Rain on my Parade
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Lies point us to the truth
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UK- Major incident declared in Southport after multiple stabbings, 29 July 2024- Latest: astheworldfallsdown
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icedtea4me,
I can understand Patsy wanting it, since it was from JonBenet.
Sentiment aside, it looks like Patsy ligature asphyxiated JonBenet, her fibers are embedded into the ligature knotting, which includes JonBenet's hair.
The wine-cellar is just an evidence dump-site, the gifts which have been opened, have similarly been deposited into the wine-cellar, out of sight, out of mind.
The story regarding the BR's Birthday Gifts is just a cover story to account for their presence in the wine-cellar.
So there is nothing dramatic about JonBenet being left in the wine-cellar along with the Partially Opened gifts, beyond putting distance between the primary crime-scene upstairs and the fake crime-scene downstairs in the basement.
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proust20
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"your gift is ME" implies that JB thought of herself as a commodity due to her pageant experience. While sweet, this sentiment seems out of kilter. "I don't feel pretty." also reflects the importance of appearances that PR And Nedra had instilled in her.
BR was said to be getting a bike for his birthday. If so, where was it stored? It wasn't with the other gifts in the WC. BR got a Lego set for Christmas? Then he was to get another set for his birthday? This is an example of the case's peculiar echoes and repetitions.
BR was said to be getting a bike for his birthday. If so, where was it stored? It wasn't with the other gifts in the WC. BR got a Lego set for Christmas? Then he was to get another set for his birthday? This is an example of the case's peculiar echoes and repetitions.
proust20,
Yes, another missing gift in action. Consider what Burke tells Dr Phil:
Dr Phil Interviewing Burke, excerpt
Get that, they both got bikes. How about this for confirmation:
Friday, December 26, 1997 Not Forgotten By Julie Poppen, Camera Staff Writer, excerpt
Just check the date on Julie Poppen's byline and compare with Burke's Dr Phil interview, and it appears he is telling the truth?
The one down in the wine-cellar apparently? Who knows what he was actually to get for his birthday.
Here is Patsy on the gifts:
June 1998 Patsy Ramsey Interrogation by Thomas Haney and Trip DeMuth
Do you reckon Patsy would need to open the Lego Set to see who it was for, duh?
Another very subtle pointer here is all the gifts were wrapped in FAO Schwartz Christmas paper.
If you look at all the photographs where JonBenet and Burke are next to Christmas gifts they are all wrapped FAO Schwartz paper.
So from all the prevarication by John and Patsy I'm assuming there was some kind of fallout over the Christmas gifts, and part of the proof is that there are missing photographs, and no video.
Likely destroyed because the gifts in the wine-cellar appear in them?
proust20
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Previously, I had not considered that the torn packages could have originally been under the Christmas tree and moved to the WC later?
BR and his toys and games:
Christmas night JR helps him assemble a toy before retiring. Years later, BR lets out that on Christmas night he went downstairs for a toy after the family went to bed. There are the already mentioned torn open gifts from FAO Schwarz about which PR lied. One of these presents was a Lego set. After JB's death BR concentrated on Nintendo. In this vein, BR told Dr. Bernhard that he goes 'beep-beep'. Also during this interview, he covers his face with a board game when the questioning becomes uncomfortable. During the funeral, he and DS scampered about the cemetery. During the memorial, he played with a toy airplane. There is the speculation that BR poked JB's body with his toy train tracks. His Train Room is close to the WC. His Swiss Army knife was found near the corpse. There are contradictions about BR receiving a bike for Christmas.
Is it known if the gifts in the WC actually were opened up?
BR and his toys and games:
Christmas night JR helps him assemble a toy before retiring. Years later, BR lets out that on Christmas night he went downstairs for a toy after the family went to bed. There are the already mentioned torn open gifts from FAO Schwarz about which PR lied. One of these presents was a Lego set. After JB's death BR concentrated on Nintendo. In this vein, BR told Dr. Bernhard that he goes 'beep-beep'. Also during this interview, he covers his face with a board game when the questioning becomes uncomfortable. During the funeral, he and DS scampered about the cemetery. During the memorial, he played with a toy airplane. There is the speculation that BR poked JB's body with his toy train tracks. His Train Room is close to the WC. His Swiss Army knife was found near the corpse. There are contradictions about BR receiving a bike for Christmas.
Is it known if the gifts in the WC actually were opened up?
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proust20,
This is what I reckon, same Christmas themed FAO Schwarz paper.
What BR tells us does not need to be factually correct, e.g. him and JR putting some toy together after returning from the White's, thats just an alibi.
Could be Burke wanting to explain away some detail in the then upcoming CBS Documentary, e.g.knife, who knows?
Not if he says he got one and Patsy purchased one from University Bicycles downtown Boulder.
It's just that it has vanished, this aspect was a major part of BlueCrab's theory that implicated BR and DS.
Also very strange he was tracked online by JR's private detectives and encouraged to stop posting.
The train tracks might be right, but then what explains the use of the paintbrush?
As far as I know. No actual details have ever been released beyond what can be gleaned from the BPD interviews.
As above suggests, Patsy says she opened them, whatever that means in a homicide context.
I think there is a photograph of the Lego Set, partially opened, out there, along with other various photographs where you can clearly see the FAO Schwarz paper pattern.
You also have Kolar mirroring the above details in his book, he declares Burke took responsibility for opening them.
Kolar does not state if he is quoting from a BPD interview, CSI Report or that he actually spoke with BR?
I doubt he has made it up, as someone would have highlighted any errors by now?
What is relevant about Kolar's remarks is that Burke himself says he opened the gifts Christmas Day afternoon.
Meaning, factually correct or not, BR knows an explanation is required that predates JonBenet's death. Ditto, JR and PR, who also offer explanations.
For folks who think a scenario involving the Partially Opened gifts is viable. We have a possible missing doll, bike, photographs and video, etc.
This suggests two theories one involving a fight over Christmas toys, another where JonBenet and Burke visit the basement Christmas Day Night looking for toys to open, which leads to a direct assault or disagreement over whatever they found?
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Rain on my Parade
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UKGuy,
Do these two statements actually belong together?
2000-08-28: Patsy Ramsey Interview - Atlanta, Georgia - August 28, 2000 (Screen Capture on left is from "CBS 48 Hours Investigates - Searching for a Killer" 10/04/2002)
Questioning in regards to said sweater/coat:
15 MR. KANE: Well, I am telling
16 you, it is -- is it conclusive in the sense
17 that, that there is something unique about it
18 that could only come from a particular item,
19 then the answer is no.
20 Is it that it is identical in all
21 respects to the fibers off of the jacket,
22 then the answer is yes.
23 Now, does that mean it is
24 conclusive?
25 MR. WOOD: It doesn't sound like
0188
1 it to me.
2 MR. KANE: Then you have got your answer.
I will continue to consider the scarf left on the wet bar and not taken into evidence as a source of said fiber evidence. It is a possibility.
Do these two statements actually belong together?
2000-08-28: Patsy Ramsey Interview - Atlanta, Georgia - August 28, 2000 (Screen Capture on left is from "CBS 48 Hours Investigates - Searching for a Killer" 10/04/2002)
Questioning in regards to said sweater/coat:
15 MR. KANE: Well, I am telling
16 you, it is -- is it conclusive in the sense
17 that, that there is something unique about it
18 that could only come from a particular item,
19 then the answer is no.
20 Is it that it is identical in all
21 respects to the fibers off of the jacket,
22 then the answer is yes.
23 Now, does that mean it is
24 conclusive?
25 MR. WOOD: It doesn't sound like
0188
1 it to me.
2 MR. KANE: Then you have got your answer.
I will continue to consider the scarf left on the wet bar and not taken into evidence as a source of said fiber evidence. It is a possibility.
Rain on my Parade
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proust20,
Great points! JB had put on makeup for the party and PR told her to march straight upstairs and remove it.
Yes, where was BR’s bike stored before Christmas and where did it go the next morning? Just disappeared in the mid of night.
Rain on my Parade,
Possibly not. I was writing fast trying to compress sentences, so its come out poorly.
I was trying to contrast the staging as a drama, with the utility of the wine-cellar.
The point about the jacket fibers is, say unlike JR's Israeli manufactured shirt, Patsy's jacket was mass produced, probably in the USA, so Kane has to reply then the answer is no., because some other person wearing a similar jacket could have deposited the fibers.
I doubt any jury would buy Wood's proposition, as the odds of them ending up in a ligature, in a specific wine-cellar in Boulder must be very very low?
Also Wood is just reminding Kane that Patsy's fibers are contestable in court, i.e. no smoking gun.
I've never seen any test results that match the scarf fibers to those on JonBenet.
I'm pretty sure the scarf fibers will have been examined and compared with those found on JonBenet, could be they are not releasing the results?
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icedtea4me
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Phil: I think your dad had said he used the flashlight that night to put you to bed that night and then you snuck downstairs to play.
Burke: yeah. I had some toy I wanted to put together. I remember being downstairs after everyone was kind of in bed...
http://www.topix.com/forum/news/jonbenet-ramsey/TAJER8FBVT9VK4JDP/burke-on-phil
Burke didn't let out anything. He confirmed what Dr Phil said his father [John] told him [Dr Phil] earlier. Since John knows that Burke is awake and downstairs, the chances of him allowing his son to stay up when he should be in bed sleeping are zero.
Why would it have been impossible for Patsy to have been in the wine cellar checking out the FAO Schwartz Xmas-wrapped gifts on Xmas Eve night and then for Burke to have been there Xmas afternoon?
Patsy's kitchen knife was located on the counter in the 2nd floor laundry area where Linda hid Burke's knife and more than likely told Patsy its location.
Burke more than likely would've received a bike as a gift back when he was JonBenet's age. Naturally, it wouldn't have occurred to Poppen that one of the bikes was for Patsy, not Burke.
Rain on my Parade
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Rain on my Parade,
Presumably if it has not been tested then it's difficult to link it to the case.
I'd like to see the complete list of the dna results regarding JonBenet's clothing and her body.
They might not prove anything significant but might tell us who could have been present.
Along similar lines to JR's fibers being found on JonBenet's inner thighs. This places JR at the crime-scene with a greater probability than that of Patsy and her fibers. Not many people are going accept the intruder wore clothing from the same factory that manufactured Patsy's fibers.
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Rain on my Parade
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UKGuy,
How could they possibly know what to take as evidence and what not too? Since they didn’t have anything in their possession that matched the fiber evidence they later requested PR sweater/coat.
There was no intruder.
Rain on my Parade,
They just take fiber samples from whatever they think is relevant then see if it matches with fibers at the crime-scene.
Its standard practise, results can be queued up on a computer with a list of results and analysis available for print.
They said they matched Patsy's jacket fibers to those found in the knotting of the ligature and on the sticky side of the duct-tape.
Similarly for JR his fibers matched those found on JonBenet's thighs.
This places PR and JR at the crime-scene, but we already know this as the GJ True Bills accused the parents of assisting the killer, i.e. the person.
The R's can contest the fiber evidence on the basis they are common industrial fibers, etc. Yet the one place they should not be is on JonBenet's person inside a little used wine-cellar.
Sure, I'm just underlining that with a probability estimate that any intruders fibers should not only match that of both parents, but end up in a basement rooom few knew about.
GoBuckeyes
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Not sure if it's relevant. So, for what it's worth, if anything...Many people in the U.S., not just in the south, drink cold iced tea in a glass. My Mom makes a gallon of sweet tea (now she uses monk fruit to sweeten) every morning and always has. It's kept in the refrigerator. While it was normally consumed with meals, if we got up late at night, as some kids do for a drink, occasionally we might have sneaked a small bit of iced tea instead of water.
However, most people make a gallon and discard the tea bags after it's brewed. Hmmmm....
proust20
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PR showed awareness of the importance of fiber evidence by wearing the same clothes as on the 25th, and then throwing herself on the body in front of witnesses. Her fibers being on the ligature fashioned with her paint brush is hard to explain away. This is also pertains to the JR fibers. As far is known, there are no BR fibers. Taken as a whole, this points away from BDI? Besides the fibers, there is the animal fur. Some think that the fur was from PR's boots. Would she be wearing these during the staging?
When the staging was finalized is impossible to comprehend. To speculate - Why not thoroughly wash JB down? Was there not enough time? Or should this not fit in with the kidnapping gone wrong scenario? The fiber transfer would have been mutual. Whatever JB was wearing would come off also. This would be difficult to determine, especially as BPD didn't know for what to look.
Perhaps this is mistaken, but I assume that the urine stain outside the WC indicates the location where JB was asphyxiated? If it were first, the head blow occurred at least 40 min. earlier. The blow could have happened anywhere in the house. Since she was still alive after being struck, dragging her about could be behind the bruises/abrasions found on the body. If she were moved after dying, the autopsy would show this? Only BR would have cause to drag the body. But if he dragged JB down the stairs, there would be physical evidence of this?
The GJ indictments are ambiguous. The peril to which her parents subjected her could mean the murder. Couldn't it also be the SA? We don't know how the GJ considered the SA. Given the media frenzy which would ensue if a GJ member were to speak out decisively, would the DA office want to pursue this person once the genie were out of the bottle? Doing so would only draw more attention. This GJ member would be seen as a victim of telling truth to power. When it comes to PR, in the USA one cannot be sued for libeling a dead person. So why is ST so cautious nowadays?
When the staging was finalized is impossible to comprehend. To speculate - Why not thoroughly wash JB down? Was there not enough time? Or should this not fit in with the kidnapping gone wrong scenario? The fiber transfer would have been mutual. Whatever JB was wearing would come off also. This would be difficult to determine, especially as BPD didn't know for what to look.
Perhaps this is mistaken, but I assume that the urine stain outside the WC indicates the location where JB was asphyxiated? If it were first, the head blow occurred at least 40 min. earlier. The blow could have happened anywhere in the house. Since she was still alive after being struck, dragging her about could be behind the bruises/abrasions found on the body. If she were moved after dying, the autopsy would show this? Only BR would have cause to drag the body. But if he dragged JB down the stairs, there would be physical evidence of this?
The GJ indictments are ambiguous. The peril to which her parents subjected her could mean the murder. Couldn't it also be the SA? We don't know how the GJ considered the SA. Given the media frenzy which would ensue if a GJ member were to speak out decisively, would the DA office want to pursue this person once the genie were out of the bottle? Doing so would only draw more attention. This GJ member would be seen as a victim of telling truth to power. When it comes to PR, in the USA one cannot be sued for libeling a dead person. So why is ST so cautious nowadays?
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Rain on my Parade
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UKGuy,
Not taking the soiled pj’s found in JB’s bedroom (and to big for her) i.g. bloomies size 12 wasn’t considered relevant either.
2000-08-28: Patsy Ramsey Interview - Atlanta, Georgia - August 28, 2000
3 MR. LEVIN: I think that is
4 probably fair. Based on the state of the
5 art scientific testing, we believe the fibers
6 from her jacket were found in the paint
7 tray, were found tied into the ligature found
8 on JonBenet's neck, were found on the blanket
9 that she is wrapped in, were found on the
10 duct tape that is found on the mouth, and
11 the question is, can she explain to us how
12 those fibers appeared in those places that
13 are associated with her daughter's death.
14 And I understand you are not going to answer
15 those.
ST deposition 9-21-01 gives a great statement here in regards to PR fibers:
The
19 red fibers, we're talking about the red
20 fibers off the duct tape, right, the ones
21 that Mr. Hoffman asked you about?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. That were consistent or a likely
24 match with Patsy Ramsey's jacket?
25 A. Yes.
251
1 Q. That was the red and black and
2 gray jacket that she was wearing?
3 A. I've always heard it referred to
4 as a red and black jacket, yes.
5 Q. It's the one in the photograph,
6 though, that was produced where they went
7 back a year afterwards and tried to find what
8 they were wearing, right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Were you aware of the fact that
11 Priscilla White owned an identical jacket,
12 that in fact Patsy Ramsey bought her jacket
13 because she liked Priscilla White's so much?
14 A. Until you told me that right now,
15 no.
16 Q. So I assume that no request, that
17 you're aware of, was ever made for the Whites
18 to give articles of clothing with respect to
19 this investigation?
20 A. They may have been asked to give
21 clothing; I'm unaware of that.
22 Q. There were no black fibers that
23 were found on the duct tape that were said
24 to be consistent with the fibers on Patsy
25 Ramsey's red and black jacket, were there?
252
1 A. It's my understanding that the
2 four fibers were red in color.
Other key evidence connected with the duct tape was trace evidence which had adhered to the surface of the tape. CellMark laboratories, who conducted the testing on the duct tape, found, red, blue, pink, purple and brown cloth fibers, and animal fur probably beaver."
You mean her labia not her thighs don’t you?
JR fiber evidence came from a specific item. PR evidence linking her jacket were consistent.
Rain on my Parade,
Yes, although the precise details have not been released.
Both parents fiber samples link them directly to the wine-cellar.
JR's is the stronger link as his fibers are foreign, i.e. Israeli, whereas PR's fibers are of USA manufacture. The latter is not fact, but given what we know, its good enough.
If Patsy's jacket is made from polyester, Springer has published an encyclopedia with 7,500 different fiber types. Point being the fibers can all be identified. The FBI have a storage facility where they keep all their samples, they do the same with ink, in case somebody fakes some important documents.
Yes, dereliction of duty when it comes to CSI gathering the evidence, also they never sealed her bedroom.
It's quite likely they deliberately overlooked lots of stuff. Not testing those pj's for a dna match is criminal behavour!
I reckon they all knew the case was BDI and it was never going to go anywhere?
The size-12's are different as apparently the only pair in the house were on JonBenet.
As you know various tests were ran on them.
It would be nice to have all the results released so we can see what the distribution of Ramsey dna looks like across the crime-scene, e.g. is there any of BR's touch-dna anywhere on JonBenet or her clothing, apart from the Barbie Nightgown?
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proust20,
Both Patsy's and John's fiber deposits link them directly to the wine-cellar, as it is a homicide crime-scene they should not be there!
Burke Ramsey's touch-dna was found deposited on the bloodstained Barbie Nightgown, again given the circumstances it should not be present.
The above forensic evidence links all three Ramsey's directly to the wine-cellar and subsequently all three colluded in postmortem staging to fake a crime-scene.
JonBenet may have been whacked on the head first and collapsed outside the wine-cellar door, followed by a urine release?
It's possible JonBenet was dragged, say by her arms, resulting in the contusions and abrasions on her body?
Yes, lividity marking would demonstrate this.
The parents were late to the crime-scene, possibly explaining why so little was done to normalise JonBenet's appearance?
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Rain on my Parade
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UKGuy,
It would have been great had they retrieved PR clothing, and Priscilla White’s jacket for comparison, straight away.
There are although 500
As it so happened, they did retrieve the ink from the sharpie that was used to write the RN and then put back in it’s container.
As for the 7,500 different fiber types (I can only find 28 types of fiber). I can’t image polyester having that many types. Do you mind giving reference to Springer’s findings, please?
This is interesting. I have read it was eventually sealed off on the 26th while the R’s were still in house. There is also the Media link I posted that shows the tape on her door.
And yes, CSI likely knew it was BDI and therefore not prosecutable.
Yes, released Ramsey’s dna across the board would be nice. After all they were exonerated. So why not?
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