Kyron's Fate ***POLL***

[Blondie in Spokane]

sbm...

blondie - i pm'ed you info about your norton. i hope you don't mind. jade.

Thanks a bunch, Jade...you guys are great!

 

[GrainneDhu]

Thank you for this. Very good point here. Like I said, I'm not sure it's actually a container, but I see him buried in something, or something that is container like. And maybe the cadaver dogs haven't been near it yet. I've often wondered if Sauvie Island was meant as a false lead and not the actual place he was buried. Unfortunately, my feelings are very vague, so you could be right. I just can't get past the feeling of him being "whole" somewhere, and the image of a lid or door lifting and dirt falling in. I could be completely off, and I wish what I felt was more definite, ugh. But I hadn't considered your point at all before this post. So who knows.

I have a feeling that if Kyron is dead, he is niot within the five mile radius of Skyline School that was intensively searched.

The problem with expanding the search is the way the area increases. That original search with a 5 mile radius covered close to 80 square miles; a search with a radius of 10 miles includes 314 square miles.

I'm intrigued by someone's suggestion (can't remember who, I'm sorry!) that he may have been placed in an abandoned cemetary.

My only hope if he has been buried is the knowledge that digging a standard six foot deep grave is an amazingly difficult task to do without heavy machinery.

 

[CN2Souls]

OTHER....

The News media along with KH and DY have been orchestrated by LE to make us believe a "in a way of thinking" that would protect Kyron and what truly has happened, until LE can find him and bring him home safely

and we the :lamb: have followed along nicely. .

 

[Kat010]

SBM; Trigger warning: graphic details following

It is incredibly difficult to seal up a container so tight that dogs can't get any scent from it. Welding a steel barrel might do it but not always (drug smugglers have tried it unsuccessfully).

Containers that have cadavers in them are particularly difficult to seal up because the process of decomposition generates gasses which exert a tremendous amount of pressure if sealed into a container.

Mostly, though, I look at all the ways drug smugglers have tried to beat drug sniffing dogs and failed. Then I think about a woman with, I assume, average suburban mother skills and a very tight time schedule and I honestly don't think she would have time to effectively seal such a container.

You beat me to it! Drug runners and dealers put drugs in sealed plastic wrap, then sometimes in tin foil, then in containers, then sometimes hidden behind fake panels in trucks (which are smelly in themselves). And sometimes they sprinkle other substances around that they think will deter a dog--like pepper, etc.

Doesn't work with a good dog.

Ditto on cadavers. GrainneDhu is right on the (tactfully-presented) details. Also, dogs don't necessarily get scent by being close to something. It depends on the dog, the training, etc. For example: many dogs tend to be either ground-sniffers or air scenters. Both equally good, and it doesn't mean that the dogs can't and won't do both.

But its kinda like humans and handed-ness: one is natural and stronger. My German Shepherd now is an incredible tracker via ground scents. That nose is right on the track. Air scenters will use ground, but then they sniff the air--many point noses up.

Cadaver dogs--including those used in water settings--are searching for the millions of invisible scent particles out there in the air. A German Shepherd has, I believe, something like 7 million scent receptors in its nose.

Now add in windage--direction, intensity--and other elements, and you'll see what marvels these dogs are, whether they're searching wreckage to find survivors, tracking criminals, looking for drugs, or looking for cadavers.

A good cadaver dog can find a body on the bottom of a deep lake even if it's wrapped in something.

A personal anecdote--since I see several of us have been sharing them. After the dog I provided (gave)to the police department was poisoned by a drug dealer, they went to Germany to buy a replacement. Not long after he got to the U.S. his handler (one of my best friends, who had put my dog on the force as the town's first K9 and first drug dog) and family went to a national forest for relaxation and bonding time with the dog.

Snap! The German handler had sent him with a collar and a lead that was frayed. The dog, who'd been through that loooong flight, took off. My friend couldn't find him. It hit the media (even nationally) and he hollered for help, discreetly. The SWAT team had been out searching, etc.

So I grabbed a friend and also a dog in season and went up. Sure enough, the dog tracked us--he was so good that once I "felt" him and I whirled to find new pawprints a few steps behind us but no dog in sight. (He was brilliant, and later became a stand-out and a very good friend. I later helped with some tracking exercises, laying trails.)

But when I got there, the SWAT guys, bored, had taken to target practice. First thing I did after carrying on for awhile was to tell them to stop that as it would not make the dog want to come in. And also to put away all weapons and holsters--the dog knew the scent of holsters, gunpowder, weapons and we wanted him relaxed, not wired. They grumbled around but did as I said. That settled the environment down so that I could deploy the girl in season (on a lead with 2 of us0 and also look things over.

Before long, I knew I wasn't going to get a chance to lay hands on him. So after looking things over, learning about someone in the area who'd seen him, etc. I basically told my friend what to do, precisely, and he did it. It involved having the German trainer and handler send over, wrapped in plastic, a very smelly work jacket with his scent. (GS's, BTW are near sighted and they'll identify by scent first).

I told him what to tell the guy in the area to do, which involved putting food and water out for a couple of days. Then early one morning, he was to put that jacket on and step out at "feeding" time.

Bingo! That dog got the scent from the jacket, and ran to him, almost leaped into his arms. The guy hugged him, grabbed his collar, and put a lead on him, said good dog (we taught him how to say that and otehr things in German) and called my friend to come get his dog.

Scent did the trick. The scent of the female in season brought him close to me and I could figure out, by walking trails and the woods, his approximate "range" and find old tracks, etc. Then we found someone to help and got the jacket--which, BTW, cost a fortune to fly over on overnight status, but it was worth it. Dog went on to a very long, happy, and successful career--and I loved him dearly, too.

Never ever bet against a good, or great dog, when it comes to scent.

 

[Oriah]

Hmmm. I don't know how I feel about this, truly.

On the one hand, I agree that it seems impossible with the search effort expended for Kyron, that he is in the area of the search grids already cleared.

On the other hand, it is not hugely uncommon for a search dog or SAR to miss something in a grid search area similar to those around Skyline or other areas where in Kyrons case SAR has been directed.
The area is just tough; and while I absolutely agree (never bet against a great dog- ) I just don't know. For every yard of a grid like this, you have to add 9...just for the elevated, buried, and sideward aspect.

I still -despite the odds- think the most likely situation is that Kyron is within several miles of Skyline.

I very much hope to be wrong about that.

 

[digitaldisciple]

While I realize this sounds horrible and I hate to mention this, but TH had a friend who was involved in landscaping. These folks have access to things that can make bodies disappear, like machinery and substances that can hasten the breakdown of a body.
Knowing this makes me really think that it's quite possible a body may never be found.

 

[just]

While I realize this sounds horrible and I hate to mention this, but TH had a friend who was involved in landscaping. These folks have access to things that can make bodies disappear, like machinery and substances that can hasten the breakdown of a body.
Knowing this makes me really think that it's quite possible a body may never be found.

Add to this that landscapers have shovels, bags, trucks and know the area, not good. But I still can't wrap my brain around DDS helping TH murder a little boy -- at least not with her knowledge she's helping. However, from the People article where she says TH has nothing to do with it - that's just nonsense with all the other info - the MFH, failed polygraphs, no public statements, not fighting for the baby, sexting - so then I think DDS may have indeed helped but if not for some twisted love thing, why?

I wonder if there have been more searches in Forest Park with dogs for a wider area? Anyone know?

And I like the theory here of OTHER that we're all being manipulated so Kyron can be found and freed - wouldn't that be great.

 

[froginTtown]

I voted that Kyron was abducted by Terri, or someone, from school and in an unknown place... I have felt this from the start and I still feel this way today..!! She knew the divorce was coming.... I think she fooled some prominent people into believing they were helping Kyron into a better situation... They can't talk now because they will loose their livelyhoods, etc.. LE are asking questions about someone in the truck, where DeDe was and etc. If I were to kill a child, I would not involve others.. and if I can't imagine helping someone do it either...!!!

 

[Calliope]

Add to this that landscapers have shovels, bags, trucks and know the area, not good. But I still can't wrap my brain around DDS helping TH murder a little boy -- at least not with her knowledge she's helping. However, from the People article where she says TH has nothing to do with it - that's just nonsense with all the other info - the MFH, failed polygraphs, no public statements, not fighting for the baby, sexting - so then I think DDS may have indeed helped but if not for some twisted love thing, why?

I wonder if there have been more searches in Forest Park with dogs for a wider area? Anyone know?

And I like the theory here of OTHER that we're all being manipulated so Kyron can be found and freed - wouldn't that be great.

DeDe isn't a landscaper.

 

[passionflower]

I am beginning to think it was a well planned action by TH withthe help of a few others.
Then the plan turned badly, spiraled downward, things happened and Kyron is deceased now. Only a few know and won't, can't tell because they will go to prison.
JMOO

 

[LindseyLou]

My scenario, in which I believe Kyron is dead:

Terri planned this scheme, and enlisted people to help her but lied to them what they helped her with. They probably thought he was being handed off to someone else for his safety, but that's not what eventually happened. Or, she just needed someone to watch the baby at different times, and they had no idea what else was going on.

She knew the school would be busy that day. She probably even knew about the guy cutting the soccer field grass too. She came up with the doctor's appointment and made confusion at the school to place the blame on them. She lured Kyron out of that school and into the truck where no one could see him or wonder what was going on. I think she gave him a treat that drugged him, and then she hid him under a blanket in the back seat so no one could see him in her truck.

Then, she went about getting her alibi by running through Starbucks at one location and talking to someone she knew from the gym, plus the other store. I think after that she killed him by choking him, or just simply smothering him. Either way, it wasn't messy, and she buried him at a pre-planned place. She covered this, she thought, by driving around on backroads after burying Kyron just so she could say that she was driving around for the achy baby. She thought the school and some local perp would get the blame, and she'd be the sympathetic stepmother and wouldn't even be looked at.

Only she knows where Kyron is, and is probably not going to tell. Hopefully, those she lied to are starting to put the pieces together and realize what really happened. If they are still believing her, that means it'll be even longer until Kyron is found.

I do think he was buried in some sort of container, or in one of those abandoned basements or something like that. I do think there's a good chance of him being found without Terri's help, but it just might take longer to find him.

I do believe this was a one woman crime by someone who knew she could manipulate people, with lies, into helping her. I don't think she planned this out with a gang of people.

Wow. Thanks was not enough for that eye opening post. I've always tried to stay positive and hope he's alive out there somewhere, but in the back of my head I keep thinking she hid him somewhere and its just a matter of finding that "needle in a haystack" place she buried or hid his body. I keep thinking that maybe she knew of a place that would be perfect to hide a body and I just hope someone stumbles upon it sooner than later.

 

[cluciano63]

I really thought that Kyron's birthday would bring some sort of movement in the case; either Kyron being "reappeared" or LE making an arrest or naming a suspect or at least calling a press conference to ask for more information, instead of the day simply passing by, marked only by memories of Kyron. Now it seems even less likely to me that Kyron could be alive; even Terri, if she has done this and kept Kyron alive somehow, might have given in to pressure and had him "released" if it was possible.

I wonder if Desiree's confidence will waver now, if she was thinking the same thing. How can she believe, on one hand, that Terri would do this, and on the other hand, that Kyron is alive and just being hidden? At what point will the parents begin to feel that the investigation is not going great?

When is the next milestone that might bring about hope that Kyron might be returned?

 

[LindseyLou]

Thank you for this. Very good point here. Like I said, I'm not sure it's actually a container, but I see him buried in something, or something that is container like. And maybe the cadaver dogs haven't been near it yet. I've often wondered if Sauvie Island was meant as a false lead and not the actual place he was buried. Unfortunately, my feelings are very vague, so you could be right. I just can't get past the feeling of him being "whole" somewhere, and the image of a lid or door lifting and dirt falling in. I could be completely off, and I wish what I felt was more definite, ugh. But I hadn't considered your point at all before this post. So who knows.

Strange, but I envision a vertical concrete pipe of some sort that goes very deep with a lid on it, and water and I see it being right next to or on the edge of some thick brush. That's just the image that I keep thinking of when I try to think of what she might have done with him.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

While I realize this sounds horrible and I hate to mention this, but TH had a friend who was involved in landscaping. These folks have access to things that can make bodies disappear, like machinery and substances that can hasten the breakdown of a body. Knowing this makes me really think that it's quite possible a body may never be found.

BBM. You're right, and it is a scary thought that Terri had friends/acquaintances who were into landscaping or gardening. We schedule fall pruning for three trees in our yard, and there are times when I'm here to watch. Large tree limbs are strewn on the grass during the process before they're placed in a chute that grinds the branches into mulch in minutes I hope and pray that this is not among the possibilities of what happened to Kyron.

 

[Aedrys]

Strange, but I envision a vertical concrete pipe of some sort that goes very deep with a lid on it, and water and I see it being right next to or on the edge of some thick brush. That's just the image that I keep thinking of when I try to think of what she might have done with him.

Could this be a well? I immediately thought of that when you described this. Very interesting. I hadn't even thought about this, but it's possible! I just don't know if there are a lot of wells in Oregon.

 

[SurfieTX]

Could this be a well? I immediately thought of that when you described this. Very interesting. I hadn't even thought about this, but it's possible! I just don't know if there are a lot of wells in Oregon.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland_Water_Bureau"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland_Water_Bureau[/ame]

Relying entirely on water from wells until the mid-1850s, Portland residents became concerned when polluted drainage from the city's growing number of houses began to contaminate the wells. In 1856, Pioneer Water Works, a private company, got permission from Portland's government to pipe water from Caruthers Creek to some of these homes.[n 1]

 

[mkay882]

In my scenario Kyron died at the hands of TH alone.

IMO:
TH told Kyron to meet her at the truck instead of going to class.
Kyron did as she told him out of fear of provoking TH's wrath.
TH smothered or strangled Kyron and dumped him.
If Kyron's remains are eventually found they will be less that 75 feet off the road.
The area will be heavily wooded and possibly be down a steep drop.

I believe TH's 'love' for her husband turned into hatred for Kaine in the end.
I think when her MFH plans failed she hurt Kaine with what would, in a sense, 'kill him' anyway.
She took his son.

 

[cluciano63]

I'm not seeing any sort of container...sadly, I think he is just out there, in water or under piles of brush, if indeed he is not alive. I think it was hasty, quick getaway, time to be elsewhere, even if that elsewhere turns out to not be such a great alibi...it is working so far.

 

[angelswatchoverthem]

My take on what happened to Kyron is this:
1. I think Terri's marriage to KH had been troubled for a while, and it was not the first time she had had a failed relationship with a man. It was her 3rd, wasn't it?
2. I feel there was a possibility of some kind of relationship with DDS. Look at Terri's history with males. It looks as if she was trying to rid herself of all the male figures in her life. All her failed relationships with men. Then her Son J was sent away. The MFH plot targeted at Kaine. There was Kyron, another male, even though only 7 yrs. old.
3. Neither her or DDS had any real means of income as such. These two had some things in common, similarities. DDS also had not had much in the way of relationships with men. One failed relationship we have read of.
4. I believe these two plotted together in some way. I have also felt that if harm had come to Kyron and if it resulted in his death, premeditated, then i don't think Terri did it, but i feel maybe DDS could have, and Terri helped after the fact. DDS was not that close to Kyron i would think, not as close as Terri had been anyway, and i don't think Terri could have actually done anything to him like that, but that it was a plan by both these women, more so IF they were involved intimately with each other.
This is IF Terri & DDS had anything to do with Kyron's being missing, and is just speculation and theory on my part from all i have read on this case.
I believe it is a case of money and assets these two were hoping to gain for themselves by getting rid of KH and his son Kyron. Perhaps after the attempted MFH plot against Kaine, that might have been just testing things out to see what could be gotten away with, then that led to something more daring as in Kyron. And so far as we know neither of these women have been named as POI's so far.
As to how TH actually got Kyron out of the school i have no idea, but i think it was possible as Terri was very familiar with the school i would imagine.
I have watched a lot of true crime T.V shows, Forensic Files etc. and looking at the cases on there i often wonder, did those people really think they could get away with it! They must of been crazy!
I think it would have been interesting if LE could of had the house with Terri and DDS bugged when DDS was staying with Terri. They might have learned further about Kyron's fate?

 

[angelswatchoverthem]

I also might add i think the sexting MC was just a diversion in some desperate attempt to steer LE in the other direction, otherwise it doesn't make any sense to me! I think TH & DDs had a pact that if anything went wrong with their scheme they would cover for each other, and once DDS came into the limelight i think they knew they had to get lawyered up, so to speak. That is the only thing i can think of anyway!
Otherwise all of this was some stranger abduction and LE have had it all wrong?