MA - Vanessa Marcotte, 27, murdered, Princeton, 7 Aug 2016 #5

[Evey]

Oh and both her and KV went out to eat with their dads before they died. My thing is as Vanessa's age I wouldn't be going to my moms so often unless I was seeing someone there secretly or not secretly. Likely they didn't have anything to do with the case. Or her dad or mom cod be sick or something. Cause to me she works all week then has the weekend to spend with a guy that's what I've done before. She also wouldn't have separate anything to talk to him. Since they haven't ruled out a connection or tested the blood it intrigues me. I also wondered hat if it's LISK but he hasn't got his 4tv New York jogger yet and changed up his target to throw people off. But in those cases i sometimes wonder if Edward Wayne edwards or the green river killer caused some. I can't recall what year they both got arrested and if it's after all the victims had been killed.

 

[Evey]

Good point. It hasn't been proven to be where she was killed yet. If the person attacked her somewhere else , it would be on her running route and if they did what you said, bringing her to the path location, he knew of the path location and he was smart, trying to manipulate the crime scene. I have always thought this seems to be that he is a calculated, smart person with experience.

Yes I believe this guy is very smart and calculated but also cocky(in a way made me think lisk but joggers instead) this person knew her and her route and habits. Maybe he fakes a flat tire or something and she being nice tries to help and then grabs her. Or someone who lives so close that she never made it to that area until after he had killed her. I just can't get it out of my mind that 3 female joggers all killed from New York. I doubt ally was the same perp but if she was and one more turns up then it could be lisk targeting something else switching up it all except the number. And I think someone could have wanted her body to look as if Satan worshippers did it because of the whole tying her to the wood that looks placed just so and then the fire would done off to some as that. And I don't think any girl my age would be coming back each weekend unless for a man or sick family or sick bestfriend. I would be going out. She had something that took her there each weekend but what was it? I'm sure she loves her family and the town but unless the family is ill I just don't see her going there every weekend and not going out or having time to herself in New York. It screams not single or at least talking to someone holding her attention or worth coming home for. Didn't she blog? Maybe she was writing on a subject she spent the weekends investigating and got killed for it.

 

[ForensicMass]

This theory is as good as any, but I don't see her heading to the woods. It's easy for me to say what I would have done, having time to think, but I think she would have tried running towards that driveway across the road about 100 yards south, only because I think her first reaction would be to get someones attention.
I don't think she had any time at all to think, because I think she was ambushed from behind. That comes from my belief that this was planned, and if that is true, he would have wanted somehow to keep her from screaming. I think he hit her in the head, and knocked her semi conscious.
One question I have been asking myself is, Most believe that she was abducted on the beginning of her walk/run, and I believe that too, but, why was her back towards traffic?(if that was the case) Most runners run towards the traffic. If in fact her back was towards traffic, How did this guy know in advance what side of the road she would be on, unless he knew her pattern and she always ran with her back towards traffic?
Maybe her back wasn't to the traffic, but if that's the case, this guy took stupid chances crossing that road where he would have been seen dragging her across the road from a mile away. That would have given her a chance to run some distance as well,because I don't see him ambusing her without her seeing him cross, meaning he would have had to drag her more distance on the road, and risk being seen for a longer period of time.

Continuing on the topic of whether she would have gone into the woods on her own accord in a state of panic I found this information regarding what you should do during an attempted abduction. As you assert one of the main things you should do is find a public place. But if Vanessa knew that odds were slim of getting anyone's attention she would have had to move on from that goal. Enumerated in literature, we find the following information of what to do if you're being attacked :


"Put something between you and the attacker. You may not be able to outrun your attacker, but if you can put something — a busy street, a group of people, or even a car (which you can run around as he tries to pursue you) — between you and them, you may be able to delay them enough to get away or to cause the attacker to give up."

This is what I think she was attempting to do. She knew already that she wasn't going to outrun him, and she already knew time had run out to be witnessed.

Regarding which direction she ran, On the road with relatively little traffic like that. ( meaning two cars don't pass each other all that consistently). I believe she may not have been too concerned with her direction relative to traffic. someone earlier had suggested that she would have run on whichever the side of the road where there was a safer shoulder (no guardrail).

I zoomed in on the tracked routes in MapMyRun. It appears that she always ran with traffic when exiting her driveway toward the north. But her track also shows that her out-and-back paths criss-cross. In addition it appears that she does jump from one side to the other at times. Probably avoiding cars as they approach. The degree of accuracy of the mapping is questionable but I think it is reliable enough to say that she didn't always run in a particular way with respect to traffic.

 

[Rocky1]

Just a question but how did Vanessa travel to Princeton each weekend? By train or bus? Or she drove herself? I ask because I think she's connected to the KV case and she has been at the train station leading me to wonder(and I also saw the missing girl who was headed to the metro) could some serial killer be stalking the local transportation or working for it and picking out joggers? And how often did ally brueger use fbkse forms of transportation? And to me I think she was not killed there but he did the fire to make us assume it. I think he brought her there dead and set fire so everyone would assume some person set it up all sadistic and would suspect him less. And someone mentioned people who live close or would be the backyard of and that makes me wonder was she found near any makes backyard or property? Clearly thought out over time as he stalked her and probably had an obsession with her maybe he was a neighbor. Maybe he stalked her back to New York one day and saw karina and followed her and killed her to fulfill his need because it wasn't safe for him to get Vanessa yet. They look so much alike after all. But why haven't they tested the DNA found against the other DNA? That would rule out the same perp

She took a bus.If someone was staking her that used public transportation, how did he get to Mass from NY? If he took a bus to Worcester, he still has to travel about 20 miles or so to Princeton, know her routine, and if he followed her when she came up on friday/sat morning, did he hide in the woods all that time?
You could be right, but, I don't the cases are connected. They lived an hour away from each other in NY, and most runners are around their ages, many have the same hair length etc, so I am thinking that it's law or average they would look so alike.
As it has been posted, LE has a responsibility to tell the public if a serial killer is at large, and assuming they have both DNA, if they did match, they would be obligated. JMO

 

[ForensicMass]

I thought about her walking in the woods to pee, but if this happened on the start of her walk/run, she would have just left her moms, and I would think she would have done that before she left. The other thing that made me think that wasn't the case, is, someone would have had to see her duck in the woods at the exact time she did, and although that is possible would have also had to make the decision to strike within seconds.

Yes I agree the likelihood of this scenario is so low that we might as well rule it out. I know anything is possible but we should stick to what is probable. This isn't probable.

 

[ForensicMass]

Oh and both her and KV went out to eat with their dads before they died. My thing is as Vanessa's age I wouldn't be going to my moms so often unless I was seeing someone there secretly or not secretly. Likely they didn't have anything to do with the case. Or her dad or mom cod be sick or something. Cause to me she works all week then has the weekend to spend with a guy that's what I've done before. She also wouldn't have separate anything to talk to him. Since they haven't ruled out a connection or tested the blood it intrigues me. I also wondered hat if it's LISK but he hasn't got his 4tv New York jogger yet and changed up his target to throw people off. But in those cases i sometimes wonder if Edward Wayne edwards or the green river killer caused some. I can't recall what year they both got arrested and if it's after all the victims had been killed.

Correct me if I am wrong but DNA was found at both crime scenes meaning VMs and KVs. If this was the same guy these cases would have been linked immediately and we would know about it. Not linked. To me we don't even need to go into the specifics of all the other reasons why it is unlikely these cases are connected. Two DNA samples, they don't match. Am I way off base here?!

 

[Rocky1]

Continuing on the topic of whether she would have gone into the woods on her own accord in a state of panic I found this information regarding what you should do during an attempted abduction. As you assert one of the main things you should do is find a public place. But if Vanessa knew that odds were slim of getting anyone's attention she would have had to move on from that goal. Enumerated in literature, we find the following information of what to do if you're being attacked :


"Put something between you and the attacker. You may not be able to outrun your attacker, but if you can put something — a busy street, a group of people, or even a car (which you can run around as he tries to pursue you) — between you and them, you may be able to delay them enough to get away or to cause the attacker to give up."

This is what I think she was attempting to do. She knew already that she wasn't going to outrun him, and she already knew time had run out to be witnessed.

Regarding which direction she ran, On the road with relatively little traffic like that. ( meaning two cars don't pass each other all that consistently). I believe she may not have been too concerned with her direction relative to traffic. someone earlier had suggested that she would have run on whichever the side of the road where there was a safer shoulder (no guardrail).

I zoomed in on the tracked routes in MapMyRun. It appears that she always ran with traffic when exiting her driveway toward the north. But her track also shows that her out-and-back paths criss-cross. In addition it appears that she does jump from one side to the other at times. Probably avoiding cars as they approach. The degree of accuracy of the mapping is questionable but I think it is reliable enough to say that she didn't always run in a particular way with respect to traffic.

While tracking her runs, did you ever see her on the cart path. I'm not sure she had ever been on it, or knew where it went, but that would help.

 

[Evey]

One last thing before bed. If this guy used a torch as it seems, then what if this guy is from where they ate? A chef or something because they keep those around for creme brûlée and other foods. He could have saw or met her there and stalked her. And just now Reasor she commuted on a bus I even more so think her and KV got stalked by a smart experienced killer who's working for the transportation or stalks the areas. Also what if the guy hit her with the car then tossed her in or pretended to be lost? I believe we will find out the crime scene is the basement or garage etc or a neighbor maybe the dad or the son if there's kn close to her she who coukd have been obsessed. He knew the area or at least studied if each weekend

 

[Rocky1]

Correct me if I am wrong but DNA was found at both crime scenes meaning VMs and KVs. If this was the same guy these cases would have been linked immediately and we would know about it. Not linked. To me we don't even need to go into the specifics of all the other reasons why it is unlikely these cases are connected. Two DNA samples, they don't match. Am I way off base here?!

It has been assumed that DNA was found on VM, but never confirmed, unlike the KV case.
The reason it was assumed, was because LE confirmed it was a male. Although I agree that it is more that likely LE does have the DNA, there are other ways to narrow it down to him being a male. Law of average says it was a male. He could have dropped a males watch, or glasses, or they may have a size 13 foot print etc.
Not positive his face was scratched or cut up either. If she did get his DNA under her fingernails, it could have come from his back,or his arm.
All not likely, but possible.

 

[Rocky1]

Still throwing out the torch theory. Who does a 4 foot long + test burn on a log, on multiple logs?
Once the torch is lit, it is at full temp, why a test burn?

 

[ForensicMass]

While tracking her runs, did you ever see her on the cart path. I'm not sure she had ever been on it, or knew where it went, but that would help.

No. I looked at all of her Princeton runs fairly closely. She never left the side of the road on any of them except to enter her driveway.

I will say that being such a small town with so few roads in that area I'm sure she had at least a moderate understanding of the relative layout of the streets. and also being a deciduous forest in that area that loses its leaves in the fall I am almost certain that the houses on Connor Lane would be partly visible from BSR in the winter time (I'll try to confirm that when I am near there again).

Also being a runner one thing I can say is that when you are traveling on foot, when running or especially when walking. You notice a lot more than you do when you are driving. Her typical pace in the area of the path was variable around 11-13 minutes/mile. That is walking pace. With the asphalt apron along the roadway and the lack of trees in the path, I have no doubt that she had noticed it before.

It's quite possible, maybe even likely, though that she had never been on it. In the hypothetical scenario of a woodsy escape, she was going here as a last resort.

I agree it doesn't seem like a great place to go. But if I am to accept that a vehicle was involved in this crime, I think the odds of her running down in there still beat out the odds of a perpetrator who premeditatedly parks his vehicle on BSR and plans to commit the crime there OR returns to the scene of the crime in a vehicle immediately following the crime. The fact that she might have run in there seems like it might not have been a good option given that she obviously did not get away. But I still like it more than the other two things I just mentioned. I really have nothing for the theory that he returns to the crime in a vehicle. He has committed this crime in a stealthy fashion, without a vehicle. ( if he parked one at a secondary location for the sole purpose of not letting it get connected to the crime). Why would he introduced the vehicle to the crime scene ? Makes no sense! If he had to go and get tools and he lived too far away which necessitated the use of the car, The tools themselves were in the car, it's still would make more sense for him to just get what he needed put the car back in the hidden location that he initially used and return to the site on foot through the woods.

 

[ForensicMass]

It has been assumed that DNA was found on VM, but never confirmed, unlike the KV case.
The reason it was assumed, was because LE confirmed it was a male. Although I agree that it is more that likely LE does have the DNA, there are other ways to narrow it down to him being a male. Law of average says it was a male. He could have dropped a males watch, or glasses, or they may have a size 13 foot print etc.
Not positive his face was scratched or cut up either. If she did get his DNA under her fingernails, it could have come from his back,or his arm.
All not likely, but possible.

Remember that we know from numerous reports that law-enforcement has collected DNA from locals. There is no reason to do that unless they have something from the crime scene for comparison


On the scratches I completely agree. I'm sure she would have targeted his eyes and face but that doesn't mean that she was successful. He was obviously able to overpower her.

 

[searunner]

Is there anywhere online or elsewhere where you can plug a person's name in & see what car they own?

Great question. Answer you received was incorrect, though it *might* be true in Mass.

This question popped into my mind after the info about the dark SUV was released. I was curious, so googled something like "finding out what car someone drives" -- and bingo! You can use Progressive Insurance's site to find our what car people drive even if they're NOT insured by Progressive. All you need is name, address and birth date. I tested using myself and the complete info on my car came up. Can't recall if color came up - and am working so have limited time at moment. As for birthdays, you should be able to find that info out online for free or for very little cost if you don't know it... Addresses are usually (too) easily found online.

I don't live in MA, but live in a state which shares many similarities with MA, so thinking Progressive's system should work for MA residents, too - but no guarantee.

Someone may want to check it out. I was going to using one of several people I know who live in MA.

More to add on other topics -- some meaty posts lately -- but work becons. Will post soon.

Welcome to our busy newcomer with the appropo username. Completely agree that the probability of the perp returning to the scene (in a car or not) is very small. I also see the crime as likely committed near where she was found.

ThinkHard -- good to see you back.

 

[ThinkHard]

Your attack sounds quite terrifying. But it doesn't sound like an all out blitz. Which I think was what happened to VANESSA. Also Vanessa surely knew what kind of traffic to expect down that road. And as was shown in the media from that location you can see a full half-mile in each direction, I don't doubt that she might have looked down the road praying for a car. I just think if she didn't see one a within that mile of flat straight roadway, she may have moved to her next option. With someone right on your tail that kind of a wait (for a vehicle which may or may not be approaching from a half mile away) would probably seemed pretty perilous, and require other actions.
I think of it like a fox. They are incredibly smart animals. A few times I've been driving and a fox has run out in front of me. The fox sees me, panics and does a 90, and starts running down the middle of the road in the same direction which I am traveling, because it knows it's the path of least resistance and it's speed is greatest there. But after about five seconds of full-out sprinting it becomes clear to the fox that he will not out run my vehicle On the road. Thus he takes another 90° turn straight into the forest. This guy could have been so close to her that she ran out of time looking for vehicles approaching. He could have been in physical contact with her even. At which point if she breaks free and stays on the road there is nothing to stop him from catching her again.

I understand what you are saying and I understand you are basing it on your personal experiences but I am also basing my view on this on my own. And I respectfully disagree with your conclusion...I just don't think it's very likely she would have run into the woods to escape. I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this. Btw I wasn't visiting a foreign country when it happened, I had been living in one for several months at that point and it was in my own neighborhood, so I was familiar with my surroundings.

Btw regarding the perp being from Worcester Fitchburg etc (don't forget Leominster as that's where she grew up). ... but anyway I just wanted to add many people I grew up with who lived in Princeton moved to Worcester, some still live there, some have moved back to another wachusett area town...my point is there are people who are currently Worcester locals or other areas nearby that would still know Princeton because they grew up there and still have friends and family there AND live nearby.

....which is honestly very creepy to me because I know one guy who is a Princeton native, runs a business that would put him in contact with girls VM's age, sometimes drives his uncles dark SUV, has a history of infidelity, and a history of violence against women when they don't put out.

 

[Rocky1]

No. I looked at all of her Princeton runs fairly closely. She never left the side of the road on any of them except to enter her driveway.

I will say that being such a small town with so few roads in that area I'm sure she had at least a moderate understanding of the relative layout of the streets. and also being a deciduous forest in that area that loses its leaves in the fall I am almost certain that the houses on Connor Lane would be partly visible from BSR in the winter time (I'll try to confirm that when I am near there again).

Also being a runner one thing I can say is that when you are traveling on foot, when running or especially when walking. You notice a lot more than you do when you are driving. Her typical pace in the area of the path was variable around 11-13 minutes/mile. That is walking pace. With the asphalt apron along the roadway and the lack of trees in the path, I have no doubt that she had noticed it before.

It's quite possible, maybe even likely, though that she had never been on it. In the hypothetical scenario of a woodsy escape, she was going here as a last resort.

I agree it doesn't seem like a great place to go. But if I am to accept that a vehicle was involved in this crime, I think the odds of her running down in there still beat out the odds of a perpetrator who premeditatedly parks his vehicle on BSR and plans to commit the crime there OR returns to the scene of the crime in a vehicle immediately following the crime. The fact that she might have run in there seems like it might not have been a good option given that she obviously did not get away. But I still like it more than the other two things I just mentioned. I really have nothing for the theory that he returns to the crime in a vehicle. He has committed this crime in a stealthy fashion, without a vehicle. ( if he parked one at a secondary location for the sole purpose of not letting it get connected to the crime). Why would he introduced the vehicle to the crime scene ? Makes no sense! If he had to go and get tools and he lived too far away which necessitated the use of the car, The tools themselves were in the car, it's still would make more sense for him to just get what he needed put the car back in the hidden location that he initially used and return to the site on foot through the woods.

I drove down that road after the leaves fell, and you can see distance into the woods. You can see the driveway, and also the old Conners Lane extension. Maybe you can see the house at the end of Conners Lane, but I wasn't looking for it, so I didn't see it.
I don't see anyone returning in a vehicle either. Although I do believe that people saw an SUV parked, I am having trouble fitting it into the picture. wouldn't live near by, real stupid to expose himself like that, not well planned. All things I may be wrong about, but I don't think that vehicle had anything to do with this crime... someone pulled over to text, kids getting out of hand in the back seat, something dropped on the floor.. any number of things.
I don't see a need for tools either. what tools? Maybe rope and a bic lighter to start the fire. Hard to carry her and rope maybe without the rope being placed there in advance, but there may not have been rope involve. Her hands could have been bound with his belt. or shoe laces.

 

[ThinkHard]

Just a question but how did Vanessa travel to Princeton each weekend? By train or bus? Or she drove herself? I ask because I think she's connected to the KV case and she has been at the train station leading me to wonder(and I also saw the missing girl who was headed to the metro) could some serial killer be stalking the local transportation or working for it and picking out joggers? And how often did ally brueger use fbkse forms of transportation? And to me I think she was not killed there but he did the fire to make us assume it. I think he brought her there dead and set fire so everyone would assume some person set it up all sadistic and would suspect him less. And someone mentioned people who live close or would be the backyard of and that makes me wonder was she found near any makes backyard or property? Clearly thought out over time as he stalked her and probably had an obsession with her maybe he was a neighbor. Maybe he stalked her back to New York one day and saw karina and followed her and killed her to fulfill his need because it wasn't safe for him to get Vanessa yet. They look so much alike after all. But why haven't they tested the DNA found against the other DNA? That would rule out the same perp

She took a bus from NYC to Worcester. Then she would have been picked up by private car to drive 30 minutes on backroads to get to Princeton. No public transportation exists btw Worcester and Princeton and there are no car rental places there so it would make following her via public transportation to attack her innPrinceton rather challanging.

Not sure where in NYC buses pick up from, I always took the train to Hartford.

 

[ForensicMass]

Great question. Answer you received was incorrect, though it *might* be true in Mass.

This question popped into my mind after the info about the dark SUV was released. I was curious, so googled something like "finding out what car someone drives" -- and bingo! You can use Progressive Insurance's site to find our what car people drive even if they're NOT insured by Progressive. All you need is name, address and birth date. I tested using myself and the complete info on my car came up. Can't recall if color came up - and am working so have limited time at moment. As for birthdays, you should be able to find that info out online for free or for very little cost if you don't know it... Addresses are usually (too) easily found online.

I don't live in MA, but live in a state which also places much weight on citizen's rights to privacy, etc. My state shares many similarities with MA, so thinking Progressive's system should work for MA residents, too - but no guarantee.

Someone may want to check it out.

More to add on other topics, but work becons. Will post soon.

Welcome to our busy newcomer with the appropo username.

ThinkHard -- good to see you back.

Have to say I stand corrected on this one, it was I that stated it could not be done. Though I did briefly just try to use it and decided I didnt want to enter my email and get spammed to death. It may work in Mass as well. I would think this is a blatant violation of privacy, but I guess the insurance companies own us at this point.

 

[ForensicMass]

Have to say I stand corrected on this one, it was I that stated it could not be done. Though I did briefly just try to use it and decided I didnt want to enter my email and get spammed to death. It may work in Mass as well. I would think this is a blatant violation of privacy, but I guess the insurance companies own us at this point.

I used a known address, and in mass it does show every vehicle registered at that address. It does not have color information, though, unfortunately. Which is a major blow to the usefulness in this case.

 

[ForensicMass]

I understand what you are saying and I understand you are basing it on your personal experiences but I am also basing my view on this on my own. And I respectfully disagree with your conclusion...I just don't think it's very likely she would have run into the woods to escape. I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this. Btw I wasn't visiting a foreign country when it happened, I had been living in one for several months at that point and it was in my own neighborhood, so I was familiar with my surroundings.

Btw regarding the perp being from Worcester Fitchburg etc (don't forget Leominster as that's where she grew up). ... but anyway I just wanted to add many people I grew up with who lived in Princeton moved to Worcester, some still live there, some have moved back to another wachusett area town...my point is there are people who are currently Worcester locals or other areas nearby that would still know Princeton because they grew up there and still have friends and family there AND live nearby.

....which is honestly very creepy to me because I know one guy who is a Princeton native, runs a business that would put him in contact with girls VM's age, sometimes drives his uncles dark SUV, has a history of infidelity, and a history of violence against women when they don't put out.

The Princeton Worcester connection (both ways) is certainly intriguing. Person you describe sounds like a good candidate. Where were they on the day? See if you can figure it out !

OK I understand you don't think she ran into the woods. What is your highest ranking Theory on how she got to be 100' in the woods in the "killer with car on BSR" scenario?

 

[ThinkHard]

One last thing before bed. If this guy used a torch as it seems, then what if this guy is from where they ate? A chef or something because they keep those around for creme brûlée and other foods. He could have saw or met her there and stalked her. And just now Reasor she commuted on a bus I even more so think her and KV got stalked by a smart experienced killer who's working for the transportation or stalks the areas. Also what if the guy hit her with the car then tossed her in or pretended to be lost? I believe we will find out the crime scene is the basement or garage etc or a neighbor maybe the dad or the son if there's kn close to her she who coukd have been obsessed. He knew the area or at least studied if each weekend

A kitchen torch is not the same as a blow torch. Also how would a kitchen employee have been able to overhear precisely where she lived and ran?