MA - Remains of 3 infants found, Erika Murray charged, Blackstone, Sept 2014

[bflocket]

I can not apologize for disagreeing with your analogy and saying so.

I so wish we could round up unfit parents and neuter them...even better if some sort of test was required before reproducing....but I digress.

Sorry, Nancy.
The world doesn't work like that and we can't put ourselves upon a throne and proclaim it to do so. There are things called Human Rights. If someone had known about the situation, they should have spoken up before it got to this point.

We can't go back in time and point fingers of blame. If we could, there are many people that saw members of this family around and could have done something. They didn't know what their home life was like and how bad it was.
The mother more than likely knew "something" was "wrong" but was too scared and confused to do what was "right."

I don't want to see a mentally ill person "picked on" before all evidence/info is in.
She may be as guilty as sin of torturing the kids to death for months on end. We don't know that.

Until the autopsy results are in, NO ONE knows whether these children were born alive, stillborn or born with a congenital defect of some sort.

<mod snip>..

 

[quesarita]

I am pretty sure the comments about no electricity and no running water came from video clips from wbz who interviewed the woman who found the children.

I agree - all of the information about no electricity or running water is sourced back to that one interview with that one woman; and IMO she made that assumption on a few visual clues - air conditioner installed upstairs but not running, possibly no lights working upstairs, no bathroom upstairs when she wanted to wash the baby. I don't believe she spent time in other parts of the house, but left immediately when the police officer told her to.

 

[Linda7NJ]

There were two horrifically abused & neglected babies in that house...

"Picking on" their mother? Seriously?


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[bflocket]

There were two horrifically abused & neglected babies in that house...

"Picking on" their mother? Seriously?


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I'm not nominating her for Mother of the Year.

Do you understand anything about mental illness and isolation?

She's quite obviously mentally ill and wound up being isolated, even in her own home.
If she's not "isolated," then where is the outcry against all of the people that saw her and interacted with her during this time and "let it happen?"

 

[sapofamily]

For those asking about where the 'no electricity/running water' notion came from, it can be sourced here:

"The children were crying, covered from head-to-toe in feces and maggots. The house was dark &#8212; sheets and blankets covered the windows &#8212; and stifling hot. There was no electricity or running water."

Article about the neighbor's gruesome discovery when she found the 2 children upstairs; headline "Heslam: Neighbor on Blackstone horror: &#8216;I tried not to panic&#8217;"

http://bostonherald.com/news_opinio..._neighbor_on_blackstone_horror_i_tried_not_to

 

[SaucyGal]

Lovejac -

I am not a clinician so I can't say with certainty what the treatment will be in this case. The first thing is to address the medical issues which I'm sure will present a challenge in and of itself. Having no known medical history coupled with the extreme neglect and lack of contact, I can't even imagine the hell it's going to be for both child and treatment team. The sensory deprivation compounded by the inability to cognitively process everything will probably be very overwhelming for this little one. Down the road I'm sure there will have to be intensive therapy, a lot of play therapy, occupational therapy, etc. It used to be difficult to find caregivers for a child with RAD. Trying to find a placement for a special needs child is difficult enough, but with a child dx'ed RAD will be even more so. The caregivers will practically have to become a treatment team 24/7 themselves. Seeing what families went through with children that had personality disorders (they share many of the same traits) is one of the many reasons this situation breaks my heart. It will be a miracle if this little one can, not only survive, but overcome all the stacked odds. As far as I last knew, there really aren't many long-term or permanent treatment facilities anymore. If the impairments are so great that he/she can't function without assistance he/she may be placed in a state facility if those are even available now. They will try to place the child in the least restrictive environment as possible.

In saying ALL of that....This is just my opinion from personal experience and research. This is a very tragic situation. I am trying to remain positive that something good will come from it all.

 

[quesarita]

For those asking about where the 'no electricity/running water' notion came from, it can be sourced here:

"The children were crying, covered from head-to-toe in feces and maggots. The house was dark &#8212; sheets and blankets covered the windows &#8212; and stifling hot. There was no electricity or running water."

Article about the neighbor's gruesome discovery when she found the 2 children upstairs; headline "Heslam: Neighbor on Blackstone horror: &#8216;I tried not to panic&#8217;"

http://bostonherald.com/news_opinio..._neighbor_on_blackstone_horror_i_tried_not_to

Exactly - the police never mentioned it, and I didn't get the impression from the article that this woman made any kind of investigation into the power or water - she went into the house to see about the crying babies, and once she saw them, she clearly was only trying to comfort them as best she could. If you saw two children being kept in an extremely hot part of the house where there was an air conditioning unit, wouldn't you assume that there was no power rather than that the parents would just choose not to run it? Especially if you tried to turn on a light switch because it was dark inside and no lights came on?

If the water was turned off, there would have been no place for the 4 people living downstairs to have gone to the toilet.

 

[annemc2]

SaucyGal upthread mentioned the story of Genie:

Genie (born 1957) is the pseudonym of a feral child who was the victim of extraordinarily severe abuse, neglect and social isolation. Her circumstances are prominently recorded in the annals of abnormal child psychology.[1][2] Genie's father kept her locked alone in a room from the age of 20 months to 13 years, 7 months, almost always strapped to a child's toilet or bound in a crib with her arms and legs completely immobilized, and left her severely malnourished. During this time she was never exposed to any significant amount of speech, and as a result she did not acquire language during childhood. Her abuse came to the attention of Los Angeles child welfare authorities on November 4, 1970.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genie_(feral_child)

It's a disturbing story, but definitely worth a read, especially when wondering what fate may hold in store for the two younger children found in the home.

 

[Z&BsMommy]

Z&BsMommy :grouphug:

Aww I love you guys!! Angelise is watching over us with bella, jenise, and all of our precious angels... She would have been 4 this year.. [emoji20]

I'm kinda going back and forth on whether she is mentally ill. Either way, I think daddy dearest not being charged is ridiculous!!!

 

[wenwe4]

Here is an article looking at long term effects of isolation, lack of appropriate care, and "institutionalized" children who were treated with more care (and on a more consistent basis) than the 5 mo old and 3 y/o.

This documents the brain changes and how that manifests itself in children raised in extreme neglect.

http://www.livescience.com/21778-early-neglect-alters-kids-brains.html

 

[tlcya]

Aww I love you guys!! Angelise is watching over us with bella, jenise, and all of our precious angels... She would have been 4 this year.. [emoji20]

I'm kinda going back and forth on whether she is mentally ill. Either way, I think daddy dearest not being charged is ridiculous!!!

I agree - torn about mental illness (legal definition) but it is obvious to me there there is some form of severe personality disorder or issue at play with her. But I cannot buy her BS that she adores and cherishes those two living unreported babies. If she actually believes that then she may well be legally mentally ill because there is no way IMO that an actually sane person could truly believe that they love the children they treated in such a manner.

I truly hope the older two are doing alright with their paternal grandparents. They are old enough to be aware of this story in the news, on the web and their already fragile lives have now become public and are crumbled to bits around them.

Just truly hurt for all the living kids. My heart hurts for those dead infants too but at least their suffering was brief. Those still living children have enormously long rows to hoe and it is so unfair because they had no control over the planting of the rows they are stuck with.

ETA do not get me started on Dad. IMO he saw, heard and knew only what was convenient. Period.

 

[Z&BsMommy]

I agree - torn about mental illness (legal definition) but it is obvious to me there there is some form of severe personality disorder or issue at play with her. But I cannot buy her BS that she adores and cherishes those two living unreported babies. If she actually believes that then she may well be legally mentally ill because there is no way IMO that an actually sane person could truly believe that they love the children they treated in such a manner.

I truly hope the older two are doing alright with their paternal grandparents. They are old enough to be aware of this story in the news, on the web and their already fragile lives have now become public and are crumbled to bits around them.

Just truly hurt for all the living kids. My heart hurts for those dead infants too but at least their suffering was brief. Those still living children have enormously long rows to hoe and it is so unfair because they had no control over the planting of the rows they are stuck with.

ETA do not get me started on Dad. IMO he saw, heard and knew only what was convenient. Period.

I agree 100% I can't wrap my head around the fact that she was loving? towards the older ones, yet it seems to me, had no compassion for the younger two. You either have a maternal instinct or you don't. She had to hear them crying, see them in horrible condition, and felt nothing??? I feel guilty if I say no to my son.. Bizarre to say the least. Sorry for the rambling thoughts here..

 

[SaucyGal]

According to RR's former co-worker, he knew about the condition of the house back in 2009. Hopefully I can post the link correctly:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/20...ead-animals/Rlti2fApL84Q65q8FDLNvO/story.html

FWIW, I read a comment on an MSM story that a former resident (prior to EM/RR) that there is a door from the basement to the outside.

 

[bflocket]

I'm kinda going back and forth on whether she is mentally ill. Either way, I think daddy dearest not being charged is ridiculous!!!

You only need half of one eye open to see that she is mentally ill. To what extent and whether it could have been treated are different questions...

As crazy as it sounds, I am inclined to think that Rivera didn't know what all was going on upstairs.
We don't yet know if the kids (living and deceased) found upstairs were his children.
The home is owned by his family and is big enough to have a livable basement, which is likely why they were there. I can see him letting her (the mother of his children) live there. They may not have got along due to her mental state or something on his part, but she was the mother of his kids.
And when I say that, I mean the "kids" he knew about. We don't even know who the father is. He had no reason to pry into her business if she was up in her part of the house and wasn't causing him trouble. Since the kids were with him, why would he have a reason to venture upstairs?

 

[Linda7NJ]

I do not believe anyone believes she's not mentally ill.

I just do not believe she's criminally LEGALLY insane.


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[bflocket]

I'm not looking for some kind of insanity defense. We just need to know more about what really happened here before we make our decisions about why or how it happened.

 

[tlcya]

that it happened is all that matter to those little ones dead and alive, that is just my own opinion. Not why or how. You won't see anyone calling EM names and you will not see people carrying torches or nooses but outrage is to be expected when the negligence toward her children is so gross and over such a long period.

I want to know how and why. But even once I know it, it won't change my view that this woman heinously abused her children and possibly is responsible for the death of three.

Others may feel differently. That is fine by me and their right.

As an old friend and fellow member said once. If we all wanted to mind our own business none of us would be here.

IMO too many people minded their own business for too long in this case.

 

[Renee110]

I'm sure this woman has mental illness, but she was totally aware of what she was doing. I know she knew because she went to great lengths to hide what was wrong and present a different life to everyone. I have no sympathy for her. She just did what she wanted to do and got caught.

 

[wenwe4]

Good to know the "bio-hazard waste" they removed was mostly soiled diapers. I was worried they were talking about "sharps" containers and it doesn't sound like that was the issue.

 

[wenwe4]

I'm not looking for some kind of insanity defense. We just need to know more about what really happened here before we make our decisions about why or how it happened.

I don't that anyone will actually know "why or how" it happened - in the end. What we do know is that she raised 4 babies in an uninhabitable home, she kept secrets that endanged 2 babies lives, and she didn't meet the 2 babies basic needs to not only survive but also thrive, and she had the ability to meet 2 more children's needs so as not arouse interest by the community.

I am just not "feeling the love" that a diagnosis of mental illness will explain away her behaviors. She will have to explain herself because despite the "autopsy" results on the deceased infants, she still didn't seek appropriate pre-natal care which could have prevented fetal distress leading to miscarriage or still birth.

Again, I am only basing my opinion on proven facts that she committed crimes by endangering children, lived in substandard housing - despite the resources to ameliorate that, and "concealed the death of children out of wedlock" - which on the face appears to be true.

My opinion only, but I think that explaining this away as being "mental illness" actually harms those who struggle with significant issues of mental health. Those that take their medications regularly, attend therapeutic appointments to achieve better functioning, and really try hard to control their disability in appropriate and productive ways deserve to be credited for more than just having a "label". It is all about learning how to deal with and overcome their struggles so that they have control over those factors and not allowing the illness control them. All of these options were always available for EM if she chose to seek assitance for herself and her children. Sometimes I think Mental Illness can be a "catch all" phrase for explaining those things that we don't know how to explain or understand.