Kiomarie and other issues

[Brini]

I know, right? I'm starting to wonder if I'm educated enough to post in this thread!!

You read my mind, Lin!


HEY! If you folks are passing a bottle around, pass it on over here!

You guys are TOO freakin' brilliant, on this thread!

It's embarassing to we of the merely normal IQ. ;-)

(I will now return to my role as class clown). ;-)

 

[countzero]

Once again NO ONE here thought KMTC was an accomplice or the murderer. We were simply interested in how her LE interview contained contradictory information and wanted to examine that interview in light of what we know today.

I don't understand why that is a problem with anyone. There is nothing wrong with reconsidering what each witness has told LE and even the press in light of what we now know. Realisitically, KMTC's LE interview as well as her National Enquirer interview will be examined for years to come in various books about this case.

bbm:

After reading the posts in this specific thread, I came to my opinion, mine only, that many were attempting to place Kio as a possible accomplice. Which I thought was rather strange since we hashed out every possible SODDI with or without accomplices in other threads. Also I took into consideration, that there are many new posters who either didn't know about the SODDI thread or did but didn't want to take hours to read it.

So what if Kio had contradictory statements as you and others interpreted them. I didn't. And I have to giggle at any reference made to the National Enquirer as being anything but a tabloid paper. And I am being polite in my description of it.

Like we did in the SODDI thread, we attempted to use the facts released by LE/FBI/SA to make them fit into a SODDI. Nothing, but nothing fit. And again, Kio wasn't even included into any theory we tossed about IIRC. Now all of a sudden, because there hasn't been a doc dump of substance, Kio has been in the forefront because she happen to know KC and backtracked on a few of her initial statements to LE about what she knew or didn't know.

Goodness knows a hefty document dump is needed now to pull the Kio interest on the backburner. By the way, I disagree with your last statement. Kio won't be but a few lines if that in future references to this case.

Reconsidering the facts of every interview and statement made by people is ok. Interpretations change when or if other evidence comes to light. Forcing an interpretation to fit an individuals opinion is wrong. We learned that lesson in past threads, especially the SODDI.

 

[seagull65]

OT,but that is the cutest child in your avitar!
Why would LE have to take the dogs to anyone elses home when they HIT several times in the Anthony's yard? That's where Caylee was.
And how are they supposed to find anyone else involved when the child's mother says she left her with an imaginary person at an empty apt?
All roads lead to KC. Things found at remains site were from the A's house.Who else could have taken that stuff without CA noticing?CA covered up the fact the blanket was missing until Caylee was found and LE had a search warrant.Why would she do that unless she knew KC was involved?
IMO the only other people that could possibly be involved would be someone in that home. The list pointing to KC is too long to be anyone else,IMO.
Is there any evidence that it could be someone else?

thank you, MissJames, that's my little boy. I think that was taken soon after his dad got home from Iraq, playing with his dad's desert helmet. (He was 2 1/2 or 3 in that picture, but he's a big 7 year old now )

I don't want to get off the thread topic here (KMTC statements), but in answer to your questions I would say that I agree that the evidence gathered in LE's investigation obviously brings great suspicion on Casey, rightly so, but that IMO others were also not ruled out.

That's why it's still not a "closed case" to me. I'm interested in all the information that can be found. I still don't know with any certainty that Casey is the one who harmed Caylee. She could have been an accessory after the fact, or maybe not even that. [/B]If I were LE, regardless what Casey said or didn't say (sometimes a witness suffers from mental illness or other disorder, or has been threatened or blackmailed not to inform), I would have investigated all the people who had been around Caylee, even anyone who was known to have been in the area of the A home and TL's apartment. Why would they not investigate these people and take tracking and cadaver dogs to their yards, vehicles, etc., why take their statements at face value? I think because they thought (which was a reasonable thought) that if they just kept the pressure on Casey, she would be able to tell them everything. But maybe she couldn't. Maybe she didn't even know everything. I do think it's very possible that she knew something that she was covering up, but I don't know if she knew everything. I remember one young man who was interviewed by the media early in the case said to reporters that he went to the same high school as Casey and that "everyone who went to our school knows you don't tell the police anything." Maybe Casey also thought this way.

Casey wasn't the only one with access to her car or items in her home. She had a boyfriend and at least one other friend over to her home during the timeframe in question, and many people were in the family home after Casey's arrest. Items from the A home could also have been in Casey's car. The perp could have obtained items from either the home or potentially the car. Casey could also have had these items with her wherever she was staying.

There were also two attempted kidnappings in the area, in which a man took two little girls from their beds, in one of the cases he duct taped the little girl's mouth, took a pair of her shorts from her dresser and a blanket from her bed, took the child into the garage, etc, before she managed to untape her mouth, scream, etc. I can't rule out a stranger abduction like this. The defendant in these two cases was found by LE lurking around people's back yards. Remember the gate being found open at the A backyard?) I actually didn't hear about this guy until very recently when I heard about it through Princess Rose (thanks PR!) but I had always wondered about the possibility of a stranger, service person in the area, neighbor, whatever, at either the A home or TL's or wherever.

http://www.wftv.com/news/19489838/detail.html
http://www.wftv.com/news/20361829/detail.html

I also never ruled out anyone within Casey's extended circle who was anywhere around Caylee.

Why wouldn't Casey report the disappearance immediately? I don't know, some possibilities might be: if she's crazy, if she couldn't face her family and tell them "I lost Caylee and don't know where she is?". If she thought at first that her family had taken Caylee from her, or that someone else she knew had taken Caylee for some reason that she didn't want to tell her family or LE, and didn't realize her family or that other person didn't have Caylee until it was way too late and then she didn't know what to tell her family or police? Maybe she thought family or some associate of hers had Caylee until a smell in her car led her to finding Caylee's body in the trunk? Then she thought someone she knew had killed Caylee and didn't know what to do? I have no idea.

Or, what if a boyfriend or friend harmed Caylee, or Casey thought they had, and she stupidly and wrongly wouldn't tell her family or LE this, or what if that person threatened or blackmailed her not to tell? What if she made up her story about ZG either because she's delusional or because she thought she was protecting someone else? Maybe she actually thought someone by the name ZG actually did have Caylee, either because that was the last person she saw around Caylee or because someone told her that was who last had her? Or maybe she was actually hinting at another person or name to her family that she really thought had Caylee? I have no idea. These remain questions because they mostly were never investigated, also obviously because of Casey's lack of cooperation or lack of information.

Why would Cindy not mention the missing Pooh blanket until the remains were found? Maybe the blanket had often been taken by Casey before wherever she went with Caylee? Maybe Cindy was assuming or hoping the blanket was with Caylee at "the nanny's" --still hoping what Casey said was true and that Caylee was alive somewhere with some friend/nanny of Casey's? Or because she feared Casey could be involved in some crime (whether she feared Casey or some other family member had been an accessory after the fact or whatever) and didn't want to say anything about items missing from the house for fear of implicating them? I have no idea.

There are many questions I hope will be answered at trial, even specific pieces of evidence we know about but which have not appeared in discovery that I'd like to see at trial before I could consider people "ruled out". (I don't want to mention specific items of evidence here because I wouldn't want to encourage anyone to throw something away if they haven't already, though I'm sure they would have by now if these items would incriminate them.)

KMTC's phone records are just one example of evidence I hope we see at trial to answer some questions! Wouldn't it be great if the phone records led LE to the missing blackjack, for example, well maybe not to the lost or trashed phone itself but to the records for that phone.

 

[seagull65]

The way KMTC changed her story to LE is obviously important in the case, as all witness statements are. One major reason it's important is because the change in her statement is about the date Caylee was last heard alive.

It's obvious to me that Kio knew which Casey she was speaking with during the phone call, she wouldn't confuse the "two" Caseys. She told her neighbor that it was Casey A who called, and went so far as to call LE and tell them it was Casey A who had called. She said she heard Caylee in the background in the July 9th call. She said Casey referenced on the phone how they had run into each other in April at Walmart. She knows very well that Casey A's mother doesn't live out of state (another good point Princess Rose), so if the Casey on the phone had been discussing going to live with her mother out of state as Kio later claimed, Kio would have known that it wasn't Casey A on the phone.

So IMO, either Casey A did call on July 9 and Caylee was alive then,

or, KMTC had originally made up this story for some reason. What it is, I can only guess, but hopefully we'll see the phone record at trial to see what phone that really was that called KMT, and in turn the records for that phone.

 

[lin]

The way KMTC changed her story to LE is obviously important in the case, as all witness statements are. One major reason it's important is because the change in her statement is about the date Caylee was last heard alive. (

It's obvious to me that Kio wouldn't be confused as to which Casey she was speaking with during the phone call. She told her neighbor that it was Casey A who called, and went so far as to call LE and tell them it was Casey A who had called. She said she heard Caylee in the background in the July 9th call. She said Casey referenced on the phone how they had run into each other in April at Walmart. She knows very well that Casey A's mother doesn't live out of state (another good point Princess Rose), so if the Casey on the phone had been discussing going to live with her mother out of state as Kio later claimed, Kio would have known that it wasn't Casey A on the phone.

So IMO, either Casey A did call on July 9 and Caylee was alive then,

or, KMTC had originally made up this story for some reason. What it is, I can only guess, but hopefully we'll see the phone record at trial to see what phone that really was that called KMT, and in turn the records for that phone.

What information do you have that apparently LE doesn't that indicates this change is "important in the case"? Do you have any evidence that Kio wasn't just mistaken, as she claimed and as was apparently accepted by LE? Do you have any evidence that the call was actually between KC and Kio, instead of CaseyW. and Kio or that any such call actually occurred at all?

 

[lin]

The way KMTC changed her story to LE is obviously important in the case, as all witness statements are. One major reason it's important is because the change in her statement is about the date Caylee was last heard alive.

It's obvious to me that Kio knew which Casey she was speaking with during the phone call, she wouldn't confuse the "two" Caseys. She told her neighbor that it was Casey A who called, and went so far as to call LE and tell them it was Casey A who had called. She said she heard Caylee in the background in the July 9th call. She said Casey referenced on the phone how they had run into each other in April at Walmart. She knows very well that Casey A's mother doesn't live out of state (another good point Princess Rose), so if the Casey on the phone had been discussing going to live with her mother out of state as Kio later claimed, Kio would have known that it wasn't Casey A on the phone.

So IMO, either Casey A did call on July 9 and Caylee was alive then,

or, KMTC had originally made up this story for some reason. What it is, I can only guess, but hopefully we'll see the phone record at trial to see what phone that really was that called KMT, and in turn the records for that phone.

I wanted to reply separately with this question so it didn't get lost:

Do you have any evidence to contradict the experts who have opined Caylee was deceased shortly after she was last seen alive or do you read their reports as inclusive of the July 9th date? If so, please link to the part(s) that support this assertion so that we may properly discuss with informed opinions. TIA

 

[Spangle]

Seagull65,
Even KC isn't saying anyone else but the Nanny took her.

 

[seagull65]

What information do you have that apparently LE doesn't that indicates this change is "important in the case"? Do you have any evidence that Kio wasn't just mistaken, as she claimed and as was apparently accepted by LE? Do you have any evidence that the call was actually between KC and Kio, instead of CaseyW. and Kio or that any such call actually occurred at all?

These are just questions in furtherance of the discussion of Kio's statements to LE and aren't meant to be rude. But for these issues to be discussed intelligently, I think we need to have the same info on which you're basing your assertions, don't you agree? Otherwise, seems like random speculation at the expense of an innocent young girl who appears misguided, at worst, imo.

:waitasec: All witness statements are important in the case, especially when a witness changes his/her story about the last date the victim was alive.

Some of the reasons it's very hard to believe Kio could have been confused as to which Casey it was on the phone are listed just a post or two above. For the others, consult this thread.

The evidence will be KMTC's phone records, and the details of the phone that the call to KMTC was placed on.

 

[seagull65]

I wanted to reply separately with this question so it didn't get lost:

Do you have any evidence to contradict the experts who have opined Caylee was deceased shortly after she was last seen alive or do you read their reports as inclusive of the July 9th date? If so, please link to the part(s) that support this assertion so that we may properly discuss with informed opinions. TIA

:waitasec:

Once again, we've been discussing on this thread how we feel it will be important for this phone evidence to be presented at trial, evidence which has not come out yet in discovery or at least not yet released to the public through the sunshine law.

 

[Spangle]

Seagull,

We will see the phone records before trial.... Or we will not see them at all. ~ Sunshine law.

Even if LE didn't ask for the phone records, JB could. But he hasn't. He would want them early enough do do the sort of investigation your talking about.

Finding the Blackberry (sp) and proving it was real, would really, really help the defense. So even if Kio wasn't involved, if her phone records could prove there was another phone.. JB would be all over that. He really needs to prove that KC didn't lie about everythingshe talked about. Besides her name,etc.

 

[seagull65]

Seagull65,
Even KC isn't saying anyone else but the Nanny took her.

Yes, Spangle, we also have lots of threads discussing Casey's statements and other witness statements.

 

[Spangle]

:waitasec: All witness statements are important in the case, especially when a witness changes his/her story about the last date the victim was alive.

Some of the reasons it's very hard to believe Kio could have been confused as to which Casey it was on the phone are listed just a post or two above. For the others, consult this thread.

The evidence will be KMTC's phone records, and the details of the phone that the call to KMTC was placed on.

If there is evidence that KC called from the missing BB to KMTC 's phone by using KMTC's phone records.. then JB would be demanding those records.

 

[Spangle]

Yes, Spangle, we also have lots of threads discussing Casey's statements and other witness statements.

ah, wasn't talking about what the witness statements said. Was talking about the theory that someone came and snatched the child from her bed and the mommy was to embarrassed to tell anyone.. that was in NO witness statements,etc.

As I was pointing out.. even KC wasn't saying that. She is saying it wasn't a stranger. It wasn't from her bed. But someone known, and was handed over to her.

 

[seagull65]

But for these issues to be discussed intelligently, I think we need to have the same info on which you're basing your assertions, don't you agree? Otherwise, seems like random speculation at the expense of an innocent young girl who appears misguided, at worst, imo.

You still seem confused about what my assertions are. Again, I can only refer you back to this thread.

There has certainly been a lot of random speculation and accusations posted on this board at the expense of various parties who may be innocent, but not by me.

What I've been discussing here is this witness's official (public) statements to LE regarding the last date the victim was heard alive. I have never made any accusation toward this witness or any other witness in this case.

 

[Brini]

thank you, MissJames, that's my little boy. I think that was taken soon after his dad got home from Iraq, playing with his dad's desert helmet. (He was 2 1/2 or 3 in that picture, but he's a big 7 year old now )

I don't want to get off the thread topic here (KMTC statements), but in answer to your questions I would say that I agree that the evidence gathered in LE's investigation obviously brings great suspicion on Casey, rightly so, but that IMO others were also not ruled out.

That's why it's still not a "closed case" to me. I'm interested in all the information that can be found. I still don't know with any certainty that Casey is the one who harmed Caylee. She could have been an accessory after the fact, or maybe not even that. [/B]If I were LE, regardless what Casey said or didn't say (sometimes a witness suffers from mental illness or other disorder, or has been threatened or blackmailed not to inform), I would have investigated all the people who had been around Caylee, even anyone who was known to have been in the area of the A home and TL's apartment. Why would they not investigate these people and take tracking and cadaver dogs to their yards, vehicles, etc., why take their statements at face value? I think because they thought (which was a reasonable thought) that if they just kept the pressure on Casey, she would be able to tell them everything. But maybe she couldn't. Maybe she didn't even know everything. I do think it's very possible that she knew something that she was covering up, but I don't know if she knew everything. I remember one young man who was interviewed by the media early in the case said to reporters that he went to the same high school as Casey and that "everyone who went to our school knows you don't tell the police anything." Maybe Casey also thought this way.

Casey wasn't the only one with access to her car or items in her home. She had a boyfriend and at least one other friend over to her home during the timeframe in question, and many people were in the family home after Casey's arrest. Items from the A home could also have been in Casey's car. The perp could have obtained items from either the home or potentially the car. Casey could also have had these items with her wherever she was staying.

There were also two attempted kidnappings in the area, in which a man took two little girls from their beds, in one of the cases he duct taped the little girl's mouth, took a pair of her shorts from her dresser and a blanket from her bed, took the child into the garage, etc, before she managed to untape her mouth, scream, etc. I can't rule out a stranger abduction like this. The defendant in these two cases was found by LE lurking around people's back yards. Remember the gate being found open at the A backyard?) I actually didn't hear about this guy until very recently when I heard about it through Princess Rose (thanks PR!) but I had always wondered about the possibility of a stranger, service person in the area, neighbor, whatever, at either the A home or TL's or wherever.

http://www.wftv.com/news/19489838/detail.html
http://www.wftv.com/news/20361829/detail.html

I also never ruled out anyone within Casey's extended circle who was anywhere around Caylee.

Why wouldn't Casey report the disappearance immediately? I don't know, some possibilities might be: if she's crazy, if she couldn't face her family and tell them "I lost Caylee and don't know where she is?". If she thought at first that her family had taken Caylee from her, or that someone else she knew had taken Caylee for some reason that she didn't want to tell her family or LE, and didn't realize her family or that other person didn't have Caylee until it was way too late and then she didn't know what to tell her family or police? Maybe she thought family or some associate of hers had Caylee until a smell in her car led her to finding Caylee's body in the trunk? Then she thought someone she knew had killed Caylee and didn't know what to do? I have no idea. [/B]

Repectfully snipped for brevity.

1) For starters, SG, KC isn't delusional. She was found fully competant to assist in her own defense by two shrinks. She was also released home twice, without any psychotropic medication.

2) there is no evidence, whatever, of KC being afraid of anyone, or threatened by anyone. LE, remember, has all of her messages, from any source, for that period. She certainly wasn't too frightened to party. She even wanted the trial at in a specific city so that she could go to the beach, when she "is acquitted." (paraphrased).

Even if she HAD been threatened, most parents put their children's lives and well-being FAR above personal threat, in their priorities.

3) As to blackmail? Even if KC was capable of feeling shame, what is more shameful than being found guilty of murdering one's daughter? And, again, no parent would prioritize any blackmaiol issue over the child's life.

4) Giving hints, or clues? Not happening. If she wanted to expose the "real killer" she could simply open her mouth. She was able to call LE when she wanted the demonstrators gone. She has "blathered" a few self-contradictory "clues." But she never said anything that was material to finding Caylee.

5) "Not knowing how to tell LE or her parents?" Even five-year olds can often do that. Also, she tried to implicate a non-existent person, and the innocent JG. That would seem to rule out any reason for not telling, except self interest. It would also rule out the neighborhood perv.

6) Lets' say she passed out drunk, and when she woke, the baby was gone. She could tell LE where she was, and with whom. If KC was capable of embarrassment, she might be embarrassed. But, again, being in jail for murder is much worse.

7) Why wasn't everybody in her social circle investigated, including K9 searches? Everybody WAS investigated. A number of people took polygraphs, and released their personal records to LE. TL agreed to have his home searched, and turned over his records.

Did everyone whom SP ever knew have THEIR homes searched and sniffed? LE would have done that IF there had been evidence of anyone else's involvement. There wasn't, and there isn't.

It's OK if you don't believe the evidence. But, most of us have seen MORE than enough to convince us.

Thanks!

 

[seagull65]

If there is evidence that KC called from the missing BB to KMTC 's phone by using KMTC's phone records.. then JB would be demanding those records.

Yes, surely he will be asking for those records.

 

[The Eunice Burns]

Yes, surely he will be asking for those records.

Perhaps. But hasn't he already "shot the moon" w/ the latest round of defense motions? Seems to me they are going for LE misconduct and evidence tampering. Of course, he does seem to do things *advertiser censored** backward, so maybe a motion for Kio's phone records is forthcoming. But I doubt it. I think AL probably staked her bet on what we saw in these latest motions.

 

[lin]

:waitasec: All witness statements are important in the case, especially when a witness changes his/her story about the last date the victim was alive.

Some of the reasons it's very hard to believe Kio could have been confused as to which Casey it was on the phone are listed just a post or two above. For the others, consult this thread.

The evidence will be KMTC's phone records, and the details of the phone that the call to KMTC was placed on.

Thank you for sharing your opinion that when any witness changes any part of their statement that it's important. It's an opinion I do not share and from all evidence of which I'm aware, one not shared by the professionals on this case. JG made a similar mistake and the explanation was similarly accepted by the professional investigators.

I've read every post on the thread but still don't understand why this particular witness, a very minor, minor part of this story that is very unlikely to testify and who by all credible accounts of which I'm aware thusfar has absolutely ZERO direct knowledge of the crime is even considered a "witness" much less an important witness. More to the point, I haven't seen a whit of proof or even a logical speculative theory presented that outweighs the determination of the professionals who investigated the case. Are you aware of any?

Please do not be offended by my questions or requests to provide support for your assertions. I'd just like for us all to be working from the same information pool. Perhaps then we'll be able to sleuth the information as the WS team that we are rather than seeming at cross purposes on this thread with a few apparently seeking in depth analysis of what some others feel may just be dragging an another innocent through manufactured mud.

 

[lin]

:waitasec: All witness statements are important in the case, especially when a witness changes his/her story about the last date the victim was alive.

Some of the reasons it's very hard to believe Kio could have been confused as to which Casey it was on the phone are listed just a post or two above. For the others, consult this thread.

The evidence will be KMTC's phone records, and the details of the phone that the call to KMTC was placed on.

Ooops, almost forgot: When and if Kio's phone records are released, I'll be happy to help you sleuth them. In the meantime, I don't think we can use our speculation as to their content to support any pet theories any of us may have; jmo.

 

[lin]

:waitasec:

Once again, we've been discussing on this thread how we feel it will be important for this phone evidence to be presented at trial, evidence which has not come out yet in discovery or at least not yet released to the public through the sunshine law.

What do you expect this phone evidence to show that would be so important that it would used at trial? Do you believe ping records and everything have been requested? I haven't really seen a whole lot of other posters speculate that Kio would even be called to testify; at least not in this thread. Is that discussion in another thread?