prodded, analyzed and discussed and then having the results broadcast around the world.

I bet that there is no chance he will be able to stop himself from showing rage during this evaluation, and I bet that his real feelings about Reeva, whatever they are, will be forced to the surface as well. Should be interesting.

 

[Zuri]

Please do not misrepresent what I said. I did not "compare Reeva's shooting to a chicken with its head cut off".
I simply cited the latter as an example of something that many people believe is not possible. It was in reply to your comment that "saying that someone could scream after their hip was destroyed, their right arm was destroyed, and the back of their head was destroyed is quite incredible."



Others have defended Ms Burger's testimony, so I won't repeat them. What I will say is that I understood what she was trying to describe. Not, as you keep presenting, someone commencing screaming after a mortal brain injury, but someone who was already screaming and continued to scream while she was hit, with her final scream dying away or fading out with the sound of the last shot.

About the screaming. It would make more sense anatomically and physiologically speaking, that Reeva was screaming while under threat. This gives credence to the bat being first, as I believe Reeva was in fear for her life. The gunshots, even with a pause, (and correct me if I am wrong) appear to come in rapid succession. Her autonomic nervous system (primal reflex) would have taken over which is responsible for the fight, flight or freeze response.

As Reeva's brain registered that she was being shot at, screaming first, then brain registering shock at the bullet strike to her hip, may have stopped screaming for an instant. This may account for why there was a pause as OP found his target and he might have thought he had eliminated the "threat".

I believe she started screaming again when the bullet missed, then another hitting her arm. I think she stopped screaming as soon as the bullet hit her brain, because there were no further shots. Without conscious brain function, you cannot perceive a threat, take a deeper breath and scream.

IIRC, Dr. Stipps testified that OP had his fingers in Reeva's mouth, presumably trying to maintain an airway. He said that Reeva was biting down on his fingers?which to me means she was decerebrate?. I have to go back and listen to be sure. Reeva may have been agonally breathing at that point.

I am haunted by the testimony of those that heard her screaming. I do not for one minute believe it was OP screaming. JMV

 

[Hope4More]

I feel the same way. When I read (here) 9am-3pm, that was bad enough but then when I saw 2 professors on the panel???? gmab!
I posted earlier that Her Ladyship was looking for help and wow....she just got it. There's no way Oscar is going to be dealt with in the same manner she has dealt with other men who have murdered their spouses.

As my Dad always said....money talks and BS walks.

Can't argue about the power of money....in general, anyway. Personally I have all the confidence in the world that this judge will get it right. Are you aware of her history? She's walked the walk for seeking justice. She has demonstrated over a lifetime that she is a person of utmost integrity and tremendous inner strength and courage, and that she is quite able and willing to stand up to money and power.

Her story of overcoming the disability she was born into...being an intelligent strong black women forced to live in an apartheid nightmare....is the real thing.

If she finds OP guilty of murder I will accept her verdict as just and fair.

 

[Gryffindor]

Hi Carmelita. Lovely to see you. You've been missed. As have your eloquent posts :-D x

 

[Carmelita]

I think he will be able to control his rage, he is facing the known with the evaluation; ethically speaking they cannot try to enrage him. I think he will present as unstable emotionally, I don’t know what else will be determined during the evaluation but I do believe it is more likely than not that he will be diagnosed with something. I believe Oscar is emotionally unstable and that he manages his emotions by a rigorous set of controls he has honed over the years through will, practice and his mental training that allows him to have a hyper sense of control when it comes to his sprinting.

That said when he is faced with an unfamiliar agitating or anxiety producing situation he is overcome with his emotions. I can’t remember what race it was, but it was a world class one, there were 4 false starts and by the time the start gun was fired the fifth time Oscar was in such a heightened state of anxiety that it took him 1.8 seconds to leave the starting blocks. He still won the race. I think that anxiety mixed with his peculiar inner ability to control it under most circumstances and the psychological stress that such a scenario necessarily implies is going to be brought to the forefront. JMO.

IMO Oscar’s previous overreactions to noises in his house are going to go a long way in the evaluation of his state of mind during the events of the AM when Reeva was killed. I believe his heightened anxiety is obvious but that is JMO. Heightened anxiety in and of itself is obviously not going to meet a mental health defense but what the panel will find in the recesses of Oscar’s mind and what they will determine from those findings coupled with Oscar’s history of behavior and his deformity is anybody’s guess.

 

[Zuri]

If this turns out to be the case, do you think that he will need permanent protection for the rest of his life? I could see people thinking that he needs to pay for what he has done.

I wonder if he will leave SA and live in the UK or Europe if acquitted. If convicted, does he remain free on bail while appealing his conviction?