Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 25

[twinkiesmom]

This theory makes a lot of sense to me (drugged and fell down outside steps)...Any of the Tapas 9 could have discovered the body...would have accounted for the one male Tapas 9 being gone so long from the table...would have accounted for the dogs alerting on the flower bed (if near staircase)....The Tapas 9 who discovered her may have tried to resuscitate but then realized she had died and stashed the body behind the sofa to hide from the twins.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...police-say-Madeleine-died-fall-staircase.html

 

[Barnaby]

This theory makes a lot of sense to me (drugged and fell down outside steps)...Any of the Tapas 9 could have discovered the body...would have accounted for the one male Tapas 9 being gone so long from the table...would have accounted for the dogs alerting on the flower bed (if near staircase)....The Tapas 9 who discovered her may have tried to resuscitate but then realized she had died and stashed the body behind the sofa to hide from the twins.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...police-say-Madeleine-died-fall-staircase.html

I just can't get my head around parents getting a shock like that & being able to jump into action so quickly to instigate a massive cover up. Surely there would be shock, grieving etc. which would impair that ability. Also the child would have had to be dead for two hours to leave the cadaver odour, I doubt that she would have been lying there unseen by anyone for that length of time & the blood dog didn't alert, I think in a fall like that she would have been cut somewhere.
I am just not buying this theory, more like the body was in a bag & placed there sometime later while being transferred to car.

 

[twinkiesmom]

I just can't get my head around parents getting a shock like that & being able to jump into action so quickly to instigate a massive cover up. Surely there would be shock, grieving etc. which would impair that ability. Also the child would have had to be dead for two hours to leave the cadaver odour, I doubt that she would have been lying there unseen by anyone for that length of time & the blood dog didn't alert, I think in a fall like that she would have been cut somewhere.
I am just not buying this theory, more like the body was in a bag & placed there sometime later while being transferred to car.

They were all doctors trained to respond to emergencies without emotion.

There is such a thing as a closed head wound...JBR had one.

And you have to basically ignore all the dog evidence to come up with a scenario in which Madeleine was taken alive.

We do know the Tapas were at the bar for hours...she could have been dead most of the time they were there.

You can surmise from McCann statements as well as the continued sleep of the twins through the entire chaos that Madeleine was given a sedative....the entire building was covered with some sort of stucco material...any fall onto that material could have been fatal for a toddler. We also know that if Madeleine did awake she would have been desperate enough for her parents to attempt an escape...She spent the entire evening crying the night before, and her parents did not come back.

 

[Barnaby]

They were all doctors trained to respond to emergencies without emotion.

There is such a thing as a closed head wound...JBR had one.

And you have to basically ignore all the dog evidence to come up with a scenario in which Madeleine was taken alive.

We do know the Tapas were at the bar for hours...she could have been dead most of the time they were there.

You can surmise from McCann statements as well as the continued sleep of the twins through the entire chaos that Madeleine was given a sedative....the entire building was covered with some sort of stucco material...any fall onto that material could have been fatal for a toddler. We also know that if Madeleine did awake she would have been desperate enough for her parents to attempt an escape...She spent the entire evening crying the night before, and her parents did not come back.

I don't think she was taken alive, I think she died in the apartment by whatever means!

 

[twinkiesmom]

I don't think she was taken alive, I think she died in the apartment by whatever means!

But if you don't believe an intruder took her, clearly there was a cover up...

 

[Barnaby]

But if you don't believe an intruder took her, clearly there was a cover up...

That is most definitely what I believe, a huge cover up!

 

[colomom]

Agreed, cover up is evident.

The question is, how big of a cover up? It runs the gamut from just a Kate and Gerry cover up all the way to The Prime Minister of Great Britain and various persons along the way. The longer this case drags on, the bigger the conspiracy theories become.

I just keep telling myself....I believe in Occam's Razor.

~sigh

 

[Tony Bennett]

Here's another contribution to the debate about Matthew Oldfield's statement - with some observations about Kate and Gerry McCann's contradictory statements about the evening of 2nd/3rd May as well - courtesy of 'Catalina' on another forum:

QUOTE

So let’s just get this straight...at approx. 9 p.m. M.O. goes to check his children, stops and listens outside the windows of the McCann apartment, returns to the Tapas Bar and tells the McCanns that all is quiet so their children are sleeping. So what does GM do? Have another swig of wine and relax a bit longer before checking? No, he gets straight up and goes ‘to check that the children were asleep’. Why, when he has just been told that all was O.K.?

When M.O. goes into the McCanns apartment later - again without being asked, it would appear - he says there is enough light from an artificial source, probably outside the apartment, for him to see the twins asleep in their cots and from this he deduces that the shutter was up. In his statement, he says that the room was dark when Gerry checked the children, but he wouldn’t have known that at the time - he didn’t go inside the first time.

He also says that when Gerry came back from checking on the children, he didn’t mention having met anyone on the way back. Kate says he did.

And I’m a bit puzzled about Madeleine’s comment at breakfast time on May 3rd. According to press interviews, the McCanns said that Madeleine asked Kate why she hadn’t come when she and Sean were crying the night before. In Gerry’s statement he says Madeleine asked him, and in Kate’s statement she says Madeleine asked her. But both statements refer to Madeleine asking why he or she didn’t come “when the TWINS were crying” the night before.

Is all this confusing, or what?!

UNQUOTE

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[twinkiesmom]

I think this case is too convoluted for Occam's Razor...but I believe the dogs and Mrs. Fenn over all else.

 

[Tony Bennett]

Rose Ron, a 4-year-old girl murdered by her stepfather/grandfather.

Another child reported 'missing' - but who was killed within her own family:

http://www.infolive.tv/en/infolive....ndchild-then-dumps-4-year-olds-body-yarkon-ri

[NOTE: This report carries sound as well]

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[Blackwatch]

Agreed, cover up is evident.

The question is, how big of a cover up? It runs the gamut from just a Kate and Gerry cover up all the way to The Prime Minister of Great Britain and various persons along the way. The longer this case drags on, the bigger the conspiracy theories become.

I just keep telling myself....I believe in Occam's Razor.

~sigh

In some ways I agree, colomom. I've read where pedophile rings extend right up to the top brass in governments. Naturally, that's just what I've read.

 

[Tony Bennett]

Blackwatch wrote:

I've read where paedophile rings extend right up to the top brass in governments. Naturally, that's just what I've read.

REPLY:

1. Kincora Boys Home - Northern Ireland.

2. Dunblane tragedy, Scotland (16 children shot dead) - see Cullen Report.

3. North Wales children's homes scandal.

4. Jersey children's homes deaths

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[Barnaby]

Agreed, cover up is evident.

The question is, how big of a cover up? It runs the gamut from just a Kate and Gerry cover up all the way to The Prime Minister of Great Britain and various persons along the way. The longer this case drags on, the bigger the conspiracy theories become.

I just keep telling myself....I believe in Occam's Razor.

~sigh

The level of protection that the McCanns have had is not ordinary, I have always thought that there is more to this & someone big involved, someway!

Rose Ron, a 4-year-old girl murdered by her stepfather/grandfather.

Another child reported 'missing' - but who was killed within her own family:

http://www.infolive.tv/en/infolive....ndchild-then-dumps-4-year-olds-body-yarkon-ri

[NOTE: This report carries sound as well]

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This is truly shocking! However, vaguely familiar with the reports of McCanns wanting to hand over custody of Madeleine, is it not? This mother didn't want her child either!

Blackwatch wrote:

I've read where paedophile rings extend right up to the top brass in governments. Naturally, that's just what I've read.

REPLY:

1. Kincora Boys Home - Northern Ireland.

2. Dunblane tragedy, Scotland (16 children shot dead) - see Cullen Report.

3. North Wales children's homes scandal.

4. Jersey children's homes deaths

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Absolutely! Paedophilia is in a large number of cases associated with those in power!

 

[Dolphinmomcca]

I have been bothered about a couple photographs from the McCann's personal collection for quite some time. These 2 pictures have been credited to Professional Photographer, Paul Grover. I am referring to these:

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w204/iNTERESTEDWOMAN/Maddieinpool.jpg
http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w204/iNTERESTEDWOMAN/i297687177_23774_5.jpg

Here is a little info on Paul Grover:

http://www.paulgroverphotos.co.uk/gallery/index.html

Okay, this guy Paul Grover is a famous potographer. He shoots famous political figures, sports figures, celebrity events. He's an AP photographer who covered Obama's trip to London. Several pictures are credited to him of Obama and David Cameron. He's not the kind of guy you call up one day and say hey, why don't you stop by the house and take some topless pictures of my toddler in her kiddie pool and a family picture of us middle-class family. Not once, but at least twice. These pictures were not taken on the same day, Maddies bangs are longer in the pool picture. Also, the pool picture has been cropped vertically. The pixel dimensions are not equal to the family photo. The height is less, which proves to me, it was cropped to make it look innocent.

I've been trying to find a link between Grover and Brian Kennedy, and since Kennedy is a rich and famous sports team owner, they could know each other from that. I think there is something downright disgusting about Kennedy, Grover and McCann. Anyone have anything you can add on Grover? Why does he take pictures of little middle class topless British girls and US presidential candidates? I smell a rat.

Omg, you can tell Maddie doesnt have a bathing suit on in the picture......which isnt all that weird, cause she is little, but to have some STRANGER taking pics of her naked (or with just bottoms on?? that makes me sick!!

 

[Barnaby]

Omg, you can tell Maddie doesnt have a bathing suit on in the picture......which isnt all that weird, cause she is little, but to have some STRANGER taking pics of her naked (or with just bottoms on?? that makes me sick!!

Makes me sick also! In this day & age where paedophilia is rife why would any decent mother expose her child in this way? Making a child pose naked for a picture like this for a male photographer is SICK! SICK! SICK!

 

[Texana]

Well, I'm going to argue a different tack. The photo of Maddie doesn't look so provocative to me, as it does mischievous. I can see where someone would see it as inappropriate, but I think this is one of those situations where the photog takes interesting! Different! Artsy! Photos of the child! because the parents are just so much more cooler, more educated, and more willing and able to drop large chunks of cash on the "in" photographers.

And within that comes a certain sort of blase response to anyone who might think that the photos without tops or bottoms were inappropriate when done by a stranger--"Why, it's art! How provincial! how naive! to think such a photo is the same as "nekkid" photo!" What is wrong with those people who think such a thing about a child!

That's how they see it, I am very sure.

What it always comes back to, is the extreme lack of judgment, the extremely lacking in sensitivity nature of the McCanns.

You or I might not want our children photographed in such a way. They find it perfectly appropriate. You or I would not leave our children alone in a strange apartment in a foreign country. They find it perfectly "responsible."

 

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

Texana, I understand what you are saying. It makes a lot of sence...we've seen it happen to Miley Cyrus. Even though she's 15, a super star and extremely wealthy, (and not a toddler of a middle class family), it was still bad judgement and exploiting a minor child. The end result is a missing (abducted by a paedophile?) toddler.

I've seen the most precious pictures of children that are fully clothed, that I would consider true art. I guess it all has to do with what the adults of the family are "into". My DH is "into" Nebraska football...guess how many baby pictures we have of our children dressed in Cornhusker gear...More than I care to count...LOL

 

[teacherbees]

My sister-in-law uses a celebrity photographer for her three children. This guy does fabulous work, but you pay through the nose for his exquisite art. He's in the LA area and has some very famous clients.

In all the artsy, beautiful photo shoots I've seen of my 2 nephews and 1 niece, I've never once seen anything even remotely provocative.

You can be artistic, daring and different without exploiting a three year old. But, as others have mentioned, it's all in the taste and preference of the parents. I remember a set of picture with JonBenet where she's in a bathing suit and straddling some kind of pool toy. There's something wrong with those pictures - I can only imagine that they're every pedophile's dream - as are so many of the Lolita images of a sexed-up JonBenet. It's sickening to think that she was five and six years old in those provacative looking phots we always see of her with big hair, adult outfits and pouty, suggestive looks. Makes my skin crawl to think of them.

Our children can't protect themselves - it becomes our sacred duty to make sure they are NOT exploited in any way.

 

[daffodil]

How do any of you KNOW the photographer was a "stranger"? I dont know how you can even TELL Madeleine had no bathing suit on-I cant.In the case of JonBenet John Mark Karr said he PREFERRED little girls looking like little girls ie wearing cut offs,shorts,playsuits,hair in pigtails type appearance.I would hazard a guess many paedophiles prefer them that way and not dressed as mini adults.

 

[Barnaby]

My sister-in-law uses a celebrity photographer for her three children. This guy does fabulous work, but you pay through the nose for his exquisite art. He's in the LA area and has some very famous clients.

In all the artsy, beautiful photo shoots I've seen of my 2 nephews and 1 niece, I've never once seen anything even remotely provocative.

You can be artistic, daring and different without exploiting a three year old. But, as others have mentioned, it's all in the taste and preference of the parents. I remember a set of picture with JonBenet where she's in a bathing suit and straddling some kind of pool toy. There's something wrong with those pictures - I can only imagine that they're every pedophile's dream - as are so many of the Lolita images of a sexed-up JonBenet. It's sickening to think that she was five and six years old in those provacative looking phots we always see of her with big hair, adult outfits and pouty, suggestive looks. Makes my skin crawl to think of them.

Our children can't protect themselves - it becomes our sacred duty to make sure they are NOT exploited in any way.

Agree with everything you say teacher & particularly the last comment!